Metro North

clusk007

just wondering what happened with this? was watching megacities with Andrew Marr a couple of nights ago and they were showing Shanghai's incredible underground system which is constantly expanding! Dublin is yelling out for one.

did a Google search on the Metro North and cant seem to find much about fine gaels latest policy on it. they seemed to be in favour before the election but what about now with the economy? it has the potential to create a massive amount of jobs initially in the construction phase and many more after. so is this part of the five-point plan???

later12

A decision is due reasonably soon

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/howlin-asks-for-ideas-on-saving-public-money-2802373.html

Mr Howlin had his own money-saving idea yesterday, saying he had asked ministers to come to early decisions on major capital investments, so that money was not wasted planning projects which will not be built.
This may force a conclusion on the controversial Metro North project in Dublin. The Railway Procurement Agency is ready to move to the construction phase of the proposed metro and has been told that a final decision will be made after Mr Howlin's spending review is completed in September.

Dublin is not Shanghai, of course, and I am not sure that the city is, in fact, calling out for a metro system.

mgmt

clusk007 wrote: »

did a Google search on the Metro North and cant seem to find much about fine gaels latest policy on it. they seemed to be in favour before the election but what about now with the economy? it has the potential to create a massive amount of jobs initially in the construction phase and many more after. so is this part of the five-point plan???

It's not going to happen for a long time. The new kid on the block is a spur line from Balgriffen to the airport. Even that is not going to happen.

Pete_Cavan

clusk007 wrote: »

just wondering what happened with this? was watching megacities with Andrew Marr a couple of nights ago and they were showing Shanghai's incredible underground system which is constantly expanding! Dublin is yelling out for one.

did a Google search on the Metro North and cant seem to find much about fine gaels latest policy on it. they seemed to be in favour before the election but what about now with the economy? it has the potential to create a massive amount of jobs initially in the construction phase and many more after. so is this part of the five-point plan???

Appearently the consortia are having problems getting the money for the project (because it is backed by Ireland) but none want to pull out of the tender process because it would mean they forfit any entitlement to compensation from the government for costs incurred during the tender process. AFAIK the consortia are to submit their Best & Final Offers on the project in June or July. We only have the money for one major project and Varadkar says a decision wont be made on which procedes until September. It seems unlikely any PPP (Metro North & Dart Underground) will procede due to problems with the private companies getting a couple of billion for a project backed by a country which borrows €20bn for day to day spending.

later10 wrote: »

Dublin is not Shanghai, of course, and I am not sure that the city is, in fact, calling out for a metro system.

Many cities smaller than Dublin have metros. The problem with Dublin is that low density urban sprawl has made it extremely expensive to provide public transport and many are dependant on the car. The era of cheap private motoring is over, we need to start developing public transport. Dublin needs to become a higher density city based around public transport. Dart Underground is the better project for integrating and making the most of our existing rail infrastructure but Metro North is also a good project.

mgmt wrote: »

It's not going to happen for a long time. The new kid on the block is a spur line from Balgriffen to the airport. Even that is not going to happen.

No. The airport dart spur is not an option. It completely ignores the fact that there is simply no capacity on the northern line for any extra services without quadtracking the line as far as Howth Junction which would also cost a fortune without all the other benefits of Metro North (13 other stops, including our busiest shopping street, hospital, our largest national stadium, interconnects with Irish Rail, a university, a massive park and ride, a town of more then 34,000). Finally it ignores taking a train via such a route would actually take much longer then taking one of the many frequent bus services currently available from the airport. Now lets never speak of this again.

imme

I thought Leo V said a few weeks ago that they'd be in favour if they could afford it. They can't afford, probably never realistically could. Time to move on, do what should have happened 25 years ago, a spur off the DART.

It's only common sense, but then again politicians aren't always known for their common sense.

They could also connect Heuston and Connolly Stations using the Phoenix Park tunnel, while they have the shovels out.:cool:

jd

imme wrote: »

I thought Leo V said a few weeks ago that they'd be in favour if they could afford it. They can't afford, probably never realistically could. Time to move on, do what should have happened 25 years ago, a spur off the DART.

It's only common sense, but then again politicians aren't always known for their common sense.

