Rules question re Out of Bounds

Tis_yer_woman

Rules question re Out of Bounds

Playing in an interclub ladies foursomes match last week and we had an 'altercation' with our opponents over the rules; my partner teed off on a dog leg right hole and tried to take the dog leg - but she hit timber and ball came back and landed 20/30 feet behind the trees. Our opponents are in fairly good position after a good drive. I then punched our ball back onto the fairway. On we went hoping to get a half out of the hole. But then our opponents called us back to say that our drive had actually landed in Out of Bounds and that we had taken our second shot from out of bounds. 2 issues: -> Issue 1 -> the out of bounds wasn't clearly marked - it looked like the out of bounds white markers (well, they weren't even OB markers, they were more like thin white plastic poles normally erected to protect the green e.g.) had been pulled up and thrown in the shrubbery (by the greenkeeper we assume). Issue 2 -> we had hit our second ball so was it not too late to call the error? Can anyone shed any light on what the rules are regarding this incident or what we should have done....?

aster99

My first thoughts would be that your opponents were probably right

Jul3s

Tis_yer_woman wrote: »

Rules question re Out of Bounds

Playing in an interclub ladies foursomes match last week and we had an 'altercation' with our opponents over the rules; my partner teed off on a dog leg right hole and tried to take the dog leg - but she hit timber and ball came back and landed 20/30 feet behind the trees. Our opponents are in fairly good position after a good drive. I then punched our ball back onto the fairway. On we went hoping to get a half out of the hole. But then our opponents called us back to say that our drive had actually landed in Out of Bounds and that we had taken our second shot from out of bounds. 2 issues: -> Issue 1 -> the out of bounds wasn't clearly marked - it looked like the out of bounds white markers (well, they weren't even OB markers, they were more like thin white plastic poles normally erected to protect the green e.g.) had been pulled up and thrown in the shrubbery (by the greenkeeper we assume). Issue 2 -> we had hit our second ball so was it not too late to call the error? Can anyone shed any light on what the rules are regarding this incident or what we should have done....?

Issue 1, if ye were unsure about the OOB ye should have called for a ruling from a GUI offical if present, if there wasn't one present then get the team captains and ask them to work it out.
Issue 2, it is not too late for them to question ye, in matchplay it is only too late after you tee off from the next teeing ground or in the case of the 18th (or final hole) when you have walked off the green.

Tis_yer_woman

No GUI official present. Team captains couldn't work it out as there were no markings. Re hitting second shot - how could they prove as to where I had actually hit from?

Jul3s

Tis_yer_woman wrote: »

No GUI official present. Team captains couldn't work it out as there were no markings. Re hitting second shot - how could they prove as to where I had actually hit from?

Wow sounds like a complete joke. Was there no one present from the home club that could clarify the OOB line?
With regard to them having to prove where you hit it from, why would there be a need for them to prove anything, surely you are not going to lie?.

Tis_yer_woman

Nobody around as it was an evening match. Wasn't going to lie but when you're talking about OOB, an inch could mean the difference between being out of bounds or in bounds. And how could anyone know exactly where the second shot had been hit from.

But even from an approximate location, it wasn't clear as to whether the ball was in or out. Certainly a lot of it down to the course not being clearly marked.

nocal

From the R&A website:

“Out of bounds’’ is beyond the boundaries of the course or any part of the course so marked by the Committee.
When out of bounds is defined by reference to stakes or a fence or as being beyond stakes or a fence, the out of bounds line is determined by the nearest inside points at ground level of the stakes or fence posts (excluding angled supports). When both stakes and lines are used to indicate out of bounds, the stakes identify out of bounds and the lines define out of bounds.
When out of bounds is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is out of bounds. The out of bounds line extends vertically upwards and downwards.
A ball is out of bounds when all of it lies out of bounds. A player may stand out of bounds to play a ball lying within bounds.
Objects defining out of bounds such as walls, fences, stakes and railings are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed. Stakes identifying out of bounds are not obstructions and are deemed to be fixed.
Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define out of bounds should be white.
Note 2: A Committee may make a Local Rule declaring stakes identifying but not defining out of bounds to be movable obstructions.


From reading this, there is no obligation that stakes must be used to mark out of bounds.

