Ship bound for Gaza

Hawkeye123

Dr Fintan Lane and his friends will be leaving to join a ship bound for Gaza this weekend. I am not sure if this endeavour is sponsored or supported by the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign but I do have some thoughts on the matter. Firstly, let me say that I have sympathy for those innocent Palestinian children who are the unfortunate victims of a conflict which began long before they were born. I also believe that shipping humanitarian aid to those in need is to be commended.

Apparently, the ship’s crew hope to reach Gaza by breaking through the Israeli blockade. On this point, I have concerns. To begin, from a purely PR perspective – I believe this strategy is a mistake because it ignores the legitimate Israeli concern that direct shipments to Gaza may contain missiles for use against Israel. By supporting this direct shipment to Gaza, the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign may be misunderstood. For example, People may think that organisation is not pro Palestinian but simply anti Israeli - after all, what good will the ship’s cargo do if it is confiscated by the Israeli coast guard. One alternative - I would suggest, would be for the organisers of the shipment to explain their charitable intentions to the Israelis and ask permission to bring the cargo to Gaza via Israel. This strategy would allow the Israeli authorities full access to the cargo for inspection purposes while respecting any decisions they make on items they consider to be contraband. I know that officially, contraband includes all kinds of everything (to quote Dana’s song). However, by being honest, up-front and respectful of the Israeli state and by recognising Israel’s legitimate concerns – I believe the Israelis themselves would reciprocate by contributing to this consignment with a generosity the agitators on the ship may not have given them credit for.

An alternative idea I would tentatively like to put to the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign is this – why not suggest to the authorities in Gaza that they consider a new use for their underground tunnels – other then smuggling missiles for use against Israel. That way, not only would the people of Gaza get their supplies but the Israeli goodwill which would result from not being bombed would no doubt be reciprocated - and this in turn would further benefit the people living in Gaza. I fervently believe that the state of Israel is potentially the best thing that ever happened to the Middle East. Israel will be a wonderful benefactor to Gaza when the missile bombardment from Gaza eventually stops.

The Jewish people have always been renowned for their entrepreneurial zeal and business savvy so the state of Israel is potentially a great trading partner to those of its neighbours which choose to engage in trade and commerce. By the same token, it is probably these same attributes which make the thought of a Jewish state such an abomination in the eyes of socialist zealots who prefer regimes with state monopolies. Socialist zealots also like the notion of self reliance – so much so that their ideology is too narrow to accommodate God. This anti-religion aspect of socialism is perhaps another reason why a state and nation built upon and based on religion is so difficult for the ultra-left to comprehend. The reason I mention the far left is because of my observation of the socialist zealots here in Ireland, many of whom seem hell-bent on blaming Israel for everything. At the same time, these socialists seem fond of drawing a false analogy - comparing the Palestinians with the Irish. This is ironic, given that the true analogy is that of the mutual Irish/Israeli experience both of which involved surviving colonisation, occupation, dispossession and genocide. Food for thought.

Einhard

Perhaps they could divert to Benghazi or Misrata while they're at it. Pretty sure the people of both cities are in need of humanitarian aid. Also, has nobody informed this group that the Egyptian border crossing is now open? They're gonna run a non-existent blockade!

JustinDee

It is not an humanitarian mission, despite the claims of its protagonists. It is a political act designed to provoke Israeli defence and coastguard into doing something stupid.

An humanitarian mission would dock in Cairo and enter Gaza via
Rafah.
The goods and raw materials on-board vessels are secondary to their aims.

Irresponsible and any consequences are on the organisers' heads, Galloway et al included.

Fintan Lane should use the time to consider his opposition on peaceful solutions to his own homeland's problems with violence.

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

It is not an humanitarian mission, despite the claims of its protagonists. It is a political act designed to provoke Israeli defence and coastguard into doing something stupid.

An humanitarian mission would dock in Cairo and enter Gaza via
Rafah.
The goods and raw materials on-board vessels are secondary to their aims.

Irresponsible and any consequences are on the organisers' heads, Galloway et al included.

Fintan Lane should use the time to consider his opposition on peaceful solutions to his own homeland's problems with violence.