They could also connect Heuston and Connolly Stations using the Phoenix Park tunnel, while they have the shovels out.:cool:

As been pointed out plenty of times before, the main issue with the airport spur and using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is the capacity of the northern line

dvpower

imme wrote: »

I thought Leo V said a few weeks ago that they'd be in favour if they could afford it. They can't afford, probably never realistically could.

I heard that interview and came away with the clear impression that he was saying there was no way in hell we could afford it.

bk

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Many cities smaller than Dublin have metros. The problem with Dublin is that low density urban sprawl has made it extremely expensive to provide public transport and many are dependant on the car.

Actually that isn't true, Dublin City actually has quiet a high population density. In particular the areas to be served by MN are typically the highest density areas of the city.

Here are some cities that actually have a lower population density then Dublin, note many have highly developed Metro systems:

Rome
Milan
Stockholm
Lisbon
Rotterdam
San Francisco
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Brussels
Helsinki
New York (yes really 2050 versus 2950 people per sq/km in Dublin!!)
Copenhagen

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Metro North is really vital to the continued development of Dublin, followed by Dart Underground. Unfortunately neither are likely to go ahead :mad:

bleg

not a hope in hell.

Drumpot

If it was metro South, it would already of been up and running!

Nijmegen

Drumpot wrote: »

If it was metro South, it would already of been up and running!

We call those the LUAS and the DART.

Drumpot

Nijmegen wrote: »

We call those the LUAS and the DART.

The DART does have to slum it in the Northside though and the Luas has to spend a few minutes from its Connolly starting point!

Although we did get a port tunnel (that wasnt built big enough for all trucks), although they do charge northsiders an arm and a leg to use it at times when they would most want to avail of its convenience!

Pete_Cavan

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true, Dublin City actually has quiet a high population density. In particular the areas to be served by MN are typically the highest density areas of the city.

Here are some cities that actually have a lower population density then Dublin, note many have highly developed Metro systems:

Rome
Milan
Stockholm
Lisbon
Rotterdam
San Francisco
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Brussels
Helsinki
New York (yes really 2050 versus 2950 people per sq/km in Dublin!!)
Copenhagen

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Metro North is really vital to the continued development of Dublin, followed by Dart Underground. Unfortunately neither are likely to go ahead :mad:

Fair enough, but I did not say that Dublin is a low density city, I said "low density urban sprawl has made it extremely expensive to provide public transport". I was referring to the fact that hundreds of thousands of 3/4 bed semi d's were built on the outskirts of the city with no provision for public transport making it extremely difficult to now provide public transport and population densities in these areas are not enough to justify the expense.

Traumadoc

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true, Dublin City actually has quiet a high population density. In particular the areas to be served by MN are typically the highest density areas of the city.

Here are some cities that actually have a lower population density then Dublin, note many have highly developed Metro systems:

Rome
Milan
Stockholm
Lisbon
Rotterdam
San Francisco
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Brussels
Helsinki
New York (yes really 2050 versus 2950 people per sq/km in Dublin!!)
Copenhagen

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Metro North is really vital to the continued development of Dublin, followed by Dart Underground. Unfortunately neither are likely to go ahead :mad:

The metro in Rome is very basic, only 2 lines.

yoshytoshy

I was under the impression that because it is a public/private partnership deal ,the investors in the project would want to see it go ahead.
Therefore it cannot be just scrapped.

imme

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true, Dublin City actually has quiet a high population density. In particular the areas to be served by MN are typically the highest density areas of the city.

Here are some cities that actually have a lower population density then Dublin, note many have highly developed Metro systems:

Rome
...........
Brussels
Helsinki
New York (yes really 2050 versus 2950 people per sq/km in Dublin!!)
Copenhagen

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Metro North is really vital to the continued development of Dublin, followed by Dart Underground. Unfortunately neither are likely to go ahead :mad:

I think we're all talking about different things here, using different stats, maybe stats that don't relate to the question. The thread is about Metro North. Dublin City, does this cover the north county, ie Dublin Airport. Dublin city is actually a small area, population 370,000 for the City Council area.

The 1million population that you quote is from 2007 figures.
This would include the entire from the Wicklow mountains up to Co. Louth.

The same website you refer to quotes New York (city or State) as being home to 17.8 million people. NYC is not home to 18 million people, so it must relate to the state, but the state of NY is much bigger than the size that that website says.

We're talking apples, oranges, kiwi fruit and pears, it seems.

