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Gay Pride - Embarrassing or Empowering?
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23-06-2011 1:25pm#1
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:eek: That's a contentious issue Rochey84. Have a read of this, you'll find it enlightning. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056278290
Pride is a really, really divisive issue...for the life of me I can't think why, but it has something to do with the politics of representation, who represents who and how responsible that image is when projected into the mainstream media.
For a really contraversial thread you should have accompanied your poll with an image of a buff greased up topless man.
Good idea though, I'm really interested to see what the AHers have to say.0 -
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At least today's kids know there are gay people like them in the world.
Excellent point, there are still a lot of isolated young people who feel like they're the only gay in the village. I was one, but this was way before internet access was everywhere. My only perception of otehr gay people was GCN which appeared in the local library for three months and then disappeared.
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That's just it - a small minority of the parade are dressed - NOT the entire parade
Everyone always focuses on the clothes and costumes. I think that the ladies are protesting too much, there must be something in it.
Also, Rochey (and no offense intended here at all), but the OP and poll is a little loaded. In AH a lot of the respondees are citing that it's embaressing, whereas I could be pretty sure that this is the first time some of them have ever given any thoughts to Pride. Possibly a different choice of wording would be better- empowering or redundant perhaps?0 -
Everyone always focuses on the clothes and costumes. I think that the ladies are protesting too much, there must be something in it.
Also, Rochey (and no offense intended here at all), but the OP and poll is a little loaded. In AH a lot of the respondees are citing that it's embaressing, whereas I could be pretty sure that this is the first time some of them have ever given any thoughts to Pride. Possibly a different choice of wording would be better- empowering or redundant perhaps?
But its the nature of the people who dress up who make it embarrassing for the LGBT community, its not redunant because we don't have full equal status in the eyes of the law0 -
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Everyone always focuses on the clothes and costumes. I think that the ladies are protesting too much, there must be something in it.
Sigh..... I have been to about 8 pride parades in Dublin and 2 or 3 in Belfast - Yes some people dress up flamboyantly - SO BLOODY WHAT? - The vast majority are dressed up as they normally would. Now the Media might pick out the flamboyant dressers but so bloody what?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Been to a few prides now including last year and I'm still in limbo about it. There are many minority groups in the LGBT community and for that reason I feel it is a good day. Its nice to have that time to be your self but I think it depends on were you are in your life. If you feel the need or whatever to do the whole thing then its great.
I went last year and it was a total drunkfest with pubs open all day and couldnt help feeling like alot of cashing in and ripping off was going on. It makes me wonder if the pride stoped what would the financial ramifications be for Dublin/Pubs? 0 -
Having never been to a pride parade .I cant say but I find it symbolic in a way.
when them do -good Christians come out with their plaquards and expect people to take notice of them ,we see people lining the streets to see how we as a society have come along way from the days of utter ignorance towards the community . The people who standby to watch the parade are also good ,it shows their willingness to embrace change and support regardless of oppression from other groups .
Plus its colourful
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I'm still incredibly undecided on the whole "pride" thing. On one hand I see that it is an opportunity to show people that the LGBT community is not scary and that the members aren't faceless monsters and the spawn of Satan. One the other hand even the word 'pride' conjures images of scantily clad men dancing around the streets. Which makes me cringe almost immediately as they attract the most attention, and although being upstanding citizens will be percieved by many as what all gays look like and act like, which can be negative in the minds of the (somewhat) closed-minded Irish public.
My opinion is still undecided, even throughout writing this post I've changed my mind numerous times as to my point. There are both positive and negatives to pride but I do admire the confidence of those who march and I respect them a lot, I just hope that al of those who march realise that it is not an excuse to get trollied but rather a chance to show that being gay is not a disease nor an aberration in society.
Well, that's what I think it could be but I may be mistaken having never been to an actual parade, although one did go past me in Galway. Shopping with m mother at the time I looked away embarrassed trying to to look too closely in case she copped on
:o. 0 -
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I agree with crayolastereo that not all gay rights have been won and that even when we reach full legal equality there will be work to be done, ongoing work, for the rights of LGBT people as the minority that we are to be respected.
In honour of the day thats in it I think maybe it would be useful to be reminded of where Pride comes from and that all the arguments we are having here about it were arguments people put forward way back then as well.
Right from the beginning of LGBT activism and people just looking to be treated equally to others there have been arguments about the best tactics to achieve this.
