Crime & Punishment

beardybrewer

Came home from work yesterday to find our oak kitchen table scratched up. My son is 4.5 and used his metal cutlery to leave nice scratches behind. No malevolence intended and he has been told many many times not to do this. I've practically been hammering this in since birth and was as strict when he used just plastic cutlery.

He was promptly yelled at and sent to bed. This morning one of his favourite toys has been remanded into custody for a week.

So... what "consequence" (I'm not allowed to say punish apparently) would you have dealt out?

sparkling sea

newkie wrote: »

Came home from work yesterday to find our oak kitchen table scratched up. My son is 4.5 and used his metal cutlery to leave nice scratches behind. No malevolence intended and he has been told many many times not to do this. I've practically been hammering this in since birth and was as strict when he used just plastic cutlery.

He was promptly yelled at and sent to bed. This morning one of his favourite toys has been remanded into custody for a week.

So... what "consequence" (I'm not allowed to say punish apparently) would you have dealt out?

Yep the way to go, shout at him and send him to bed. Don't take the time to teach him, in a calm, loving and controlled way - repair the damage to the table, don't send the time on the child.

Anyone can lose their temper with a child and be careless but acting as if the child is the one at fault is just weird in this situation, in my opinion.

He is 4.5, he was sent to his room, fairly drastic to send a 4.5 year old to his room, who was supervising him. By the way why was he left unsupervised with metal cutlery for long enough to damage a table, this is fairly dangerous, he could have had an eye out with a fork or knife.

I am sure you know the rule but culpability should equal punishment - 4.5 minutes on naughty step or what ever seat you use, keep it going until they are sorry, then leave it go - and be a bit more vigilant yourself the next time. Too long a time spin and they no longer realize why they are there. They don't learn anything if you make the punishment to long, they forget the reason and why wouldn't they, its a learning curve and it takes a long time to get it right, a bit like parenting really

Why have you taken his toy for a week - you didn't supervise or step in, in time to stop him scratching your table - you didn't do your job properly so you are punishing him for a week. What punishment have you afforded yourself for your mistake, I bet it wont last a week.

Maybe a table mat or even a table cloth, or old sheet would stop this happening when he is at the table and you can't give him your full attention.
Otherwise don't leave him there because if he acts like a normal 4.5 year old he will be left on his own in a room and punished in some other way for a week. Your reaction to the actions of a child are really over the top - what would you have done if he was ten - I dread to think.:mad:

Fittle

Wow, your comments are way OTT sparklingsea:eek: You've been watching too much Supernanny! I'd have done exactly the same to my 4.5yr old is he'd scratched the table - would that we were all such perfect parents that when these incidents happen, we are immediately inclined 'to teach him, in a calm, loving and controlled way'.....I'm not sure what's so 'fairly drastic' about sending a 4.5yr old to their room either

I think you've done the right thing OP - no point in doing any more. Just be consistent with keeping the favourite toys away for the full week. Don't let this fester and don't keep reminding him of it. It's done, he has been punished and that's it.

silja

Sparkling- he is 4.5 years old and has been told before not to0 do this- not 1.5 and with metal cutlery for the first time! There was no malice in his actions, but he should have known better.

While I agree yelling is not the best way, I think it is totally understandable. I personally do not like sending a child to bed, because I don;t want them to fear/ resent bed, which could lead to difficult bed times. But being sent to his room is totally appropriate considering his age and what he did, as it taking away a toy. Depending on how/ if you intend to repair the table, I might also have him help with that. For example help sand it down, or if you need to have it professionally done and he already gets pocket money, he should contribute in some small way, even if it is only ten cent.

LadyMayBelle

Oot of curiosity, what did the little fella have to say for himself; why he did it, how did he react when he saw you and you sent him to his room?

beardybrewer

Err, just to keep this thread on track let's ignore the troll. No need to defend ourselves. We don't send our kids to bed crying.. they get hugs and know they are loved even when they are in trouble. The scratches happened as in seconds as if he was scribbling on paper with a SPOON. My wife was probably doing the dishes when it happened.

So again, let's ignore the over the top reaction there and let's just hear what you would have done. Pushing his sister is a 4 minute timeout. Playing around and spilling milk is cleaning duty for a few mins. But writing on the wall or ruining furniture? Well that's the question! I shouldn't have even mentioned what we did as that was just inviting comment... the qestion is what would you do?