I don't think Dublin will ever see a true underground system, we've ballsed up our planning with higher density areas and estates built too far from the centre with lower density and even almost vacant areas closer to the centre.

imme

jd wrote: »

As been pointed out plenty of times before, the main issue with the airport spur and using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is the capacity of the northern line

how much would an extra couple of tracks cost?

If we were to use Phoenix Park tunnel to connect Connolly and Heuston, does it affect the northern line?

Slideshowbob

What are the few hundred people doing in the RPA offices right now?

I understand they needed alot of engineers when the Luas was being built and design done on Metro North etc

But as these projects are now stalled I'd say there is alot of thumb twiddling going on !?!?

at considerable cost!!

mistermouse

I hope its scrapped, there are far more deserving Road and Rail Projects need starting throughout the country at a fraction of the cost of this political whim

imme

Slideshowbob wrote: »

What are the few hundred people doing in the RPA offices right now?

I understand they needed alot of engineers when the Luas was being built and design done on Metro North etc

But as these projects are now stalled I'd say there is alot of thumb twiddling going on !?!?

at considerable cost!!

I don't believe the RPA has a couple of hundred employees. Besides, there is other work that they're involved with apart from Metro North.

Icepick

Instead of these fictional projects, public bus transport should be revamped.

later12

imme wrote: »

I don't believe the RPA has a couple of hundred employees. Besides, there is other work that they're involved with apart from Metro North.

299 employees were accounted for in its most recent report (2009) which was an increase of 42 employees on the previous year.

The mean wage in the RPA for 2009 was over €61,000, although there is no data for how that distributes.

djpbarry

clusk007 wrote: »

just wondering what happened with this? was watching megacities with Andrew Marr a couple of nights ago and they were showing Shanghai's incredible underground system which is constantly expanding!

Shanghai is a colossal city – comparing it to Dublin in terms of infrastructure requirements is meaningless.

imme wrote: »

It's only common sense, but then again politicians aren't always known for their common sense.

As has been pointed out several times before, the northern line simply does not have the capacity for an airport service. It barely has enough capacity for existing services, hence the proposed underground interconnector from Connolly to Heuston to relieve some of the pressure on the city centre North-South bottleneck.

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true, Dublin City actually has quiet a high population density. In particular the areas to be served by MN are typically the highest density areas of the city.

Here are some cities that actually have a lower population density then Dublin, note many have highly developed Metro systems:

Rome
Milan
Stockholm
Lisbon
Rotterdam
San Francisco
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Brussels
Helsinki
New York (yes really 2050 versus 2950 people per sq/km in Dublin!!)

I find that extremely hard to believe – Manhattan’s population density is approaching 30,000 people per square kilometre. There is absolutely no way Dublin is anywhere near that densely populated.

Icepick wrote: »

Instead of these fictional projects, public bus transport should be revamped.

There’s no reason why both cannot be achieved simultaneously. Besides, the cost involved in upgrading a bus service is minimal relative to building new rail lines. Dublin Bus’ service could be improved dramatically with some very simple, relatively cheap modifications.

bk

mistermouse wrote: »

I hope its scrapped, there are far more deserving Road and Rail Projects need starting throughout the country at a fraction of the cost of this political whim

Really like what, other then Dart Underground there are no other projects that come anywhere close to being as important as Metro North.

Interurban road building is pretty much complete in Ireland, Ireland now has a superb road infrastructure, only a few road projects are left to complete, Newlands Cross, Cork City Northern Ring Road, Cork to Limerick road, but non of these come anywhere close to the importance of MN and DU.

As for rail, well rail is pretty much dead in Ireland other then commuter rail which is what MN and DU are.

You can now get a coach bus Dublin to Galway faster then the train, with onboard toilets and free wifi for a third of the price of the train!!

As new private bus companies are licensed for new direct non stop routes along the new motorways to Cork, Limerick, etc. Intercity rail is going to be absolutely crucified, so little point in investing more money in that.

We really need to focus on public mass transit in our cities now.

jd

imme wrote: »

If we were to use Phoenix Park tunnel to connect Connolly and Heuston, does it affect the northern line?

It would cross the northern line to get to Connolly

hardybuck

Although I'm not from Cork, I did live in the city for a few years, and feel that the public transport situation is not nearly good enough. Obviously there is a bus network, but it has a poor timetable and coverage in my opinion.