Some wanted to go the respectable route and prove we are no different than anyone else and found the drag queens, the butch dykes, the trannys the effeminate men etc all to embarassing and detrimental to the cause they were trying to achieve.
Some said all this respectibility and keeping your head down just isnt working
and besides we are different, we are diverse and we like our differences and dont want to tell people to stop being who they are just cos they are embarassing to some people.
In my opinion it isnt an either or situation we need both approaches.
Sometimes the clean respectable approach works and thanks are due to those who do that work and sometimes you just have to say get the f**k out of my way, and that can work too.
Ill put up a few quotes to illustrate my point from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
Long post so just skip it if its of no interest to you.
Also there is an interesting documentary on this history the trailer to it can be seen hereThroughout the 1950s and 1960s, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and police departments kept lists of known homosexuals, their favored establishments, and friends; the U.S. Post Office kept track of addresses where material pertaining to homosexuality was mailed.[9] State and local governments followed suit: bars catering to homosexuals were shut down, and their customers were arrested and exposed in newspapers. Cities performed "sweeps" to rid neighborhoods, parks, bars, and beaches of gays. They outlawed the wearing of opposite gender clothes, and universities expelled instructors suspected of being homosexual.[10] Thousands of gay men and women were publicly humiliated, physically harassed, fired, jailed, or institutionalized in mental hospitals. Many lived double lives, keeping their private lives secret from their professional onesin 1953 the Mattachine Organisation working for Gay rights shifted their focus to assimilation and respectability. They reasoned that they would change more minds about homosexuality by proving that gays and lesbians were normal people, no different from heterosexuals.On the outer fringes of the few small gay communities were people who challenged gender expectations......They belied the carefully crafted image portrayed by the Mattachine Society and DOB that asserted homosexuals were respectable, normal people.[Police raids on gay bars were frequent—occurring on average once a month for each bar......
At 1:20 in the morning on Saturday, June 28, 1969The raid did not go as planned. Standard procedure was to line up the patrons, check their identification, and have female police officers take customers dressed as women to the bathroom to verify their sex, upon which any men dressed as women would be arrested. Those dressed as women that night refused to go with the officers. Men in line began to refuse to produce their identification. The police decided to take everyone present to the police station, and separated the transvestites in a room in the back of the bar. .
Both patrons and police recalled that a sense of discomfort spread very quickly, spurred by police who began to "bully" some of the lesbians by "feeling some of them up inappropriately" while frisking them...
A scuffle broke out when a woman in handcuffs was escorted from the door of the bar to the waiting police wagon several times. She escaped repeatedly and fought with four of the police, swearing and shouting, for about ten minutes. Described as "a typical New York butch" and "a dyke—stone butch", she had been hit on the head by an officer with a billy club for, as one witness claimed, complaining that her handcuffs were too tight.[60] Bystanders recalled that the woman, whose identity remains unknown,[note 3] sparked the crowd to fight when she looked at bystanders and shouted, "Why don't you guys do something?" After an officer picked her up and heaved her into the back of the wagon,[61] the crowd became a mob and went "berserk": "It was at that moment that the scene became explosiveWe all had a collective feeling like we'd had enough of this kind of ****. It wasn't anything tangible anybody said to anyone else, it was just kind of like everything over the years had come to a head on that one particular night in the one particular place, and it was not an organized demonstration.... Everyone in the crowd felt that we were never going to go back. It was like the last straw. It was time to reclaim something that had always been taken from us.Not everyone in the gay community considered the revolt a positive development. To many older gays and many members of the Mattachine Society that had worked throughout the 1960s to promote homosexuals as no different from heterosexuals, the display of violence and effeminate behavior was embarrassing. Randy Wicker, who had marched in the first gay picket lines before the White House in 1965, said the "screaming queens forming chorus lines and kicking went against everything that I wanted people to think about homosexuals ... that we were a bunch of drag queens in the Village acting disorderly and tacky and cheap.Historian Lillian Faderman calls the riots the "shot heard round the world", explaining, "The Stonewall Rebellion was crucial because it sounded the rally for that movement. It became an emblem of gay and lesbian power. By calling on the dramatic tactic of violent protest that was being used by other oppressed groups, the events at the Stonewall implied that homosexuals had as much reason to be disaffected as they.0 -
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no not at all but thanks for askingdeirdre_dub wrote: »Well, I was on the parade yesterday.