And yeah, agree you deal out the punishment and then move on.

LadyMayBelle

Eh sorry I'm not a troll!
I was only wondering what he said/ how he reacted because I'd base what I'd do on that..

beardybrewer

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

Eh sorry I'm not a troll!

Didn't mean you! Oy, this thread is doomed.

And to answer your question he probably said "I don't know" and looked sheepish. That is their standard.

LadyMayBelle

Personally, my textbook parenting would be out the window because I'd more than likely and very honestly be really peed off, and would probably shout and react similarly by asking the child to leave. I would like to say I would take a few deep breaths and then calmly ask the child to leave, but we are not perfect 24.7 are we!

Once I contained myself and calmed I'd speak to the little chap and tell me how upset it made me, and explain why I reacted the way I did. That's the repair bit of parenting..not to leave the child in fear, but rather showing them that you get angry, and it is okay to, but it's important that you contain it and explain.

I'd prob give him a little job too like the other poster suggested, show him how much it meant to you and that we have nice things we need to take car of, rather than 'retaliating'.

My tuppence worth..

EDIT @sparkling sea..AFAIK the question was not about judging parenting per se; here; try this for one minute, imagine you have walked into a room where your child has broken or damaged something really, really valuable to you..imagine your first reaction; this isn't about right or wrong, but what would you do in that instance... that's what this thread is about...*i think!*

sparkling sea

My children are way past the Super Nanny age and I can assure they would never have been sent to their room at 4.5 unless it was bed time and they were ready for sleep.

Metal cutlery is not something a 4.5 year should be left with to scratch a table, its to dangerous and can cause damage to more then just a table.

A week long punishment is not a punishment a 4.5 year old can comprehend.

Passing total responsibility on to a very young child is lazy parenting and lazy parenting leads to a whole heap of trouble in late life.

If you are going to have a child, realize how lucky you are and treat them with care and compassion - the same compassion most posters hear seem only to willing to extend to adult parents for the mistakes they make, even though said parents have alot more life experience then a little child.

And writing on a wall is worse then pushing his sister ?

Cottontail

silja wrote: »

Sparkling- he is 4.5 years old and has been told before not to0 do this- not 1.5 and with metal cutlery for the first time! There was no malice in his actions, but he should have known better.

While I agree yelling is not the best way, I think it is totally understandable. I personally do not like sending a child to bed, because I don;t want them to fear/ resent bed, which could lead to difficult bed times. But being sent to his room is totally appropriate considering his age and what he did, as it taking away a toy. Depending on how/ if you intend to repair the table, I might also have him help with that. For example help sand it down, or if you need to have it professionally done and he already gets pocket money, he should contribute in some small way, even if it is only ten cent.

I'd agree with the bedtime association mentioned above, you don't want your child to think that bedtime is a punishment.
Thankfully my little man is not at this age yet, don't know how i'll deal with it when he is!!! :eek:

octo

I think you're nuts leaving an expensive oak table bare to begin with. Cover it up. That's what we do. Its unrealistic to expect a 4 year-old not to scribble on it - they just don't have the self-control.

sparkling sea

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

EDIT @sparkling sea..AFAIK the question was not about judging parenting per se; here; try this for one minute, imagine you have walked into a room where your child has broken or damaged something really, really valuable to you..imagine your first reaction; this isn't about right or wrong, but what would you do in that instance... that's what this thread is about...*i think!*

OK child and mother were both in the wrong - in an instant you can lose your temper but it takes more than an instant to bring a 4.5 to his room and within no time you should have cooled down - so it shouldn't get that out of control with a small child in the first place. Taking a toy for a week is not losing your temper its being vindictive to a 4.5 year old

I never had anything that valuable when my children were young but anything I did have I minded and I would never have left them at it so they could damage it.If they had ruined something I would have lost my temper, yes but I would have calmed myself fairly quickly, I am sure my husband would have asked had I lost my mind if I sent them to bed and took their toys when they were 4 and he would have been right in my opinion.

The child was sitting up at the table with metal cutlery - I would be more tormented with myself and that would be my first reaction.