Surely a simple Luas style effort going from Oliver Plunkett St, up Washington St, Western Road etc wouldn't cost the world and would be used heavily by commuters?

Appreciate this is on Dublin Metro, but I feel this is an interesting addition.

mgmt

jd wrote: »

It would cross the northern line to get to Connolly

No, it dosn't have to. If IÉ upgraded Glasnevin Junction to allow trains from the Phoenix Park tunnel to cross onto the Docklands line (simple enough as it was once able to do it). Then trains from Hueston could terminate at Platform 7 in Connolly Station with no need to cross onto the Northern Line at all. Of course IÉ don't want to use the PPT as it then take away from their argument for the Dart Interconnector.


You can see the old alignment at Glasnevin Junction here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dublin&hl=en&ll=53.367084,-6.27719&spn=0.001744,0.005284&sll=-89.189705,-175.78125&sspn=0.002646,0.338173&t=h&z=18

The line into Connolly from the Docklands line:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dublin&hl=en&ll=53.355854,-6.243491&spn=0.001745,0.005284&sll=-89.189705,-175.78125&sspn=0.002646,0.338173&t=h&z=18

jd

Platform 7 is already used for services. If the changes you outline were made to Glasnevin junction, would you be able to offer much more than a low frequency shuttle service to Heuston. It wouldn't offer the same increase in network capacity as the interconnector at all.
All rather moot at the moment anyway.

Pete_Cavan

hardybuck wrote: »

Although I'm not from Cork, I did live in the city for a few years, and feel that the public transport situation is not nearly good enough. Obviously there is a bus network, but it has a poor timetable and coverage in my opinion.

Surely a simple Luas style effort going from Oliver Plunkett St, up Washington St, Western Road etc wouldn't cost the world and would be used heavily by commuters?

According to Cork Area Transit System Study the cost of light rail in Cork city would be €1.02billion but a Bus Rapid Transport system along the same route would cost €306million. Here is the Galway Public Transport Feasibility Study if anyone is interested.

I agree with bk, that we should focus investment on communter rail in cities, Dublin first (ie. MN and DU) and then the other cities. We could spend billions upgrading the inter city rail network but what is the point if you cant travel within the city without a car, and even when you have a car, the streets are gridlocked because everyone has to travel by car - never mind the fact that the bus will still be cheaper and faster than the train.

rumour

djpbarry wrote: »

Besides, the cost involved in upgrading a bus service is minimal relative to building new rail lines. Dublin Bus’ service could be improved dramatically with some very simple, relatively cheap modifications.

I think the relatively cheap 'yellow pack version' should be discounted. That is exactly what happened with the M50. A proper motorway was planned then subjected to political engineering resulting in chaos. The metro is required and is required to be built properly or not at all until we can afford it.

As for DART the business case is curious, apparently you have to electrify all the suburban lines and double the amount of passengers coming into Dublin every day, then and only then is a tunnel merited.

So what do Iarnrod Eireann do? Advocate building the tunnel first???

MN business case stands on its own merit and is not reliant on other very expensive works to make it worthwhile.

The minister has said he'll decide in september so be it, I hope he avoids building some half baked idea that will prove a costly waste of time in twenty years.

I have a general question regarding undergrounds and metro's does anyone know one that has been closed down?

bk

hardybuck wrote: »

Although I'm not from Cork, I did live in the city for a few years, and feel that the public transport situation is not nearly good enough. Obviously there is a bus network, but it has a poor timetable and coverage in my opinion.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I agree that Corks public transport infrastructure is insufficient.

However I think LUAS for Cork (or Galway, etc.) is marginal. Typically you only start thinking about building tram lines when the population is over 100,000. Cork city is only slightly over that.

Really in Cork, Galway etc. we should first be looking at improving the bus services at a fraction of the cost of LUAS. This might be shocking to people living in Dublin, but Dublin Bus is far superior to bus services in Cork.

Here is what I would do in Cork:

- Introduce RTPI Real Time Passenger Information signs, like currently being introduced in Dublin.
- Introduce the same integrated Smart Card ticket that is being introduced in Dublin.
BTW this will work even better in Cork as Cork Bus has a single fare so you only need to tag on getting onto the bus. No need to tag off like on DB.
- End the practice of terminating and parking buses in the city center like is currently done. i.e. buses should stop, pick up passengers and immediately leave, not like the current practice of sitting there for 30 minutes, very frustrating for passengers.
- Replace buses with high capacity double deckers where appropriate.
- Introduce far more buses, with higher, more regular frequencies. Ideally max every 10 minutes peak, 15 minutes off peak.