I was marching for trans rights - I was holding a placquard that I put together earlier on in the day in the TENI offices. It wasn't that much of a street party for me - though it was good to spend time with friends, many of whom were also holding placquards or banners. I didn't make a tit of myself, and I didn't puke once all day. As for the straights - the only reaction that I'm aware of that I got from straights was as we were heading to the parade, when someone shouted "spot the fscking f*ggot" at us.
So maybe you would like to re-consider the way that you are lumping those who attend pride parades together? :rolleyes: :mad:
there are bound to be people like you. there are bound to be people like me and there are bound to be people representing the straights.
its called the law of averages and does not represent any group fully.0 -
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apache good for you being out to colleagues and clients.
Anyone being out is doing their bit for LGBT visibility and in their own way breaking down the walls of silence and ignorance.
Im not saying that the respectable people among us are not doing a fine job putting forward a good image of what it means to be LGBT.
Im saying like it or not there is another image than the respectable just like anyone else image, because there are other kinds of people who are LGBT.
Some people may not like that or be embarassed by it but they are part of our community too, thats what the rainbow flag is about diversity.
If you look at the film clip or read my first post or the link I gave you will see it was precisely these people on the fringes that revolted and took to the streets in Stonewall and in a way, as a heritage, this is their day.
I can understand the feeling sometimes of being at the parade and wondering what is all this about and looking around and realising half the people there dont know what it is about.
I understand the feeling but what I have written previously is what I remind myself it is about.
apache there wasnt an LGBT support group in my union and then we saw the need for one and created one.
In answer to your question re job security of teachers if out I dont want to make the situation worse by suggesting dismissal would be an automatic consequence.
Section 37 is part of the equality act, its an exemption within it, it doesnt overide it
Some LGBT teachers are out and it is fine but I dont wish to go off topic so if you wish to find out more on the issue read here.
http://www.gcn.ie/feature.aspx?sectionid=14&articleid=2550
http://www.mamanpoulet.com/section-37-of-employment-equality-act-raised-at-teachers-conference/#more-6135
i had a reply sent to you but here we go again
yeah thanks for that. i think it is important re visibility.
i do it all year round not once a year in a good time charlie time re pride parade.
i was in touch with g-force (we work closely together) but to no avail.
even they said it was a no go.
i tried to set up a platform in my job for LGBT people. nobody was interested. i strived for it. i put my heart and soul into it. all the gays were not interested. they can be quite vocal in the locker room and when you talk to them one on one but when they are faced with the thoughts of coming out and fighting for their rights they go back into their shells.
i have tried. i cannot possibly do this by myself and yet these very people although don't march in the parade certainly go out later that night when all the spotlights have died down and celebrate pride. this is not pride to me.
i will look at those links another time. thanks. i am interested in them.0 -
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deirdre_dub wrote: »Well, I was on the parade yesterday.
I was marching for trans rights - I was holding a placquard that I put together earlier on in the day in the TENI offices. It wasn't that much of a street party for me - though it was good to spend time with friends, many of whom were also holding placquards or banners. I didn't make a tit of myself, and I didn't puke once all day. As for the straights - the only reaction that I'm aware of that I got from straights was as we were heading to the parade, when someone shouted "spot the fscking f*ggot" at us.
So maybe you would like to re-consider the way that you are lumping those who attend pride parades together?
I seen the pics Your placards were cool 0 -
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The French seem to have their own problems too despite the appearance of a very liberal and particular attitude to sex.
Some, particularly French women, would believe that the tolerance for using others sexually as a kind of entertainment is in need of a bit of questioning.
This is evident in the reaction to the arrest due to allegations of attempted rape of a hotel employee by IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
They also have a particularly active conservative right and dont have legalisation of Marriage or adoption rights for LGBT people.
So while Ireland and France have their differences I would imagine the arguments around the Pride Parade are much the same.
For a look at a French Website where they discuss these issues see here
http://yagg.com/category/gay-pride-zoom-sur/
If you view that website in Explorer you can use the translation button and read it in English.
Not all of Europe has had such a good time at Pride this year.
We may have it easy, well some of us feel we have it easy, and we may be asking whats the point, but there are others who are currently having much more of a political struggle and sometimes have to contend with Neo Nazis.
Croatia 2011
St Perersburg 2011
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