The "consequences" I would have doled out, would be to give myself a good kick up the arse for leaving the child with metal cutlery at a wooden table that I knew he was inclined to want to scratch and I knew I really didn't want scratched- I would stick a sheet on it when I left them sit at it or I wouldn't let them sit at it. Its a table.

Justask

newkie wrote: »

Came home from work yesterday to find our oak kitchen table scratched up. My son is 4.5 and used his metal cutlery to leave nice scratches behind. No malevolence intended and he has been told many many times not to do this. I've practically been hammering this in since birth and was as strict when he used just plastic cutlery.

He was promptly yelled at and sent to bed. This morning one of his favourite toys has been remanded into custody for a week.

So... what "consequence" (I'm not allowed to say punish apparently) would you have dealt out?

If your little boy put marks on your table at 4 an a half and hasnt done it before now I think your very lucky

All parents deal with punishment in a different way....Sending him to bed after to be yelled at IMO is a little harsh.

But thats just my opinion

Orion

newkie wrote: »

Err, just to keep this thread on track let's ignore the troll.

The mods will decide when someone is trolling. No more comments like that please.

Ayla

I think the main point that sticks out to me in the OP was that the child had been repeatedly told not to do exactly what he wound up doing. That is the most crucial issue at hand here.

Clearly the child is having a hard time listening/understanding/remembering the warnings, so I would agree that some form of punishment is in order. What would I have done? Probably lose the plot altogether, honestly.

A time out alone in the room would be in the plan (my 4.5 yr old has had about 3-4 timeouts in her life, and our rule for them is she sits on her bed, and after she's quiet the clock starts. 2 mins, then she's done. if she screams/cries or throws another kiniption then the 2 mins starts again. Didn't take her long to realize the "torture" is over much faster if she cooperates.

But after the dust settles, though, I make a very distinct effort to sit down and calmly explain the entire situation & why I was upset. Fortunately our 4.5 yr old is incredibly intuitive and compassionate, so she really "gets" these conversations. We've never needed any further punishment. Our younger daughter, though, is a ball of fire, so who knows what tricks might have to come out of the bag for her

OP, I think the idea of taking the toy away for a week has some merits...it shows the child that we have to appreciate what we have, and how we become sad when it's no longer around (or, in your case, when it's been damaged). IMO, though, a week is almost too long - a child quickly loses interest and so may actually forget about the toy, thus negating the lesson you're trying to teach.

Last point - sparking sea, really??? My 4.5 yr old has been sitting at our table using metal spoons & forks for 3 years. She is totally and competely capable of doing so, and I do not think they need be a safety concern. My 21-month old also uses metal spoons & forks and understands the rights & wrongs of what to do with them. As for being sent to their room, like I said, we've done this a few times with each of our children, I don't think the OP was out of order.

sparkling sea

Ayla wrote: »

Last point - sparking sea, really??? My 4.5 yr old has been sitting at our table using metal spoons & forks for 3 years. She is totally and competely capable of doing so, and I do not think they need be a safety concern. My 21-month old also uses metal spoons & forks and understands the rights & wrongs of what to do with them. As for being sent to their room, like I said, we've done this a few times with each of our children, I don't think the OP was out of order.

Really - I have no problem if the child is being supervised and using metal cutlery (although not to play with unless its a spoon - but nothing sharp, I really really think its dangerous and quite frankly very stupid to leave children with knifes and forks) but we'll have to agree to differ as an fork in the eye area is a common injury that children present with in A and E's. A friend of mine is a nurse and that and children sticking things up their nose seem to make up a good part of her daily routine.
She has moaned to me on numerous occassions about children banging their forks up and down at the table and accidently sticking them in in their own or other childrens eyes.

Wouldn't ever want to send a young child to a room on their own as a punishment - I think its counterproductive and not the best idea. I would save it until they are older and they mean to cause annoyance with their actions.

People can punsih a young child if they wish too but helping them to learn to understand why what they are doing is a problem is always the better option - I know it worked for me, although it is much more work then punishing them. Enough said

Ayla

sparkling sea wrote: »

Wouldn't ever want to send a young child to a room on their own as a punishment - I think its counterproductive and not the best idea. I would save it until they are older and they mean to cause annoyance with their actions.