Only once all of this is done, should a Luas be considered for Cork, Galway, etc.

rumour wrote: »

I have a general question regarding undergrounds and metro's does anyone know one that has been closed down?

No city Metro's have ever been shut down.

Some old coal shaft style undergrounds have been shutdown and in some City's like New York and London, some old stations and tunnels end up getting abandoned as new lines are put in place.

That is why Metros are such a great investment, while typically governments pay them off (account for them) over a 30 year period, they tend to end up keep being used and benefiting people for a very long time.

The first underground tunnel was built in London over 150 years ago and is still in use today!!!

Metro North is expected to have a 2:1 return over a 30 year period. That means we will get back €2 for every €1 invested in it over a 30 year period. And of course it will continue to operate and be useful even after then.

So really it is a complete no brainer. Unfortunately at the moment no one will lend us the money to do it. However that doesn't mean we should rush off on other hair brained schemes in the meantime. If we can't do it today, then we should just delay it a couple of years until we can do it.

BTW for anyone interested, this sort of stuff gets discussed in detail over in the Commuter and Transport forum and the Infrastructure forum.

Trebor

I would prefer them to do a proper metro covering the entire city. start with the MN and then keep digging.

aim for the really long term. as the stations are built and brought into operation it will then effect housing and public services around each station as commuters will flock to those areas. the government could have incentives for higher density apartments in those areas. they could look to use existing rail lines as part of the system but the focus should be on building a system to expand dublins capacity not just to service existing population centers. as these locations may not be ideal for a metro system due to high levels of low density housing thus making them inefficient.

this would give dublin councils a clear plan for several decades showing where population is likely to spike so they can then plan infrastructure such as schools and support services.

keep ownership of the system with the government with profits going to fund later stage developments

BluntGuy

bk wrote: »

Here is what I would do in Cork:

- Introduce RTPI Real Time Passenger Information signs, like currently being introduced in Dublin.

This is being done, there are poles up everywhere.

- End the practice of terminating and parking buses in the city center like is currently done. i.e. buses should stop, pick up passengers and immediately leave, not like the current practice of sitting there for 30 minutes, very frustrating for passengers.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

- Replace buses with high capacity double deckers where appropriate.

This is being done.

Only once all of this is done, should a Luas be considered for Cork, Galway, etc.

Very much agreed.

djpbarry

rumour wrote: »

I think the relatively cheap 'yellow pack version' should be discounted. That is exactly what happened with the M50. A proper motorway was planned then subjected to political engineering resulting in chaos. The metro is required and is required to be built properly or not at all until we can afford it.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. It was suggested that the focus should be placed on upgrading Dublin’s bus service. I was merely pointing out that doing so is relatively cheap and easy compared to building underground rail lines. I was not suggesting that one should take precedence over the other.

rumour wrote: »

As for DART the business case is curious, apparently you have to electrify all the suburban lines and double the amount of passengers coming into Dublin every day, then and only then is a tunnel merited.

So what do Iarnrod Eireann do? Advocate building the tunnel first???

I doubt the capacity currently exists to allow for a doubling of rail users, so I’m not entirely sure what you’re arguing?

rumour wrote: »

MN business case stands on its own merit and is not reliant on other very expensive works to make it worthwhile.

Actually, the underground interconnector enhances Metro North as it provides a link at St Stephens Green.

Trebor wrote: »

I would prefer them to do a proper metro covering the entire city.

I’m not really convinced that Dublin needs an extensive underground rail network, but anyway, it’s not the sort of thing that’s going to spring up overnight.

Trebor

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not really convinced that Dublin needs an extensive underground rail network, but anyway, it’s not the sort of thing that’s going to spring up overnight.

That's the idea.. construction should be cheap at the moment as a lot of builders are looking for work. perfect time for the government to get good deals on infrastructure problems. also this would be a multi-decade plan to support dublin for the next 100 years. we are going to need a subway at some point why not start now while it's cheap to build? this type of project is going to take decades to build even assuming it's managed correctly (what's the changes of that in this country?!) but it's more efficient to build for the future than just keep trying to fix the current inefficient systems and focus on roads.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

As new private bus companies are licensed for new direct non stop routes along the new motorways to Cork, Limerick, etc. Intercity rail is going to be absolutely crucified, so little point in investing more money in that.

