Tax on classics

manatoo

Ok 2 questions -

1 - For a car to qualify as 30 years old in the eyes of the tax man, does it have to be over 30 years old on the date that it is taxed? (As in if you went to pay the tax on the 22nd June it would be 30 years old if the car was registered before 22nd June 1981 but it would be 29 years old if the car was registered on the 23rd June 1981) or would is it that the car would have to be a 1980?

2 - Realistically, does every guy with a merc or cadillac or jag registered in the mid 1980s pay €1600 a year road tax? Is there any blind eye granted by the boys in blue for tax on cars which are clearly being used as classics?

corktina

1 yes but you might pull the wool over their eyes if they dont check too closely

2 no and no (look around at car shows if you need evidence that plenty are chancing it ..and by doing so are putting the concessions the rest of us get in jeopardy)

manatoo

How is tax for classics applied in the UK? Is it the same 30 year rule? It's totally ridiculous. I've had my eye on a 1986 Series III XJ6 for a while. I'm not a wealthy person, the car would be mine for €2000, classic second car insurance would be reasonable and I'd have an affordable hobby for the odd sunny weekend but no, €1600 A YEAR for road tax, it's a total crime.

macplaxton

For Manatoo:

UK annual VED (converted to EURO at today's rates for comparison):

Historic (constructed before 1/1/1973) = NIL
1/1/1973-28/2/2001 not over 1549cc = €146
1/1/1973-28/2/2001 over 1549cc = £242

6 month discs are half of the above +10% e.g. €80 / €133
Refund can be issued if off the road for every whole month remaining on disc.

Petrol is about 1% dearer, diesel 12% more expensive.
MOT annually for all cars over 3 years old - €62 (maximum price)
Typical classic car insurance €110 upwards.

Average council tax on a typical property is around €1700.

'orses for courses methinks :rolleyes:.

manatoo

I'm going to vomit. So unfair.

I can't believe there's absolutely no way around this. If you import a car and bring it for registration, how do they prove the engine that's in it is a 4.0 petrol for example? Do they look in the owner's manual? Previous UK reg documents?

corktina

why unfair? you dont HAVE to buy a big engined car.

They go by the UK V5C to determine engine size,.

You need to read the info posted elsewhere here to got the full requirements to re-register it

manatoo

Unfair because with all due respect, most great classics of legendary lore don't have 1.6 engines.

I guess it's just a lost cause owning an 80s jag here so.

Cheers for the info anyway

trevorbrady

It's easy to legally avoid the high road tax on large engined (almost) classics by simply buying an older model that satisfies the 30 year rule... As corktina mantioned, you don't HAVE to buy the 1986 model...

DaveCol

Or just tax it for three months in the summer (or six months if you like) when you are going to use it, and store it away during the winter

manatoo

Yeah but the one I have my eye on is 1986 and anyway for this particular car the 1979-1981 examples are a disaster in every sense. Not the same car as the post 83 ones really.

Yeah, using for the summer months only is an option but I just know I'd get insurmountable urges to use it in the rest of the year which would lead to me splurgin even more tax or driving without tax...which is just never wise....

unkel

manatoo wrote: »

Unfair because with all due respect, most great classics of legendary lore don't have 1.6 engines.

I guess it's just a lost cause owning an 80s jag here so.

Cheers for the info anyway

It is unfair. How can it be fair to drive 100,000 miles in a modern cancer causing diesel and pay €104 and to potter about in your 80s Jag for 1000, maybe 2,000 miles per year sets you back €1,566?

As the others said though, you know this before you buy the car. You don't have to buy an 80s car with a big engine as your classic

manatoo

unkel wrote: »

It is unfair. How can it be fair to drive 100,000 miles in a modern cancer causing diesel and pay €104 and to potter about in your 80s Jag for 1000, maybe 2,000 miles per year sets you back €1,566?

Exactly as unkle says. The same thing goes for the scrappage scheme. If the aim is to bring down carbon emissions, then it makes zero sense that an 80 year old woman with a 20 year old micra doing 1500 miles a year can get a taxpayer funded discount on a brand new car dragged out of the ground at huge impact to resources and the environment just to sit outside her door doing 1500 miles a year same as the micra was. These things have got to be related to mileage or they don't make any sense whatsoever.

Even if the government wanted to maintain a high tax rate for big engined cars due to the numbers which would use them as daily drivers if the rate was lower for cars over say 15 or 20 years (which would still be a tiny number because by definition, those who own big engined cruisers when they get to this age are generally unable to afford the petrol that 10,000 miles a year would require) , couldn't they have a mileage declaration and second car requirement same as classic insurance issuers do?

