Dept of Finance may print and sell "Ireland is not Greece/Protugal" tshirts

darkman2

You Have Just Entered The Onion Zone: Irish Finance Ministry To Sell "Ireland Is Not Greece" T-Shirts


Just when you thought you had seen it all...

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/you-have-just-entered-onion-zone-ireland-sell-ireland-not-greece-t-shirts

later12

I can understand his frustration. In terms of the Irish response to the adjustment that is required, Ireland is certainly not in the same league as Greece or Portugal. It doesn't mean we are doing terrifically, but it might mean that we're pretty sick of being lumped in with them.

Would anybody here prefer to be living in the Greek or Portuguese economy right now?

Sand

Itd be sunnier at least.

Im really bemused by the " We are not <insertcountryhere>" speaking point. It presumes investors are complete idiots, to be talked down to like children by the brain trust at the DoF. It makes us look like fools by extension. Investors know exactly who we are and what progress we are making. Thats why they arent lending to us.

Why arent the DoF telling us we arent Iceland anymore? Iceland seems to have been dropped from their presentation points mysteriously.

later12

It is well established that when capital markets are spooked from a sovereign, they tend to identify clusters of countries from which they will shy away instead of just one sovereign, and may start to regard them as one entity.

I think it is understandable - if not entirely influential - for the Irish Finance minister to try and distance himself from the cluster which has formed.

Sand

So, these investors put hundreds of millions, or billions of their money at risk without actually having carried out any analysis more detailed than "Ireland? Thats in Europe is'nt it?" or reading the front page of the Sun?

Maybe thats how investment decisions are made in Irish banks, but then Irish banks are a complete mess.

later12

Risk teams don't make the mistake that all actors in an economy are rational, objective and fully informed. It may be irrational to say ''if Portugal falls, Spain is just a matter of time" as many have, but it is entirely rational to factor in the possibility that non rational actors are thinking exactly that.

This makes self fulfilling prophecies a real problem. Investment banks know what the specific fear is, and fear seeps into stochastic risk models, and fear becomes reality because the asset or the stock or the bond becomes risky, like a negative feedback loop, and becomes more and more undesirable, and more and more risky.

So yes, I understand what Minister Noonan meant by the tee shirts comment. I'm sure he only meant it in a tongue and cheek fashion, but it underlines a rather valid exasperation with the cluster effect, and how that perception in the market can stump our growth.

hinault

later10 wrote: »

Risk teams don't make the mistake that all actors in an economy are rational, objective and fully informed. It may be irrational to say ''if Portugal falls, Spain is just a matter of time" as many have, but it is entirely rational to factor in the possibility that non rational actors are thinking exactly that.

This makes self fulfilling prophecies a real problem. Investment banks know what the specific fear is, and fear seeps into stochastic risk models, and fear becomes reality because the asset or the stock or the bond becomes risky, like a negative feedback loop, and becomes more and more undesirable, and more and more risky.

Priceless stuff.

hinault

Sand wrote: »

So, these investors put hundreds of millions, or billions of their money at risk without actually having carried out any analysis more detailed than "Ireland? Thats in Europe is'nt it?" or reading the front page of the Sun?

Maybe thats how investment decisions are made in Irish banks, but then Irish banks are a complete mess.

Not to mention the investors who insisted on shovelling their deposits in to the Irish banking system from 2003-2007, so the Irish bankers could loan out all that dosh to Irish joe public.

deanh

Sand wrote: »

So, these investors put hundreds of millions, or billions of their money at risk without actually having carried out any analysis more detailed than "Ireland? Thats in Europe is'nt it?" or reading the front page of the Sun?

Maybe thats how investment decisions are made in Irish banks, but then Irish banks are a complete mess.

Well, These investors continued to lend to Irish banks, despite being over exposed to the sector and in the middle of a property bubble! So we know how much analysis they do. SFA.

ragg

I think it's a great point by Noonan. The recent growth in the economy is something to celebrate and I can see why Noonan is frustrated.
We (the Irish) are working hard to pay "our" debts, minimal public out cry just a nose to the grindstone mentality and our economy is showing encouraging signs and is, in fact, growing..

The Greeks, the portugese are kicking up a major fuss and thier economies are completely dead for the forseeable future. Yet it's the Irish who are being bullied by a french man who is in a strop.

Once again, it shows us who our true firends in europe are. It's not the French and its not the Germans.

Boulevardier

I think that such a T-shirt would show a disgusting lack of solidarity with the Greek people, who, unlike us, have shown some backbone.