My first thoughts are that it should have been possible to identify exactly where the out of bounds line was (even if the markers identifying it had been moved). Then it should have been possible to agree where the ball had been played from. If the ball had been played from out of bounds then the penalty for doing so would apply.

If the ball had been played from within bounds then the hole continues. Without determining where the out of bounds was exactly and where the ball is played from then I think it is impossible to resolve the issue.

Jul3s

Tis_yer_woman wrote: »

Nobody around as it was an evening match. Wasn't going to lie but when you're talking about OOB, an inch could mean the difference between being out of bounds or in bounds. And how could anyone know exactly where the second shot had been hit from.

But even from an approximate location, it wasn't clear as to whether the ball was in or out. Certainly a lot of it down to the course not being clearly marked.

Yea sounds like a mess with the OOB not clearly defined, how did ye proceed in the end?

Tis_yer_woman

The reference to OB on the card said that it would have to be marked by stakes, railings, etc.

And yes, I agree that it was impossible to resolve the issue. So how should the game have continued?

Woodgate

Interesting why the home club members left you play from OOB without telling you until afterwards, surely better for them to be fair and tell you as you had to hit 3 off the tee then anyway. Very bad "sportsmanship". Pure stupidity not knowing OOB on your own course, but knowing when to call it even if not correct. Hope you won the match.

Jul3s

Tis_yer_woman wrote: »

The reference to OB on the card said that it would have to be marked by stakes, railings, etc.

And yes, I agree that it was impossible to resolve the issue. So how should the game have continued?

I think you'd have to be able to define the OOB, one way or the other in order to proceed, was there no OOB stakes fixed in the ground?.

nocal

Tis_yer_woman wrote: »

The reference to OB on the card said that it would have to be marked by stakes, railings, etc.

And yes, I agree that it was impossible to resolve the issue. So how should the game have continued?

My best guess is by determining whether you played a ball that was out of bounds or not and agreeing this with your opponents.

Whatever the situation, it was exceptionally bad sportsmanship displayed by your opponents.

Tis_yer_woman

There were white posts up to a point....but it seemed that the other 'posts' had been removed for whatever reason.

We were 3 up on that hole.....as no=one was giving in, our team manager decided to concede the hole. But we won it on the 17th. But as you can imagine, atmosphere wasn't great afterwards.

nocal

From the white posts that were there was it possible to determine the out of bounds line?

I think your manager did the right thing and thankfully you did the right thing by winning. No surprise that the atmosphere stank afterwards but then that is totally down to your opponents. Unfortunately it seems that the claws come out too often in competitions like that and you have to be prepared for such events.

Tis_yer_woman

As far as we were concerned, it wasn't possible to determine the OB. If we got a ruling that the ball was OB, then so be it. But we couldn't as there were no-one around to give independent ruling.

The altercation caused about a 40 minute delay - and my team manager conceded as it appeared that it was only the most stubborn going to win out here.

Thanks everybody for their contribution - really appreciate the feedback.

Jul3s

Yea it wasn't ideal, but I think you're team captain did the right thing.

Kace

Which course and hole number are you talking about here ?

Tis_yer_woman

The 14th in Mount Wolseley

golfwallah

R&A Rule 33-2 - The Course
a. Defining Bounds and Margins
The Committee must define accurately:
(i) the course and out of bounds

The reference to OB on the card said that it would have to be marked by stakes, railings, etc.
The rule is obligatory in that it specifies that the committee must define the boundary and this is on the card.
In my view it follows that no markings, no OB.
You could refer this to the ILGU, but as you won anyway this hardly seems worth it. If you want, you could also get your club to write to Mount Wolseley and lodge a complaint. This might elicit an apology.
As they say, “there’s nowt as quare as folk”.

downthemiddle

golfwallah wrote: »

R&A Rule 33-2 - The Course
a. Defining Bounds and Margins
The Committee must define accurately:
(i) the course and out of bounds

The reference to OB on the card said that it would have to be marked by stakes, railings, etc.
The rule is obligatory in that it specifies that the committee must define the boundary and this is on the card.
In my view it follows that no markings, no OB.