You have a porsche unkle right? What engine is in that? How do you manage tax etc?

corktina

its fair so long as the same rules apply to everyone, and are rigidly enforced.

manatoo

corktina wrote: »

its fair so long as the same rules apply to everyone, and are rigidly enforced.

I think the point is that, as unkel described, forcing people with 28 year old cars that are covering a few hundred miles a year as a hobby to pay the same tax as people covering 35,000 miles a year where the tax is paid by a company and the car is hammering up and down motorways every day of the week is unfair.

macplaxton

Much as I don't like the system. It's fair in the sense that it hasn't happened overnight, it's long been this way.

Now if I had the urge to buy a Jag (I'd have an British Leyland 1980 XJ12 for personal reasons.) I'd move to the UK rather than grumble and bleat. That's what the EU is all about. Free to move round.

The tax regime here is better for 1973-1980 cars, which is why them sort of cars end up heading west. Two cars, same model one historic tax, one £215 are worth quite different sums.

Everyone needs somewhere to live, so I the point still stands about the Council Tax. What they don't take off you one way, they'll take off you in another anyway.

manatoo

macplaxton wrote: »

Now if I had the urge to buy a Jag (I'd have an British Leyland 1980 XJ12 for personal reasons.) I'd move to the UK rather than grumble and bleat. That's what the EU is all about. Free to move round.

Hardly a very practical solution is it!?!?! You must not have much tying you to here??

carchaeologist

trevorbrady wrote: »

It's easy to legally avoid the high road tax on large engined (almost) classics by simply buying an older model that satisfies the 30 year rule... As corktina mantioned, you don't HAVE to buy the 1986 model...

Or buy the '86 one and ring it as is being done now increasingly to avoid the NCT...:rolleyes:

unkel

manatoo wrote: »

You have a porsche unkle right? What engine is in that?

Yep, '86 Porsche 928 S2 4.7l V8

manatoo wrote: »

How do you manage tax etc?

At the moment I don't manage tax. It's off the road

spooky donkey

I think the point about the council tax is saying we dont have it so cheap car tax is not such a good thing. Problem is they will bring that council tax in here soon enough justifying it by saying they have it every where else all the while keeping our car tax the same or even putting it up...

I have to say one thing I noticed about the UK, I was there for a week last week and for the whole week I think I spoted 4 classic cars. I see more than that driving into work every morning in Ireland, never mind a sunday afternoon.

Confusedvrtman

manatoo wrote: »

I'm not a wealthy person, the car would be mine for €2000, classic second car insurance would be reasonable and I'd have an affordable hobby for the odd sunny weekendQUOTE]

Exactly same situation as yourself, got insursance on american car for 335 fully comp and 4k miles as 2nd policy, the tax is a killer though.

Like was said by someone I wont be taxing it all year either, 6 months at most Id say but most likely 3 and just use it for the summer.

Thats the setup we have though so not much we can do, as was also said no-one forcing you to get that car so unfortunaly thats the cost that goes with it if you do

corktina

if you go into a cake shop and they have cakes at €1 €2 and €3 and you want the €3 size, then you have to pay €3 for it... even if everyone else is buying the small ones for €1

sorry thought it was the baking forum.;)

simplybam

Have rules in Ireland changed recently regarding classic tax? I had a 1979 VW camper back in 2006 - so at the time it was 27 years old. I got it taxed as a classic (at the time a car was a classic if it was 25+ years and a vintage if it was 30+ years, or so I was told when I went to the motor tax office to tax it).

Now I recently bought a 1982 motor bike. When I went to the motor tax office to tax it I had to pay full tax (lol, being a bike it still costs less per year than my car costs per month). The lady tried everything but just couldn't get it through as a classic/vintage - will have to wait another year for that.

So if I got classic tax on my 27 year old car in 2006 (got a classic reg too - one of those 'CJX 7931 type plates), how can I not get the same on my even older bike now?

Thanx for any input

macplaxton

simplybam wrote: »

Have rules in Ireland changed recently regarding classic tax?

For motor tax NO (30 years). For VRT it went up 1st May 2010. VRT on motorcycles is different and there is no "30 year-old" rule for motorcycles.

If you got cheap tax before 30 years, then I'd keep quiet about it as some chump in the office must have made a clerical error.

Redrocket

or because it was a camper van, which regardless of age get camper van tax

simplybam

Redrocket wrote: »

or because it was a camper van, which regardless of age get camper van tax

But I also got a classic reg for the van, so it wasn't a camper issue, but a classic car thing - I'm still very confused about this.

I'll try to find the reg from photos I took of the car if that'll help, but I sold it to the UK. only used it for a trip around Europe.