People can punsih a young child if they wish too but helping them to learn to understand why what they are doing is a problem is always the better option - I know it worked for me, although it is much more work then punishing them. Enough said

Great, all you've done is berate the rest of us for our poor parenting techniques. Could you please enlighten us on what you'd do when you've asked & explained something to your 4.5 yr old child a dozen times and then when you're in the loo they do it anyway? How, exactly, do you handle that in a "calm, controlled and loving way?"

Crea

It was an accident on the childs behalf - they were "colouring" with a spoon and scratched the table - therefore I think the parents reaction was way over the top. the child obviously had no comprehension that this activity could have resulted in the table being scratched. TBH I prob just would have given them a good talking to. By tomorrow they'll have forgotten why the toy was taken off them and have to listen to mammy and daddy beating on about the precious table for the rest of the week everytime the child mentions the toy. If its that bloody important that it stays pristine with a small child in the house then get a bloody glass cover or put a table cloth on it.

Orion

sparkling sea: While I actually agree with some of what you're saying you are coming across as a bit smug and judgemental. Please tone it down a bit.
Crea: There no need for the sarcasm in your last two sentences. You could make your point in a more pleasant way.

happydayz8

I completly understand where you are coming from and why you reacted in the way you did. My child is exactly the same age and of course he eats with metal cutlery too and can well handle it. I also think one should not remove items in order for the child to learn how to treat them. I never removed things unless they where a danger. Yes, I would have yelled at him and sent him to his room (and take 5 minutes of breathing time), but I would not have sent him to bed. I would have said it's ok for now, we'll talk about it tomorrow and gone through the usual bed time routine. I think the removing of the toy is a great idea. Now I would not keep dwelling on it though. Maybe ask for ideas how we can fix the table. I know you won't get the right answer but you may just get him to think that there is more involved here after scratching it. I think a lot of people underestimate what a child is capable of and he is well capable of comprehending the consequence of the removed toy. Is there any evidence supporting that this is not the case?

sparkling sea

Ayla wrote: »

Great, all you've done is berate the rest of us for our poor parenting techniques. Could you please enlighten us on what you'd do when you've asked & explained something to your 4.5 yr old child a dozen times and then when you're in the loo they do it anyway? How, exactly, do you handle that in a "calm, controlled and loving way?"

Dont you mean the rest of you who dont agree that the actions are over the top?

I dont know anything about the parenting skills of anyone on this site - I just feel very sorry for a 4.5 year old little boy who probably dont have any real understanding of why he had caused so much trouble.

I dont like people shouting at me, I dont like people shouting at children and I strongly dislike people bullying young children when what they really need to do is learn to control their own temper.

I am not berating, I just don't agree with the approach taken and I dont want to upset anyone but you can tell a child a thing a million times and they still may not fully understand what you mean, especially when they are 4.5 - their only starting to learn, expect to give them thousands of chances, its not the end of the world if they make a mistake.

Any one in an adult relationship will know that there are things their partner does over and over again that is completely out of order and wrong and these people are adult - yet people can be alot harder on a small child then they would ever be on an adult - I just dont get it, I really don't understand the need to be so hard or get so upset with young children, thats my only point. The only reason I am making this point is because in my opinion it doesn't do any good.

sparkling sea

Orion wrote: »

sparkling sea: While I actually agree with some of what you're saying you are coming across as a bit smug and judgemental. Please tone it down a bit.
Crea: There no need for the sarcasm in your last two sentences. You could make your point in a more pleasant way.

Pot, kettle black spring to mind here

bertsmom

I know this sounds like a flippant comment and I really dont mean it to but the little one in queation is only 4 and a half and its only a table surely grown ups never mind children will mark the table over time with cutlery, spills and just general wear and tear, If your table is that important to you why not cover it with a cloth while the kids eating.
Again to the OP I dont meant to sound mean to you but wont your whole house get a bit of wear and tear with kids in the coming years?

sparkling sea

happydayz8 wrote: »

I completly understand where you are coming from and why you reacted in the way you did. My child is exactly the same age and of course he eats with metal cutlery too and can well handle it. I also think one should not remove items in order for the child to learn how to treat them. I never removed things unless they where a danger. Yes, I would have yelled at him and sent him to his room (and take 5 minutes of breathing time), but I would not have sent him to bed. I would have said it's ok for now, we'll talk about it tomorrow and gone through the usual bed time routine. I think the removing of the toy is a great idea. Now I would not keep dwelling on it though. Maybe ask for ideas how we can fix the table. I know you won't get the right answer but you may just get him to think that there is more involved here after scratching it. I think a lot of people underestimate what a child is capable of and he is well capable of comprehending the consequence of the removed toy. Is there any evidence supporting that this is not the case?