And what have you ever done, either for humanitarian missions abroad or at home?

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

And what have you ever done, either for humanitarian missions abroad or at home?

Whatever I have done or wherever I have been or lived bears nothing on the fact on political activists claiming to be on an humanitarian mission when clearly not.

Never mind me. I'm not the issue here nor am I obliged to divulge anything about myself to anyone sitting behind an anonymous name on the internet safe behind a firewall.
Poor, sly and irrelevant tact.

karma_

Einhard wrote: »

Perhaps they could divert to Benghazi or Misrata while their at it. Pretty sure the people of both cities are in need of humanitarian aid. Also, has nobody informed this group that the Egyptian border crossing is now open? They're gonna run a non-existent blockade!

At the very least the people of Libya have NATO allegedly doing something for them, who have the Palestinians?

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

At the very least the people of Libya have NATO allegedly doing something for them, who have the Palestinians?

Their former occupiers, Syria and its proxy Iran, Hizbullah in Lebanon and now for the first time since Nasser, Egypt, another former occupier.

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

Their former occupiers, Syria and its proxy Iran, Hizbullah in Lebanon and now for the first time since Nasser, Egypt, another former occupier.

Stop being obtuse, all those have a selfish interest, I'm talking about humanitarian aid, as you well know.

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

Stop being obtuse, all those have a selfish interest, I'm talking about humanitarian aid, as you well know.

I'm not being obtuse and as I pointed out earlier, while what it carries is, this flotilla is not an humanitarian mission. It is political as is support for Palestinians from the countries in my post.
I suggest you read up a little more on aid to the people there and where it comes from.

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

I'm not being obtuse and as I pointed out earlier, while what it carries is, this flotilla is not an humanitarian mission. It is political as is support for Palestinians from the countries in my post.
I suggest you read up a little more on aid to the people there and where it comes from.

Of course it's political, it is also humanitarian.

KeithAFC

JustinDee wrote: »

It is not an humanitarian mission, despite the claims of its protagonists. It is a political act designed to provoke Israeli defence and coastguard into doing something stupid.

An humanitarian mission would dock in Cairo and enter Gaza via
Rafah.
The goods and raw materials on-board vessels are secondary to their aims.

Irresponsible and any consequences are on the organisers' heads, Galloway et al included.

Fintan Lane should use the time to consider his opposition on peaceful solutions to his own homeland's problems with violence.

George Galloway is on board?

I agree with you. It is nothing but PR for the people on board and a political message. Stop trying to bait the IDF.

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

Of course it's political, it is also humanitarian.

That is not what the organisers on the Irish section claim. Their line to the public is that it is not political. It is all about getting the aid there and is only humanitarian. The line 'Stay Human' is a quote of a former activist who happened to be executed by Palestinians there.

I see them as pawns, not aid workers. Should be delivered via Cairo.

JustinDee

KeithAFC wrote: »

George Galloway is on board?

No, he has a show to do on Iranian 'news' channel, Press TV. Is happy to send his 'Viva Palestina' followers head-on however.

Wolfe Tone

Hope everything goes well for them. Its highlighting the plight of the Palestinians.

dlofnep

So how do you suggest Palestinians receive building materials for houses? Should they continue to live in tents because Israel dictates what can or cannot come into their territory?

The mission is both political and humanitarian. At least they are doing something. I wish them the best of luck. They are courageous, and despite the dangers - continue to put their lives at risk to bring much needed aid to an impoverished people.

JustinDee

dlofnep wrote: »

So how do you suggest Palestinians receive building materials for houses? Should they continue to live in tents because Israel dictates what can or cannot come into their territory?

I already pointed out where they should go. The Rafah crossing, manned by Egypt, is open and aid already gets into Gaza this way.

dlofnep wrote: »

The mission is both political and humanitarian. At least they are doing something. I wish them the best of luck. They are courageous, and despite the dangers - continue to put their lives at risk to bring much needed aid to an impoverished people.

As the crossing is open, they (the organisers) needlessly "continue to put their (people on board flotilla craft) lives at risk".