Will get back to y'all

Anan1

manatoo wrote: »

How is tax for classics applied in the UK? Is it the same 30 year rule? It's totally ridiculous. I've had my eye on a 1986 Series III XJ6 for a while. I'm not a wealthy person, the car would be mine for €2000, classic second car insurance would be reasonable and I'd have an affordable hobby for the odd sunny weekend but no, €1600 A YEAR for road tax, it's a total crime.

If the tax on that car was €50pa do you still think you'd buy it for €2000? People often forget that motor tax and purchase price are inextricably linked; the car is cheap because the tax is high.

macplaxton

Anan1 we did put the OP's part of the thread to bed about 2 months ago. We're (well I am at least) concentrating on the threadjack...:pac:

Anan1

macplaxton wrote: »

Anan1 we did put the OP's part of the thread to bed about 2 months ago. We're (well I am at least) concentrating on the threadjack...:pac:

Sorry, I never checked the dates!

okistag

I know this has been covered before but just read this thread and felt I wanted to say the following.

Personally I argee that our roadtax is crazy here, and does not make sense at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It cannot be justified

Also one can not compare us to the UK for many reasons!! The number of vehicles on the road in UK is huge compared to here and all paying road tax even at a lower rate than us but the numbers are far greater.

Many of us have driven there, YOU CANNOT compare the generial condition of the roads between the two countries. Their A and B roads are just perfect and their motorways etc.

Here we have just crap A and B roads our motorways are tolled!!

So in the UK I can see where council tax and road tax etc goes.

Here I just cant see where all the road tax goes at all.

We pay taxes through our ... we pay road tax, we pay toll charges, Fuel etc and look at what we get !!!!! for all this.
Road tax was in place as far back as ..... for the purpose of building and maintaining ROADS. If we as the tax payer asked for the accounts books and went through them how much of our cash has gone into roads!!!!! Just look at the roads and ask yourself!

I could go on but I wont as I am sure we all can see my point and I would be shocked if someone disagreed, I just feel ripped off!!

Dont take me wrong I dont agree with tax rate but at least let us see something for it!!

Anan1

okistag wrote: »

I know this has been covered before but just read this thread and felt I wanted to say the following.

Personally I argee that our roadtax is crazy here, and does not make sense at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It cannot be justified

Also one can not compare us to the UK for many reasons!! The number of vehicles on the road in UK is huge compared to here and all paying road tax even at a lower rate than us but the numbers are far greater.

Many of us have driven there, YOU CANNOT compare the generial condition of the roads between the two countries. Their A and B roads are just perfect and their motorways etc.

Here we have just crap A and B roads our motorways are tolled!!

So in the UK I can see where council tax and road tax etc goes.

Here I just cant see where all the road tax goes at all.

We pay taxes through our ... we pay road tax, we pay toll charges, Fuel etc and look at what we get !!!!! for all this.
Road tax was in place as far back as ..... for the purpose of building and maintaining ROADS. If we as the tax payer asked for the accounts books and went through them how much of our cash has gone into roads!!!!! Just look at the roads and ask yourself!

I could go on but I wont as I am sure we all can see my point and I would be shocked if someone disagreed, I just feel ripped off!!

Dont take me wrong I dont agree with tax rate but at least let us see something for it!!

Motor tax is a tax on car ownership/use. It goes straight to the exchequer, and is not set aside for building or maintaining roads. Our roads are paid for out of the general government purse.

macplaxton

Anan1 wrote: »

Motor tax is a tax on car ownership/use. It goes straight to the exchequer, and is not set aside for building or maintaining roads. Our roads are paid for out of the general government purse.

In the UK it is the same, it's not road tax, but Vehicle Excise Duty and a tiny proportion gets spent on roads, the rest disappears into the public pot.

Also your average UK motorist, will whinge and whine about the state of A,B and local roads most of which are the responsibility of the local authority. Diesel is second most expensive in the EU. Swings and roundabouts.

okistag

Anan1 wrote: »

Motor tax is a tax on car ownership/use. It goes straight to the exchequer, and is not set aside for building or maintaining roads. Our roads are paid for out of the general government purse.

Hi Anan1

My understanding of road tax, was as I understood it and I am open to correction.. however when i looked it up on google I found this, on citizens information which confirms my thoughts, however yours does explain why are roads are so bad. on http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_tax_rates.html
"It is a legal requirement in Ireland to have motor tax if you want to drive your vehicle in a public place. Motor tax is a charge imposed by the Government on some motor vehicles. The revenue from this tax is used to maintain and upgrade the road network in Ireland. Motor tax is collected by your local authority on behalf of the Government."

Yes alot of people in the UK complain and their A and B roads, they are not like ours.

macplaxton

okistag wrote: »

Yes alot of people in the UK complain and their A and B roads, they are not like ours.

True, they are very heavily congested