Yep there is a wealth of evidence to support the premise that young children do not understand the idea behind long term punishment - any development stages theories ( Erickson, Freud, etc) that are peer reviewed and have longitudal studies to support them show that young children only relate immediate consequences to their actions.
Fear and not understanding is the motivation behind punishment - they know they are being punished but the punishment is not correlated to the original action - its fear not understanding.

Orion

sparkling sea wrote: »

Pot, kettle black spring to mind here

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. And then this. Do not question a mod warning on thread.

sparkling sea

Orion wrote: »

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. And then this. Do not question a mod warning on thread.

Dont realize it was a mod warning, I thought you had just written your comment in bold - I stand corrected and will bow out of this moderated discussion.

metrovelvet

I know with destoyed property its very easy to lose it. I went into a hump for a week after handing over E200 I dont have to a plumber for a plastic bag flushed down the toilet to be retrieved, and another hump after hand sanitiser was poured down my digital camera. You can imagine what I felt like when I was asked it it was ok to pout smoothie into the iron. And you spend so much time with the repetition especially about things that could hurt them, like the stove or the fireplace etc, but they have short memories and get seduced by things easily.

There are greater losses to get very upset about. If you lost your son, you'd be very happy about those scratch marks on the table.

When I go into my humps I try to draw myself out of it with a little perspective.

LadyMayBelle

Am I the only one to realise that this thread has clearly derailed from what the OP wanted, even after they stated so??

January

Mod Note:

Then maybe let's try to keep it on track rather than pointing that out?

Victor Meldrew

It is really hard to have nice stuff when you have kids.

My 4.5 yo does not listen and has started being a bit cheeky when we try to explain stuff. He knows that waterworks are a good way of getting his way and avoiding a "teachable moment".

So we have the odd stand-off, and it is hard when you are saying "No" all the time

He also want's to be spontaneous and explore/climb. All of which his 22 mo. brother watches and tries to copy.

Our Time out process is that he sits on the stairs till he is ready to say sorry. I now ask him what he is sorry about, so he knows WHY he was punished. The 22 mo. we just make say sorry, but the Naughty Step will be entering his world soon.

On a lighter note, when Boy#1 was 18mo., we were doing gardening and my wife gave him a trowel to play with because he shouted till he got it.. I said he'll go for the car with that. She said, no, he'll be fine, I was right and the car came within an inch of a go faster stripe....

At 4.5 years, I now just about trust him to clean the wheels of the car with me standing over him....

ash23

Its so frustrating when you tell them over and over and over and over again to do something or not do something and they do it anyway.

When my daughter was about 4 she drew on her sofa(despite being warned not to colour anywhere but the table/floor) I took her markers off her and she had to ask when she wanted to colour and had to be set up at the kitchen table in order to colour. . In time she got them back and was able to colour at will again.

At the moment it's the lunchbox. She's 8 and one of her chores is to empty her lunch. I don't go near her bag anymore as she gets annoyed when I find notes her and her friends have been writing (innocent stuff about nothing really) so I told her that her room and her bag are now her responsibility.
For a few months there, every other week I'd get a whiff from the bag, have to go into it and would find a half eaten mouldy sandwich or a mushed up banana. I started with warning her and then grounding her.

OP, we're all human and on occasion we lose the plot. I have lost it with my daughter and shouted at her. However, once I calm down I usually go to her and apologise for shouting. I will say "It was wrong of you to leave your lunch in your bag for 2 weeks and you know that I've warned you loads of times about it so you are still grounded, but I shouldn't have lost my temper and shouted at you and for that I am sorry".