+1 but there again you have probably heard this already

Garda S Horgan

oob needs to be marked. If it's marked by white stakes then the stakes really should be in the ground. You can't mark it by stakes thrown into shrubbery.
If that was the case, old stakes that we see on all courses which are thrown into the ditch would mean that an OOB line would go from a stake back to the old stake and back to the next upright stake, so creating a triangle of in-bounds where it should really be OOB. It's up to the club to mark the OOB correctly, and I would have been asking them to show me where the line is, even if it's a line from a stake thrown in shrubs. If you're miles out then fair enough, but if it's debatable as to whether or not you are in bounds then I would not be accepting a penalty in that case.
Yours etc,
GSH.

Dtoffee

Are all white stakes on a course considered O/B ? one of my playing partners recently pushed his approach shot out right towards the pathway to the next green. When he arrived, the pathway was marked out by white stakes with a blue rope from stake to stake and his ball had crossed the line of stakes but was playable. Our other partner said he was out of bounds, he claimed it was not O/B and I didnt know the answer. The card was no help as this area was not clearly defined and was only about 20 feet long before it met a hedge and the white stakes stopped (prob no more than 5/6 stakes were used). In the end I told the player to make his own call and ask later, it actually made no difference to his score as he was well over par but he just headed off after the game and we forgot to ask. Also there were other areas of GUR marked out with these white stakes and blue ropes and the stakes are slightly thinner that the OB stakes we noticed around the course. Clear as mud !

fullstop

Dtoffee wrote: »

Are all white stakes on a course considered O/B ? one of my playing partners recently pushed his approach shot out right towards the pathway to the next green. When he arrived, the pathway was marked out by white stakes with a blue rope from stake to stake and his ball had crossed the line of stakes but was playable. Our other partner said he was out of bounds, he claimed it was not O/B and I didnt know the answer. The card was no help as this area was not clearly defined and was only about 20 feet long before it met a hedge and the white stakes stopped (prob no more than 5/6 stakes were used). In the end I told the player to make his own call and ask later, it actually made no difference to his score as he was well over par but he just headed off after the game and we forgot to ask. Also there were other areas of GUR marked out with these white stakes and blue ropes and the stakes are slightly thinner that the OB stakes we noticed around the course. Clear as mud !

No, sounds like those were stakes just to stop people taking trolleys too close to the green, you often see them along the side of teeboxes too. The white stakes for OOB generally define the boundary of the course, and in some cases internal OOB, but those are usually detailed on the back of the card under local rules.

billy3sheets

A ball is out of bounds when all of it lies out of bounds. A player may stand out of bounds to play a ball lying within bounds.

Playing in a practice round last Thursday my ball was sitting on the white paint line marking the OOB. Wasn't 100% sure of this ruling but played it as in bounds. Didn't matter much as it was practice but we were playing for a euro, so it could have got nasty!

ForeRight

billy3sheets wrote: »

A ball is out of bounds when all of it lies out of bounds. A player may stand out of bounds to play a ball lying within bounds.

Playing in a practice round last Thursday my ball was sitting on the white paint line marking the OOB. Wasn't 100% sure of this ruling but played it as in bounds. Didn't matter much as it was practice but we were playing for a euro, so it could have got nasty!

I've always been under the impression that on the line was out???

First Up

ForeRight wrote:

I've always been under the impression that on the line was out???

Its a bit tricky. If OB is marked by a painted line, then the whole ball has to be out. But if it marked by a trench or a burned line, then you are usually OB if you are in the trench or on the burn mark (unless a local rule says otherwise.)

It should be stated clearly on the card. If not and if you can't get a ruling at the time, the usual procedure is to play two balls - one under each possible interpretation.

Fun isn't it?

ForeRight

First Up wrote: »

Its a bit tricky. If OB is marked by a painted line, then the whole ball has to be out. But if it marked by a trench or a burned line, then you are usually OB if you are in the trench or on the burn mark (unless a local rule says otherwise.)

It should be stated clearly on the card. If not and if you can't get a ruling at the time, the usual procedure is to play two balls - one under each possible interpretation.

Fun isn't it?

Ah golf.... such a simple game

downthemiddle

I can't believe this thread was bumped the weekend the club unveiled a bench in memory of the team captain mentioned by the OP. It's amazing how such coincidences occur in life.