Liam Byrne

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that such a T-shirt would show a disgusting lack of solidarity with the Greek people, who, unlike us, have shown some backbone.

Exactly!

If anything those t-shirts could be viewed with more than a hint of irony, translating to "we're happy taking the crap and getting ridden".

Bottle_of_Smoke

If I'm getting this right its an outrageous thing to say.

Noonan should take note that Greece did what Europe said and took a bailout...now they need a second one.

hotmail.com

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Chucky the tree

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If I'm getting this right its an outrageous thing to say.

Noonan should take note that Greece did what Europe said and took a bailout...now they need a second one.

Hopefully he will take note and realise if we don't sort out our public sector pay bill then we will need second one. Greece is a prime example of complete incompetency from top to bottom.

BlaasForRafa

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that such a T-shirt would show a disgusting lack of solidarity with the Greek people, who, unlike us, have shown some backbone.

Have you any idea of just how corrupt Greece is? Many of the protestors are state workers who are scared that they will actually have to work for a living and they might not get as many bribes in the future.

The greek public service is so corrupt and inefficient that it makes the irish civil service look brilliant in comparison. There is no way that we should show solidarity with them.

later12

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that such a T-shirt would show a disgusting lack of solidarity with the Greek people, who, unlike us, have shown some backbone.

Lack of solidarity? Lack of soladity with which... lying about the health of their public finances? low tax compliance? Lack of solidarity with a stubbornly bloated public sector? Lack of solidarity with the country that recently scored second-to-last on the index of economic freedom? With the government that has failed to show a serious or sustained commitment to imposing the necessary fiscal and competitiveness corrections?

The question in Ireland used to be between loyalty to Boston or to Berlin. It appears some people wish the loyalty to be to the famous European socialist Bakunin, who spoke longingly of the passion for destruction and who travelled around Europe advancing that message, truly the father of the fight the powah! school of economic thought.

Boulevardier

The Greek people, unlike their craven government, are fighting for their own interests and against brutal austerity and mass privatisation. I am with them. I am certainly not with Noonan, who feels that the need to reassure "the markets" justifies kicking the Greeks when they are down.

Later10 and Blaasforrafa, you clearly want to wear T-shirts to show the EU that you, and the gutless Irish people as a whole, are loyal to them to the bitter end, and to show the Greeks that you don't care how much they have to suffer. Enjoy your new garments.

later12

Boulevardier wrote: »

The Greek people, unlike their craven government, are fighting for their own interests and against brutal austerity and mass privatisation. I am with them.

Greek privatisation potential = EUR 300 billion
Greek public debt = EUR 300 billion, trading at an average of 60% to par.

Simple, no?

Boulevardier

No. The Greeks are being asked to sell off their own property to pay off the bankers and the EU.

Privatisation is a disastrous policy at the best of times, and forced privatisation to pay off speculators is doubly so.

Chucky the tree

Boulevardier wrote: »

The Greek people, unlike their craven government, are fighting for their own interests and against brutal austerity and mass privatisation. I am with them. I am certainly not with Noonan, who feels that the need to reassure "the markets" justifies kicking the Greeks when they are down.

Later10 and Blaasforrafa, you clearly want to wear T-shirts to show the EU that you, and the gutless Irish people as a whole, are loyal to them to the bitter end, and to show the Greeks that you don't care how much they have to suffer. Enjoy your new garments.

Oh those poor public sector workers, how will they ever survive on less then €65k a year?:rolleyes:

The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year.

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

later12

Boulevardier wrote: »

No. The Greeks are being asked to sell off their own property to pay off the bankers and the EU.

Who borrowed the Greek debt? Do you find it so incredible that a debt must be repaid?

oscarBravo

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that such a T-shirt would show a disgusting lack of solidarity with the Greek people, who, unlike us, have shown some backbone.

It distresses me that this attitude is so widespread as to be practically accepted wisdom. It's the belief that if enough people shout loudly enough about something, they can change the fabric of reality; the belief that if only we took to the streets, we'd suddenly be able to afford to run the country at a staggering deficit.

Tell you what: let's see how that works out for Greece. Let's take the pragmatic approach, and let another country have a stab at running a multi-billion euro deficit. If, against all logic, it turns out that you actually can pay for public services without taking in enough tax to cover their cost just by taking to the streets, I'll be all for it.

"Backbone" is all very well. I've known some very brave people; some of them were also some of the stupidest people I've ever encountered. When something constructive can be achieved by demonstrating against the idea of being able to pay for what you get, let me know.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Peanut

I think both sides of this argument have valid points.

I get the sense that the Greek protesters are looking for accountability from their elected and un-elected officials, and more to the point, the power brokers in society, as much as they are railing against their bailout terms.