The punishment still stands but personally, I don't want her thinking it's ok to go around screaming at people who annoy her. But at the same time, sometimes she frustrates me so much it's all I can do to hold back from really letting rip.
Also I think it's really important to trust them to do things. We can't stand over them all the time watching every move/ At some point you have to let them do things, access things or go places without hovering over them and you have to trust them to do what they should. And if they don't and you KNOW they can, then they have to be punished/reprimanded for that.

bigneacy

sparkling sea wrote: »

newkie wrote: »

Came home from work yesterday to find our oak kitchen table scratched up. My son is 4.5 and used his metal cutlery to leave nice scratches behind. No malevolence intended and he has been told many many times not to do this. I've practically been hammering this in since birth and was as strict when he used just plastic cutlery.

He was promptly yelled at and sent to bed. This morning one of his favourite toys has been remanded into custody for a week.

So... what "consequence" (I'm not allowed to say punish apparently) would you have dealt out?

Yep the way to go, shout at him and send him to bed. Don't take the time to teach him, in a calm, loving and controlled way - repair the damage to the table, don't send the time on the child.

Anyone can lose their temper with a child and be careless but acting as if the child is the one at fault is just weird in this situation, in my opinion.

He is 4.5, he was sent to his room, fairly drastic to send a 4.5 year old to his room, who was supervising him. By the way why was he left unsupervised with metal cutlery for long enough to damage a table, this is fairly dangerous, he could have had an eye out with a fork or knife.

I am sure you know the rule but culpability should equal punishment - 4.5 minutes on naughty step or what ever seat you use, keep it going until they are sorry, then leave it go - and be a bit more vigilant yourself the next time. Too long a time spin and they no longer realize why they are there. They don't learn anything if you make the punishment to long, they forget the reason and why wouldn't they, its a learning curve and it takes a long time to get it right, a bit like parenting really

Why have you taken his toy for a week - you didn't supervise or step in, in time to stop him scratching your table - you didn't do your job properly so you are punishing him for a week. What punishment have you afforded yourself for your mistake, I bet it wont last a week.

Maybe a table mat or even a table cloth, or old sheet would stop this happening when he is at the table and you can't give him your full attention.
Otherwise don't leave him there because if he acts like a normal 4.5 year old he will be left on his own in a room and punished in some other way for a week. Your reaction to the actions of a child are really over the top - what would you have done if he was ten - I dread to think.:mad:

I had to log in to express my shock at your over the top comment.

Get Down off your high horse.

OP, I think most of us (in the real world) would have reacted the same way. And 4.5 isn't too young to use cutlery and be left unsupervised with.

Children need a little indepence.

cynder

My guys been there and done that only he hasn't only scratched the table he has taken the knife and scratched the new 48 inch tv as his comprehension was really poor at the time we could only say no and take the object off him (he has used a knife/ screwdriver and alum keys) and put them out of his reach now 2 years later aged 4 and a half he no longer attacks the tv, he may over use a pen on the table, but hay its only a table cant keep things in tip top condition with kids around, will have to wait another few years before we replace anything.


painted the house a few times as it was covered in the kids drawings, but now the drawings have stopped a few hand prints here and there, but im quite chilled out about it, nothing stays new forever. It is disheartening when they ruin something new but that's kids for you, a firm NO dont do it again, (even though the chances are that they will do it again) but there will come a time when they realise that they are not supposed to do it and they will stop. Ive had not drawings on my walls for the last 8 months and my lads are 4 and 5 (almost 6). so it does work. If their favorite toy has gone to prison for a week, and that works great.

Glinda

Seeing as he's done this before, I'd have taken the metal cutlery, told him that he couldn't have it any more until he could be good and use it properly, issued him with his old plastic cutlery and refused to give the metal stuff back until he said sorry and promised to be a big boy and not to scratch the table if I gave it back (of course if he doesn't care, so much the better, let him use the plastic for another while - less capacity for damage).

Meanwhile I'd probably be having a long think about having 'good' furniture and whether it's worth it when kids are small

sparkling sea

bigneacy wrote: »

I had to log in to express my shock at your over the top comment.

Get Down off your high horse.

OP, I think most of us (in the real world) would have reacted the same way. And 4.5 isn't too young to use cutlery and be left unsupervised with.

Children need a little indepence.

Not on a high horse, just giving my opinion

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion - I don't agree with yours - (in the real world) would be distressed by the actions of these parents.
Not spur of the moment but a continuing loss of control resulting in the type of ongoing punishment that a child of 4.5 is not capable of understanding - but hey as I said, we are all different

Children need lots of things - positivity being a priority - again in my opinion.