I think that’s pretty short-sighted – is relying on petroleum-based vehicles (versus electric) for inter-city transport a smart long-term move?

Trebor wrote: »

That's the idea.. construction should be cheap at the moment as a lot of builders are looking for work. perfect time for the government to get good deals on infrastructure problems. also this would be a multi-decade plan to support dublin for the next 100 years. we are going to need a subway at some point why not start now while it's cheap to build?

Well, I don’t think that, relatively speaking, a subway is ever going to be “cheap” to build, but I’m not arguing that Dublin’s infrastructure shouldn’t be upgraded – I think the underground interconnector, in particular, is a great idea. All I’m saying is I don’t really see the need to go planning a vast network of tunnels right now – let’s get the current plans implemented and see where that leaves us.

Trebor

djpbarry wrote: »

All I’m saying is I don’t really see the need to go planning a vast network of tunnels right now – let’s get the current plans implemented and see where that leaves us.

but that's part of the problem.. we are constantly dealing with one issue after another depending on who screams the most. if we had a long term plan that people can see being constantly worked on they can plan around it.

true it will never be something that is cheap but infrastructure (properly planned and assessed) is always a good use of public funds, it will reduce unemployment in the industry with the highest unemployment rate, reduce congestion on the roads and also lots of other benefits that a good transport system brings.

then after all this is built we can then build super fast trains to each major city in ireland and then maybe reduce some of the roads we have in favour of more farm land or other such green things... (can you tell i'm a big fan of cities yet? )

bk

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that’s pretty short-sighted – is relying on petroleum-based vehicles (versus electric) for inter-city transport a smart long-term move?

Only DART's are electric, Intercity and Commuter trains run on diesel.

Trains are only slightly more fuel efficient then bus coaches and arguably less efficient (I won't go into it here, but due to running trains half empty at off-peak times).

Future bus coaches maybe fully electric or use hydrogen, so there isn't much of an environmental argument in favour of intercity rail, not for the short distances of Ireland.

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, I don’t think that, relatively speaking, a subway is ever going to be “cheap” to build, but I’m not arguing that Dublin’s infrastructure shouldn’t be upgraded – I think the underground interconnector, in particular, is a great idea. All I’m saying is I don’t really see the need to go planning a vast network of tunnels right now – let’s get the current plans implemented and see where that leaves us.

We don't really require a massive underground network. Dart Underground and Metro North are actually almost all we need for the next 50 years or so.

DU and MN give you your basic North/South (MN) and East/West (DU) underground network. Other then the core city served by these, we have plenty of existing railway lines to server most locations.

The only additions is to continue MN a little further south to merge with the LUAS green line which would then be converted to Metro level.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

Only DART's are electric, Intercity and Commuter trains run on diesel.

Yeah, I know. But it would seem to make sense to me to at least consider the long-term economic benefit of electrifying the network, rather than simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

bk wrote: »

Future bus coaches maybe fully electric or use hydrogen...

They might be, but electric trains are a proven, tried and trusted technology.

bk

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, I know. But it would seem to make sense to me to at least consider the long-term economic benefit of electrifying the network, rather than simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
They might be, but electric trains are a proven, tried and trusted technology.

No, very unlikely. It would cost billions to do and the trains would still end up slower and 4 times more expensive then the buses.

We have far more important things to be spending billions on if we had it, like MN, DU, fibre to every home in Ireland, etc.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

No, very unlikely. It would cost billions to do and the trains would still end up slower and 4 times more expensive then the buses.

Slower than buses? I don’t think so. Take Dublin-Cork as an example – a bus will do that (non-stop) journey in 2.5 hours, best case scenario. Even allowing for a few stops along the way, a modern train can comfortably beat that time. For example, London-Bristol takes about 1 hour 20 minutes (and that’s not even non-stop). Put the same service on the Dublin-Cork route and you have a journey time of about 1 hour 45 minutes – no bus is going to come close to that.