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

That is not what the organisers on the Irish section claim. Their line to the public is that it is not political. It is all about getting the aid there and is only humanitarian. The line 'Stay Human' is a quote of a former activist who happened to be executed by Palestinians there.

I see them as pawns, not aid workers. Should be delivered via Cairo.

Does it matter how the aid is delivered as long as it gets to where it's going.

JustinDee wrote: »

No, he has a show to do on Iranian 'news' channel, Press TV. Is happy to send his 'Viva Palestina' followers head-on however.

So what where he does an interview? If he speaks his mind and tells truths does it matter?

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

Does it matter how the aid is delivered as long as it gets to where it's going

Of course it matters. The responsibility of an aid organisation to the safety of its workers or volunteers is paramount. When there is a safer option for the same objective, they take it.

karma_ wrote: »

So what where he does an interview? If he speaks his mind and tells truths does it matter?

Your faith in Galloway is obvious. I don't share it. Nor in 'pacifist' Fintan Lane.

dlofnep

JustinDee wrote: »

I already pointed out where they should go. The Rafah crossing, manned by Egypt, is open and aid already gets into Gaza this way.

WRONG.

Israel controls goods movement through the Rafah crossing. Only basic consumer goods are allowed to pass - but building materials for homes and other various cargo are not.

JustinDee wrote: »

As the crossing is open, they (the organisers) needlessly "continue to put their (people on board flotilla craft) lives at risk".

No - the only one putting any people's lives at risk is Israel.

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course it matters. The responsibility of an aid organisation to the safety of its workers or volunteers is paramount. When there is a safer option for the same objective, they take it.


Your faith in Galloway is obvious. I don't share it. Nor in 'pacifist' Fintan Lane.

You're not the issue here nor you obliged to divulge anything about yourself to anyone sitting behind an anonymous name on the internet safe behind a firewall, you just criticise others who do something about it instead.

dlofnep

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course it matters. The responsibility of an aid organisation to the safety of its workers or volunteers is paramount. When there is a safer option for the same objective, they take it.

There is no other option for the same objective. Stop lieing. Israel controls all cargo into Gaza.

JustinDee

dlofnep wrote: »

WRONG.

Israel controls goods movement through the Rafah crossing. Only basic consumer goods are allowed to pass - but building materials for homes are not. Hence to flotilla

The Egyptian ruling council has already advised that the flotilla enter via their country as with the three previous aid convoys that have already completed their mission.

JustinDee

dlofnep wrote: »

There is no other option for the same objective. Stop lieing. Israel controls all cargo into Gaza.

I'm not lying! Ignore everything that has happened in the past month all you wish. It doesn't change the fact that aid convoys have reached Gaza via Rafah already and with the aid of the Egyptians.

Ffs.

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

You're not the issue here nor you obliged to divulge anything about yourself to anyone sitting behind an anonymous name on the internet safe behind a firewall, you just criticise others who do something about it instead.

I didn't criticise you at all. I said I don't share the same credence in everything George Galloway preaches.

dlofnep

JustinDee wrote: »

I'm not lying! Ignore everything that has happened in the past month all you wish. It doesn't change the fact that aid convoys have reached Gaza via Rafah already and with the aid of the Egyptians.

Ffs.

Don't be obtuse! I have already pointed out that ISRAEL controls Cargo at all entry points into Gaza, including the Rafah crossing. Therefore, anything on the Israeli blacklist (such as building materials) will not enter Gaza.

So it doesn't matter if Convoy's make it to Rafah as the same inherent problem exists - Israel controls ALL cargo and decides what enters and what is blacklisted from Gaza.

So yes - you are lieing, flat out lieing to suggest that "When there is a safer option for the same objective, they take it." - It is not the same objective, because the 'safer' option blocks specific materials and items. The Flotilla wishes to end this blockade, which has forced Palestinians to live in woeful conditions - many living in tents for over a year.

karma_

JustinDee wrote: »

I didn't criticise you at all. I said I don't share the same credence in everything George Galloway preaches.

I was referring to the people on the boat.