Can we really blame them for this?


When a society becomes intrinsically corrupt, there's always a large portion of the population that won't reap the ill-gotten gains. While the booty may be spread more widely this time, I don't doubt that many Greeks hadn't seen the financial benefits that their less honest, or more well connected brethren have.

Now some people might say that the public only have themselves to blame for this, in much the same way as few people were complaining here during the boom.

However, the general public can't realistically be expected to predict the negative consequences of often opaque state policy. The mandate an elected government has is one of trust - I have elected you, now don't go screwing things up on us.

In this respect, popular Greek anger is entirely understandable, and even though the party in power at the time is gone, the Greeks probably correctly suspect that the rot is still there.

oscarBravo

Peanut wrote: »

Can we really blame them for this?

If they had taken to the streets to protest against corruption and lack of accountability while the good times were rolling, they might have been a lot more deserving of applause.

Peanut

oscarBravo wrote: »

If they had taken to the streets to protest against corruption and lack of accountability while the good times were rolling, they might have been a lot more deserving of applause.

This is complicated by the fact that being lied to is a fellow traveller of corruption and lack of accountability. There are unfortunate Greeks that have been put over a barrel through no significant fault of their own, just as there are Irish.

Inverse to the power of one!

oscarBravo wrote: »

If they had taken to the streets to protest against corruption and lack of accountability while the good times were rolling, they might have been a lot more deserving of applause.

Now! That's a teeshirt I'd like to see printed in Ireland!

Peanut

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Now! That's a teeshirt I'd like to see printed in Ireland!

I can imagine the reaction in Greece when they hear about this great piece of hindsight from the Irish,

":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:"

oscarBravo

Peanut wrote: »

This is complicated by the fact that being lied to is a fellow traveller of corruption and lack of accountability. There are unfortunate Greeks that have been put over a barrel through no significant fault of their own, just as there are Irish.

Great. And taking to the streets is going to improve their situation... how, exactly?

later12

oscarBravo wrote: »

Great. And taking to the streets is going to improve their situation... how, exactly?

In the Greeks' defence, I don't think the protests are very unified.

Obviously public service employees and other interest groups are looking to preserve their positions, but the protesters seem to be a very heterogenous lot. Many seem to be protesting because they want to leave the European Union or for other political reasons - e.g. ejecting the present administration. And both of these objectives have their merits. I think there is something to be said for the political protests particularly. The right to protest, or the political benefits that may arise due to such protesting, are not something that I think I would take issue with myself.

oscarBravo

later10 wrote: »

Many seem to be protesting because they want to leave the European Union or for other political reasons - e.g. ejecting the present administration. And both of these objectives have their merits. I think there is something to be said for the political protests particularly. The right to protest, or the political benefits that may arise due to such protesting, are not something that I think I would take issue with myself.

I don't have an issue with protesting per se, but I have an issue with the oft-expressed sentiment that taking to the streets will achieve anything other than catharsis.

If the Greek people want the current government out, fine - but why? From what I can see, mostly because the current government is trying to impose austerity, and the people don't want austerity. Similarly, those who want out of the EU seem to believe that to leave would help avoid those same austerity measures.

There's a widespread collective delusion that it's somehow possible to avoid paying the price for building up a public service that you can't afford to pay for. That price is either to reduce the cost of the public service, or raise taxes to pay for it. No amount of public anger is going to change that simple fact - but still, we keep hearing that we should be taking to the streets, as if that would actually achieve anything.

GSF

There is a very good article here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/8597409/A-Greek-tragedy-long-in-the-making.html
on what life is like for ordinary Greek folk at the moment, who are just trying to get on with life. It doesnt sound like anything we have in Ireland yet and hopefully we never will get to this stage.

johnnyskeleton

Would people on welfare, pensioners and state employees get free t-shirts?

Peanut

oscarBravo wrote: »

Great. And taking to the streets is going to improve their situation... how, exactly?

This is the perfect time for the Greeks to up the ante. Some of them may see a chance to oust ingrained disparity in their system (it can be difficult for us to understand this as we're not as familiar in western Europe with the dynamics behind coups and popular uprisings). Their problem isn't just with the current Government (or even necessarily the austerity measures themselves), but the entire political class that's seen (correctly or not) as the primary beneficiaries of the "boom".

Athens had seen plenty of political protests before the crash, but there was no compelling urgency behind them until now.

Again while some of the protestors may be simply trying to have their cake and eat it, I think it does a disservice to the others to lump them all together as "Greedy Greeks".

later12

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't have an issue with protesting per se, but I have an issue with the oft-expressed sentiment that taking to the streets will achieve anything other than catharsis.

