Ryanair set for China design deal

David086

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0618/1224299153102.html

Not sure how comfortable I'd be when getting onto an unknown Aircraft. How about you?

IRISH LOW-COST airline Ryanair and China’s state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd (Comac) are expected to sign a co-operation agreement next week in what could be the first step in a collaboration between the pair to design and put into service a jet aircraft.

Informed sources suggest the agreement will be signed at the Paris Air Show, a major industry trade event starting tomorrow. It will not tie Ryanair into an order with Comac, or require any funding from the Irish airline.

The two groups will collaborate on the design and configuration of Comac’s proposed C919 passenger jet that could be put into service by Ryanair and other short-haul carriers.

It is a major deal for Comac given Ryanair is Europe’s biggest short-haul carrier.

Such an aircraft – capable of carrying about 190 passengers – could be put into service in late 2016, subject to approvals and certifications from regulators.

Ryanair is in the final stages of a large aircraft order with US manufacturer Boeing, and is keen to source new aircraft at competitive prices.

Talks with Boeing on a new deal broke down last year over pricing, while its French rival Airbus has refused to meet Ryanair’s terms on a potential order.

Ryanair currently flies only Boeing 737 jets.

The Irish carrier, led by Michael O’Leary, has signalled in recent months its interest in talking with Russian and Chinese manufacturers.

The opportunity is one of a number of link-ups Comac is keen to forge as China sets out to develop a civil aviation industry.

Aircraft makers often consult airlines on issues such as cabin layout and operating economics.

Comac is developing the C919 as a rival to the Airbus A320 family of aircraft, and Boeing’s 737. The C919 is a two-engine, single-aisle aircraft and is the most ambitious jetliner project developed in China to date.

A number of western aircraft makers have set up production facilities in China.

Last year, Comac signed an agreement with British Airways to discuss aircraft design.

The Ryanair pact with Comac will be similar to BA’s.

Tenger

David086 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0618/1224299153102.html

Not sure how comfortable I'd be when getting onto an unknown Aircraft. How about you?

IF Ryanair use these aircraft it will have been tested as rigorously as any new design (ie B787/A350) After all they still have to pass the EU regs to operate here. EU have banned some airlines and/or ex-Soviet designs in recent years

....'unknown aircraft' is a bit dramatic.

10-10-20

While it's true to say that the plane will be subject to the same rigorous tests as any other model, nobody will know the long-term effects of Ryanair's punishing schedule on such a beast.
I take comfort in knowing that when I step onto any plane in a European airline, I'm stepping onto something that has been stressed, tested & monitored through use in a working environment. COMAC aren't coming from that same level, I for one won't be looking forward to this development.

I'll go out on a limb and say: Chinese quality seems to be at the same level as European & US quality was in the late 50's.

Oh dear - I just found this in Wikipedia... "Chinese aerospace manufacturer established on May 11, 2008 in Shanghai, China" They are 3 years old so their wealth of experience in making safe aircraft comes from what resource exactly?

rorymcgrory

If ryAnair start flying to china I will definitely be taking a trip over.

Do you think the same rules apply regarding baggage etc?

10-10-20

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McWotever

I wouldn't be rushing out to but shares in this company!

Not a chance, think of the logistics to retrain/rehire pilots to get rated on it.

This is MO'L were talking about, he has just seen another opportunity to get Ryanair's name in the paper. And how much did it cost him to advertise Ryanair in the Independent today .... Nothing! Free of Charge! Another advertising mission successful for Ryanair. I dont know how the papers keep falling for this, what a legend he is.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Wats_in_a_name

There standards might be unknown now but you can be sure Ryanair will only buy the aircraft if they are safe and have been fully tested. They know that once serious accident can and probably will destroy them since they are a LCC.

Tabnabs

An interesting move, but probably just MOL trying to put the shíts up Boeing.

Here's a short piece on the aircraft itself

http://www.cnngo.com/explorations/life/made-china-passenger-jet-c919-takes-boeing-and-airbus-489192

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

joegriffinjnr

Dear Comac, Boeing would like their Next Generation interior back, please!

Was thinking about that myself, also the exterior design smacks of a 787!

cgarrad

Id say Comac have every blueprint and design file from both Boeing and Airbus thank to their crack team of hackers.... :rolleyes:

scudzilla

In that space where they have 8 seats MoL will probably fit 30 ordinary seats

Tenger

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very true. This will be there 1st design. I would agree that they have to prove their ability to deliver the production aircraft on schedule and to the design specs. However the age of the company may not be a factor as I suspect the company was created specifically for this design. I doubt the engineers and designers are novices......although the lengthy gestation period for the PLAAF J-10 doesn't bode well for the C919...........

10-10-20

cgarrad wrote: »

Id say Comac have every blueprint and design file from both Boeing and Airbus thank to their crack team of hackers.... :rolleyes:

It's not about what Airbus and Boeing know about Comac, but what they don't know that Comac know.

iPlop

10-10-20 wrote: »

It's not about what Airbus and Boeing know about Comac, but what they don't know that Comac know.