It’s obviously going to be expensive to upgrade the service, but I’m really not at all convinced that Ireland should leave itself totally reliant on road-based transit outside of towns and cities.

mgmt

djpbarry wrote: »

Slower than buses? I don’t think so. Take Dublin-Cork as an example – a bus will do that (non-stop) journey in 2.5 hours, best case scenario. Even allowing for a few stops along the way, a modern train can comfortably beat that time. For example, London-Bristol takes about 1 hour 20 minutes (and that’s not even non-stop). Put the same service on the Dublin-Cork route and you have a journey time of about 1 hour 45 minutes – no bus is going to come close to that.

It’s obviously going to be expensive to upgrade the service, but I’m really not at all convinced that Ireland should leave itself totally reliant on road-based transit outside of towns and cities.

You can fly Dublin to Cork in 50min atm, without having to ask your fellow taxpayer to subsidise your ticket.

Fattes

How about a BusLane the length of the quays and then from the exit of the Port Tunnell to the airport? Airport to City in 20 Minutes problem solved!!!!!

Then focus on putting proper bus based infastructure in place and sorting Dublin bus out.

Net cost would be about a quarter of the proposed metro and the benifit would be significatnly higher!

People talk about Job Generation from the lines exsistence the Luas has actually taken jobs form Tallaght as most people use it to go into town to shop rather than to Tallaght.

mgmt

Fattes wrote: »

How about a BusLane the length of the quays and then from the exit of the Port Tunnell to the airport? Airport to City in 20 Minutes problem solved!!!!!

Then focus on putting proper bus based infastructure in place and sorting Dublin bus out.

Net cost would be about a quarter of the proposed metro and the benifit would be significatnly higher!

People talk about Job Generation from the lines exsistence the Luas has actually taken jobs form Tallaght as most people use it to go into town to shop rather than to Tallaght.

The bus takes 20min currently to the airport from BusAras, 35min to Swords.

Cool Mo D

mgmt wrote: »

The bus takes 20min currently to the airport from BusAras, 35min to Swords.

It certaintly does not. The 41 takes 35 minutes to the airport, and the 16A 40 minutes from O'Connell street, those times being about 3pm on a weekday. Longer at peak.

mgmt

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It certaintly does not. The 41 takes 35 minutes to the airport, and the 16A 40 minutes from O'Connell street, those times being about 3pm on a weekday. Longer at peak.

Yes it does. They are the local buses to the airport. The 747 bus and the Swords Express use the Port Tunnel.

bk

djpbarry wrote: »

Slower than buses? I don’t think so. Take Dublin-Cork as an example – a bus will do that (non-stop) journey in 2.5 hours, best case scenario. Even allowing for a few stops along the way, a modern train can comfortably beat that time. For example, London-Bristol takes about 1 hour 20 minutes (and that’s not even non-stop). Put the same service on the Dublin-Cork route and you have a journey time of about 1 hour 45 minutes – no bus is going to come close to that.

Here is the reality today:

Dublin to Galway, 2 hours 30 by bus for €20 versus 2 hours 45 minutes via train for €47

Dublin to Cork, average train speed, 2 hours 47 minutes for €74

While no direct bus service to Cork has been licensed yet, it would take about 2 hours 50 minutes and would cost about €25.

London to Bristol is only 100 miles, Dublin to Cork is 158 miles and the route taken by the train is even longer.

Potentially you could get the train down to about 2 hours, but it would cost about 1 billion to upgrade the tracks and remove speed restrictions along the line to achieve that.

Of course in an ideal world we should do that, but we just don't have the money and we need to prioritise.

For those who want to travel Cork to Dublin as quick as possible you have the plane which can do it in 50 minutes, at no cost to the taxpayer.

For those who want a cheaper option, 2 hours 50 minutes by bus for €25 seems perfectly reasonable and again at no cost to the taxpayer.

Investing 1 billion to get the train down to 2 hours, saving just 50 minutes over the bus, at an expensive price of €74 return, seems like madness to me.

We have an fast but expensive option (flying), a slower but cheap option (bus), we really don't need a third option that is expensive, only a little faster and at great expense to the taxpayer.

This is the reality and even everyone at IR knows this.

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s obviously going to be expensive to upgrade the service, but I’m really not at all convinced that Ireland should leave itself totally reliant on road-based transit outside of towns and cities.

I'm not suggesting we close intercity rail today. What I'm suggesting is that we don't spend billions trying to make it faster, for little benefit, that we don't spend more on it other then what is required for safety.

I also suggest that we stop subsidising train passengers, when there are perfectly good, much cheaper alternatives. Let the trains continue to operate, but let people pay the full, unsubsidised price.