You believe the only thing that a protest can achieve is a catharsis? I'm not quite sure where to start with that one.

A protest is a very valid, and potentially a very potent means of influencing public policy. As Western democracies, we affirm the right to a protest as a means of exercising influence, as opposed to other more retrograde means of resistance. And public protests have been instrumental in bringing about more desirable public policy or in consolidating political pressure in the past - see the Tea Party protests in the US, out of which was borne the movement of the same name, for a recent example.

I dont think the majority of the Greeks are fighting for no austerity, I think that given the level of corruption in the country and the economic inefficiencies, a considerable number are likely to be protesting for fairer austerity. I find that perfectly reasonable, it is slightly ludicrous to suggest that the only thing achievable is a catharsis.

If the Greek people want the current government out, fine - but why? From what I can see, mostly because the current government is trying to impose austerity

Or because they wish for Greece to reprofile their debt - which is reasonable - or to implement a fair austerity - which is also reasonable - I have been following the Greek situation, like everybody else, for some time and I am not really sure why you have come to that conclusion over all other possibilities.

Your belief would suggest that the Greek public want government expenditures to remain the same, which I do not find particularly credible. I find it far more credible that Greece want fair austerity and a review of their debt, without a new bailout. If I were in Greece, that is exactly what I would be arguing for as well.

I should add that we, in Ireland, for our own reasons, ought not support the protestors. From our p.o.v, the deeper the austerity the better and the less likely a reprofile or a restructuring of Greek debt, the better. It would be entirely wrong of us to show solidarity with the Greeks from our own, understandably selfish perspective.

This conflict of interest highlights, in its own way, the unworkable nature of the present structure of the Eurozone.

Icepick

Boulevardier wrote: »

Privatisation is a disastrous policy at the best of times, and forced privatisation to pay off speculators is doubly so.

Source?

Boulevardier

Eircom. Britain's railways. Bolivian water.

Icepick

Boulevardier wrote: »

Eircom. Britain's railways. Bolivian water.

I mean statistics and studies, not 3 random names.

And how is opening a market to competition and breaking of monopoly "a disastrous policy?"

djpbarry

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No, they didn’t – that’s kind of the point. Greece took a bailout with strings attached, then cut all the strings. Now, lo and behold, a second bailout is required.

Boulevardier wrote: »

No. The Greeks are being asked to sell off their own property to pay off the bankers and the EU.

No, the Greeks are being asked to balance their books in exchange for short-term assistance in meeting their debt repayments.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Indeed – the Ethiopian economy is booming.

Boulevardier

Don't be silly, Icepick. It is an opinion, based on observation, experience and common sense, not an academic hypothesis. If everybody had to give peer-reviewed sources for every opinion expressed, then political debate would dry up pretty fast.

Incidentally, the figures do prove that Greeks work longer hours than Germans.

goat2

we have had enough waste of money on non essentials like phone calls, free lunches, acommodation, we do not need to waste anymore, i hope this t shirt thing is a joke

later12

Boulevardier wrote: »

Incidentally, the figures do prove that Greeks work longer hours than Germans.

Dial up takes longer than broadband, too.

That doesn't really say anything about productivity or efficiency.

Icepick

Boulevardier wrote: »

Don't be silly, Icepick. It is an opinion, based on observation, experience and common sense, not an academic hypothesis. If everybody had to give peer-reviewed sources for every opinion expressed, then political debate would dry up pretty fast.

So you have no sources to back your ridiculous claims.
Admitting that's it's just an out-of-the-hat opinion is a good start though.

Observation and experience prove you wrong too.

mgmt

Boulevardier wrote: »

Incidentally, the figures do prove that Greeks work longer hours than Germans.

Ireland produces 15 times more exports than Greece

Lapin

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that such a T-shirt would show a disgusting lack of solidarity with the Greek people, who, unlike us, have shown some backbone.

Solidarity my backside.

The average Greek gives about as much of a fiddlers about Ireland as the average Irish person gives a toss about Greece.

Sweet FA.

Boulevardier

Thats fine with me, as long as you agree that the EU is probably f****d as a consequence!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Lapin wrote: »

Solidarity my backside.

The average Greek gives about as much of a fiddlers about Ireland as the average Irish person gives a toss about Greece.

Sweet FA.

Unfortunately.

Lapin

Boulevardier wrote: »

Thats fine with me, as long as you agree that the EU is probably f****d as a consequence!

Yes.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Unfortunately.

And yes.