JustinDee

dlofnep wrote: »

Don't be obtuse! I have already pointed out that ISRAEL controls Cargo at all entry points into Gaza, including the Rafah crossing. Therefore, anything on the Israeli blacklist (such as building materials) will not enter Gaza.

So it doesn't matter if Convoy's make it to Rafah as the same inherent problem exists - Israel controls ALL cargo and decides what enters and what is blacklisted from Gaza.

Before you post the same point again, do you even know what kind of aid made it through previously?

JustinDee

karma_ wrote: »

I was referring to the people on the boat.

I take issue with what I see as a lie in some of the Irish interviewees claiming that the mission is purely humanitarian. It isn't. As I said, it is a political action.

Nodin

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

The Jewish people have always been renowned for their entrepreneurial zeal and business savvy so the state of Israel is potentially a great trading partner to those of its neighbours which choose to engage in trade and commerce. By the same token, it is probably these same attributes which make the thought of a Jewish state such an abomination in the eyes of socialist zealots who prefer regimes with state monopolies. Socialist zealots also like the notion of self reliance – so much so that their ideology is too narrow to accommodate God. This anti-religion aspect of socialism is perhaps another reason why a state and nation built upon and based on religion is so difficult for the ultra-left to comprehend. The reason I mention the far left is because of my observation of the socialist zealots here in Ireland, many of whom seem hell-bent on blaming Israel for everything. At the same time, these socialists seem fond of drawing a false analogy - comparing the Palestinians with the Irish. This is ironic, given that the true analogy is that of the mutual Irish/Israeli experience both of which involved surviving colonisation, occupation, dispossession and genocide. Food for thought.

You might do better to aqquaint yourself with the history of Israel, and many of its founders socialist beliefs, before launching such diatribes.

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

.........................................................
Your faith in Galloway is obvious. I don't share it. Nor in 'pacifist' Fintan Lane.

Would you be as good as to explain the 'pacifist' remark there, please?

dlofnep

JustinDee wrote: »

Before you post the same point again, do you even know what kind of aid made it through previously?

You're obviously naive if you believe sufficient supplies are entering.

But Najjar is not part of a hip, green revolution. In Gaza, organic agriculture has grown out of a concern for safe supplies of food. When Hamas took control in 2007, Israel imposed a crippling blockade. Not only were a number of foods blocked from entering, but stocks of pesticides and fertilisers also dried up. Israeli officials have said militants can use agricultural chemicals to make rockets.

Food insecurity among Gaza's 1.6 million people rose, and 80% became reliant on food aid, according to the Word Food Programme. Najjar was one of them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/17/palestinian-organic-food-security-collard, June 17, 2011

Dozens of Rafah and Khan Younis residents in the south of the Gaza Strip Saturday blocked summer activities held by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) in protest against the latter’s failure to rebuild their homes destroyed by the 2008-2009 Israeli military onslaught on the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli army destroyed over 90,000 houses and displaced almost 20,000 Palestinians in its war, which lasted for 21 days, on the Gaza Strip and which started late in December 2008, according to local statistics.

Representatives of the families said UNRWA had promised to rebuild their homes but had not yet, forcing them to continue living in dismal and very difficult conditions.

UNRWA said it was not able to rebuild the homes because of the Israeli blockade imposed on the Gaza Strip since 2006, when Hamas formed its first ever Palestinian government following its victory in legislative elections.

While the Israeli military onslaught had augmented Gaza’s housing crisis, the tight Israeli blockade that prevents entry of the most basic building material had also played a major role.

Osama al-Saadawi, director general of the Palestinian Housing Council in Gaza, said the Gaza Strip needs more than 65,000 residential units to face the continuous population growth and to house the huge number of Palestinians who lost their homes in the Israeli war on Gaza.

He told WAFA that “85,502 houses were damaged during the Israeli war on Gaza, 3584 houses were severely damaged, whereas 4455 were completely destroyed, which caused the displacement of 19,440 Palestinians.”

According to Osama Kuhail, head of the contractors union, it is important to reconstruct Gaza based on a comprehensive development plan. He said “Gaza’s losses were estimated at more than $1 billion due to the Israeli assault.”

He said that “despite of the massive destruction in Gaza, Israel was still prohibiting import of cement and iron for construction needs.”