Cap the free pass holders at €25 per intercity journey. Therefore free pass holders can decide to take the bus for free or pay the extra for the pleasure of taking the train. It is madness that we are subsidising people to take the train when a much cheaper alternative exists.

If the trains can't continue to compete under these circumstances and have to close, then we should maintain all the rail lines, in case we need to re-open them again in future.

Fattes wrote: »

How about a BusLane the length of the quays and then from the exit of the Port Tunnell to the airport? Airport to City in 20 Minutes problem solved!!!!!

Then focus on putting proper bus based infastructure in place and sorting Dublin bus out.

Net cost would be about a quarter of the proposed metro and the benifit would be significatnly higher!

While a bus lane allow the quays is a very good idea, the Aircoach and 747 can already get to the airport in about 25 minutes. The airport is already well serviced by these services and therefore the crazy idea of a Dart spur is just that, crazy.

However the mistake you are making is thinking that the Metro North is just going to the airport.

Rather it has 14 stops, through some of the most densly populated areas of Dublin, including our two main shopping streets, three hospitals, our largest stadium, a university, a massive park and ride, the airport and several very large urban areas (Swords, Finglas, Ballymun, etc.). It is to be the back bone of public transport in Dublin for the next 50 years.

Of course we should continue to heavily invest in bus. But Dublin is just getting to large and congested to continue this way. Even the most pessimistic projections show Dublins population growing by 11% in the next 20 years. Under these circumstances, Dublin will grind to a halt again if this and DU aren't built.

djpbarry

mgmt wrote: »

You can fly Dublin to Cork in 50min atm...

You might be in the air for 50 minutes, but the total journey time (including waiting) is far longer.

mgmt wrote: »

...without having to ask your fellow taxpayer to subsidise your ticket.

Well, jet fuel is tax-free, so effectively you are being subsidised. Further, certain RyanAir and Aer Arann internal flights are subsidised through the Public Service Obligation.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

London to Bristol is only 100 miles, Dublin to Cork is 158 miles and the route taken by the train is even longer.

I’m quite aware of that. The point I was making is that the London-Bristol train covers this relatively short distance at approximately 140 km/hr – show me a bus that can get even close to that.

bk wrote: »

Investing 1 billion to get the train down to 2 hours, saving just 50 minutes over the bus, at an expensive price of €74 return, seems like madness to me.

Sorry, but it looks like you’re plucking all of this from thin air.

bk wrote: »

We have an fast but expensive option (flying), a slower but cheap option (bus), we really don't need a third option that is expensive, only a little faster and at great expense to the taxpayer.

When you factor in the time it takes to get to/from the airport, coupled with the amount of time spent waiting in airport(s), flying is unlikely to come in at under 3 hours.

bk wrote: »

I also suggest that we stop subsidising train passengers, when there are perfectly good, much cheaper alternatives. Let the trains continue to operate, but let people pay the full, unsubsidised price.

Well let’s get rid of flight subsidies and start taxing jet fuel to really level the playing field. However, I think we should be factoring in the knock-on effect of all the additional road traffic that will result from rail services being scrapped (or at least scaled down).

bk wrote: »

While a bus lane allow the quays is a very good idea, the Aircoach and 747 can already get to the airport in about 25 minutes.

Traffic permitting.

mgmt

djpbarry wrote: »

When you factor in the time it takes to get to/from the airport, coupled with the amount of time spent waiting in airport(s), flying is unlikely to come in at under 3 hours.

Prime Time did an investigation last week . They left at 7.30am from RTE studios and made a 8.40am flight with plenty of time to spare.

So that would make it 2hrs to leave RTE or anywhere else in Dublin really and be be in Cork Airport. Giving ample time to get anywhere in Cork in well under 3hrs.

See here at around 18min
http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2011/0623/primetime.html#

And AFAIK the Dublin to Cork route is not on the PSO.

djpbarry

mgmt wrote: »

Prime Time did an investigation last week . They left at 7.30am from RTE studios and made a 8.40am flight with plenty of time to spare.

Check-in closes about 45 minutes before departure, so that’s nonsense. No sane person is only going to allow themselves 25 minutes to make their flight from South Dublin.

mgmt wrote: »

And AFAIK the Dublin to Cork route is not on the PSO.

No, it isn’t – I wasn’t referring specifically to that route.