Palestinians whose houses were destroyed by the Israeli onslaught live now in either rented apartments or tents under very bad humanitarian conditions.

Kuhail said that “all development and construction projects were temporarily put on hold due to lack of essential materials.”

http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=16468, June 18th, 2011

That's the reality on the ground.

JustinDee

dlofnep wrote: »

You're obviously naive if you believe sufficient supplies are entering

Don't mince my words. I never said anything about 'sufficiency'. I said the crossing is the option to take for an humanitarian mission.

Egypt is ready to take docking of flotilla and has advised they proceed to Gaza through Egyptian territory via Rafah crossing.

dlofnep

JustinDee wrote: »

Don't mince my words. I never said anything about 'sufficiency'. I said the crossing is the option to take for an humanitarian mission.

Egypt is ready to take docking of flotilla and has advised they proceed to Gaza through Egyptian territory via Rafah crossing.

Israel controls goods that enter from the Rafah crossing. I have already highlighted this. Transport of goods is at Israel's discretion. While Israel has allowed sporadic housing projects - the requirements far exceed any allowances.

So to sum it up - Israel's blockade is hindering infrastructural development in Gaza, farming and general social development. This is the reality. So stop pretending as if the Rafah crossing is the answer to all of the problems of the blockade - it isn't. That is why the Flotilla is enroute - to bring NEEDED materials, and to END the blockade. It is both a humanitarian and political mission.

JustinDee

dlofnep wrote: »

It is both a humanitarian and political mission.

Not according to those travelling that are attempting to drum up support in media.
Its not me pretending.
Which route is safer to attempt? Don't bother answering. Its rhetorical as it has already been bloody well pointed out.
They're pawn sacrifices. Not 'aid workers' as claimed.

Lockstep

The speed with which this thread descended into trench warfare shows it's not really politics café material.

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

Not according to those travelling that are attempting to drum up support in media.
Its not me pretending.
Which route is safer to attempt? Don't bother answering. Its rhetorical as it has already been bloody well pointed out.
They're pawn sacrifices. Not 'aid workers' as claimed.

Terrible the way you have to chase people for answers these days.....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72969658&postcount=30

blahfckingblah

nodin i dont fanct your chances getting an answer, it was just a throwaway comment to dismiss people with a different view than him

Nodin

blahfckingblah wrote: »

nodin i dont fanct your chances getting an answer, it was just a throwaway comment to dismiss people with a different view than him

The lack of an answer can be quite telling too. Its why questions are well worth asking.

JustinDee

blahfckingblah wrote: »

nodin i dont fanct your chances getting an answer, it was just a throwaway comment to dismiss people with a different view than him

Forgive me for not being at computer all day.
I don't find provocation for an aggressive response when there are alternatives, the action of a 'pacifist'. That's why.
Now if I don't respond to any sanctimonious decrying of my own view, don't go weeping a sook. I'm just elsewhere.

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

Forgive me for not being at computer all day.
I don't find provocation for an aggressive response when there are alternatives, the action of a 'pacifist'. .

I believe some said the same about this....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha

Denerick

I'd rather people didn't go on about this. Its just an exercise for affluent pinko's from middle class families to delude themselves that they are somehow helping the 'resistance'. Fight on brother!

Sooner or later these people will get jobs in the real world, wear pin stripe suits, and listen to lyric fm in their brand new BMWs.

Denerick

dlofnep wrote: »

That is why the Flotilla is enroute - to bring NEEDED materials, and to END the blockade. It is both a humanitarian and political mission.

I think you have far too high an opinion of human motives. The flotilla is essentially a middle class/studentish holiday for the temporarily radical. Some people follow the G8 summits and have their political holiday for a weekend, this flotilla is in the same vein.

dlofnep

Denerick wrote: »

I think you have far too high an opinion of human motives. The flotilla is essentially a middle class/studentish holiday for the temporarily radical.

Ah yes - a classic ad hominem attack on activists. Can't defeat their argument so you try to defeat their character. I know two local Sinn Féin councillors who are going to be on this Flotilla, and I assure you - they are not going for a "middle class/studentish holiday" - Whatever the hell that is anyways.

Denerick wrote: »

Some people follow the G8 summits and have their political holiday for a weekend, this flotilla is in the same vein.

No, it is not. The Flotilla is there for exactly the reasons I stated, no more - no less. A humanitarian mission, with political overtones - looking to bringing legitimate aid, and highlight in a political fashion - the immoral blockade of Gaza.

Now if you can be actually arsed to venture beyond predictable ad hominem bollocks, I'll be more than happy to discuss why the Flotilla is going to Gaza. But if you're intent on attempting to bypass that, by attacking the characters of people you have never met - then you're not worth the energy it takes to press my highly sensitive keys on my laptop. (Which isn't much).

Nodin

Denerick wrote: »

I'd rather people didn't go on about this. Its just an exercise for affluent pinko's from middle class families to delude themselves that they are somehow helping the 'resistance'. Fight on brother!

Sooner or later these people will get jobs in the real world, wear pin stripe suits, and listen to lyric fm in their brand new BMWs.

...not that you'd tar all with the same brush or anything.

Denerick

I believe my observations are a little too close to the truth, and has provoked the expected reaction. Alas.

blahfckingblah

on a slightly lighter note any idea where the flotilla is at present and when its expected to arrive?

blahfckingblah

so you only typed to look for a reaction? because theres no way every single person involved is how you described

Denerick

blahfckingblah wrote: »

so you only typed to look for a reaction? because theres no way every single person involved is how you described

Not all of course, there are exceptions. I didn't type it for a reaction, I believe it to be true, the fact that there was a reaction seems to support the supposition. I've seen plenty of student radical types over the years, they nearly always end up devoured by bourgeoisie inevitability. They enjoy their political holiday immensely, that is the entire purpose of the expedition. Cynicism is often maligned as being dreadfully boorish, but as a great Irishman once said:

“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it."

Nodin

Denerick wrote: »

I believe my observations are a little too close to the truth, and has provoked the expected reaction. Alas.

Bizarre. I must have missed out on my middle class student years. And I seem to have missed the bourgeoisie dénouement thats meant to follow too.....

I feel hard done by now.

paulaa

Denerick wrote: »

I'd rather people didn't go on about this. Its just an exercise for affluent pinko's from middle class families to delude themselves that they are somehow helping the 'resistance'. Fight on brother!

Sooner or later these people will get jobs in the real world, wear pin stripe suits, and listen to lyric fm in their brand new BMWs.

There will be approx. 1,500 people aboard the flotilla from across 100 countries. There are over 15 ships sailing, including "The Audacity of Hope" from the US carrying amongst others Alice Walker, author of "The Colour Purple".
86-year-old Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein will also be on either the Canadian or American ship. Hardly "pinkos" lol

Many of these people from around the world have more experience in the "real world that you or I will ever have, more importantly they have a conscience .
Another US citizen going to Gaza is Retired US army Colonel Ann Wright.

"Ann Wright is a US Army/Army Reserves veteran who retired as a Colonel and a former US diplomat who resigned in March, 2003 in opposition to the war on Iraq. She served in Nicaragua, Grenada, Somalia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Sierra Leone, Micronesia and Mongolia. Wright made three trips to Gaza in 2009 and helped organize the Gaza Freedom March that in December, 2009 brought 1350 persons from 44 countries to Cairo, Egypt in an attempt to break the siege of Gaza. She is the co-author of the book "Dissent: Voices of Conscience."

There are also over 50 reporters and photographers including some from CNN, ABC, and European , South American and Asian countries. Some of these will be reporting live from whatever ship they are on.

The organisers have invited Israel to choose any international body it wants to performs checks on the passengers and vessels involved in the flotilla. They have also asked the UN to carry out inspections on all the boats either in port or on the high seas to verify there are no arms shipments on board.

dlofnep

Denerick wrote: »

Not all of course, there are exceptions. I didn't type it for a reaction, I believe it to be true, the fact that there was a reaction seems to support the supposition.

Wait now - Anyone who 'reacts' to an asinine post validates the said post? Does not compute.