I just hope the Chinese are better at designing "knock off" A320/737's ,than they are at knock off electronics.Their lack of experience in the CPJ market scares me, I'd probably pay the extra few quid to fly on an Airbus or a Boeing.

Buffman

According to the net Comac have 239 orders for their DC-9/B717 'knock off' the ARJ21 so they'll be around for a while.



But knowing MOL this is another carefully crafted story just for the benifit of Boeing and Airbus for any future negotiations.

Run_to_da_hills

If O'Leary considers this plane he will bring on an extra headache to his company's current single aircraft type business model

He will now have to train pilots to fly a different aircraft, purchase new simulators, retrain aircraft mechanics, set up new inventories for ordering spare parts, extra space for storage etc etc. Will all the above be worth the price difference between the two aircraft's?

It looks obvious to me that its a bluff to try and get Boeing to renegotiate their prices and British Airways are doing the very same.

Jim236

10-10-20 wrote: »

While it's true to say that the plane will be subject to the same rigorous tests as any other model, nobody will know the long-term effects of Ryanair's punishing schedule on such a beast.
I take comfort in knowing that when I step onto any plane in a European airline, I'm stepping onto something that has been stressed, tested & monitored through use in a working environment. COMAC aren't coming from that same level, I for one won't be looking forward to this development.

The same can be said about any new western aircraft. But all aircraft are tested under conditions they would never be put through in normal flight. Tests are also done to establish the amount of landing and takeoff cycles an aircraft can complete before it must undergo maintenance/overhauls. So it doesn't matter how much or how little an aircraft is utilised, once it reaches a certain number of landings/takeoffs, it must undergo the same maintenance. So if Ryanair choose to utilise an aircraft more than other airlines would, it just means they have more frequent maintenance to carry out.

10-10-20 wrote: »

I'll go out on a limb and say: Chinese quality seems to be at the same level as European & US quality was in the late 50's.

Oh dear - I just found this in Wikipedia... "Chinese aerospace manufacturer established on May 11, 2008 in Shanghai, China" They are 3 years old so their wealth of experience in making safe aircraft comes from what resource exactly?

Many components of western design aircraft are produced in China, and Airbus itself has an A320 production plant in China.

Run_to_da_hills

Jim236 wrote: »

Many components of western design aircraft are produced in China, and Airbus itself has an A320 production plant in China.

More so a reason why the Comac C919 will be some sort of a "knock off" of the A320 aircraft.

IngazZagni

Come on people, it's a co-operation agreement, no deals and no money is being spent. It's the exact same agreement that British Airways entered into recently. I think it's great that there is some hope for a break up of the Airbus/Boeing duopoly. If Comac are successful it will only drive A and B to up their game even more.

For people claiming lack of experience. Remember Comac is a state owned company so they are getting their knowledge and experience from all the other state owned aircraft companies of China.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

More so a reason why the Comac C919 will be some sort of a "knock off" of the A320 aircraft.

It's a 190 seat airplane, similar to the a320/737-800. How different can they make it look without losing efficiency? A plane is not like a car where you can build them any shape you want. With that being said I believe dimensions are quite similar to the A320 allowing common materials to be used on both.

Here's a pic of the flight deck. Quite neat I have to say and of course it has 787/a350 similarities.

10-10-20

Jim236 wrote: »

Many components of western design aircraft are produced in China, and Airbus itself has an A320 production plant in China.

Yes, my point proven - Chinese components built to western specs for western companies.
There is a world of difference between these and Chinese components built to a Chinese spec for a company with no previous history of producing airframes.

IngazZagni

10-10-20 wrote: »

Yes, my point proven - Chinese components built to western specs for western companies.
There is a world of difference between these and Chinese components built to a Chinese spec for a company with no previous history of producing airframes.

Note my comment above, they have vasts amounts of experience, just not under the name Comac.

Also this is China's biggest push yet to get an aircraft normalized in the western market. I think you will see the C919 built to "western standards" and more. Anything less just won't do. If they are serious and I believe they are it could become quite a successful jet in the western world.
However with the A320NEO coming out around the same time, I would be skeptical if it could compete with such an efficient plane. Also with a potential 737 replacement around 2020 possible, again I think this damages the C919's chances. It will be very interesting to see the specs and performance on this thing over the next few months/years.

CaptainSkidmark

10-10-20 wrote: »

They are 3 years old so their wealth of experience in making safe aircraft comes from what resource exactly?

well i doubt they started out my making toilet bowls and then decided to throw their hand at aircraft!

I imagine those at the top and design came from other aircraft manufacturers

Jim236

10-10-20 wrote: »

Yes, my point proven - Chinese components built to western specs for western companies.

Actually your point was that the quality of Chinese aircraft was 50 years behind that of western aircraft, when the components for many western aircraft are actually built in China, and where there is also an A320 assembly line.

10-10-20 wrote: »

There is a world of difference between these and Chinese components built to a Chinese spec for a company with no previous history of producing airframes.

Whats with the hostility towards Chinese-made components? Nearly everything we use on a daily basis is made in China, and as I've said even the components for many western designed aircraft are produced in China, so whats your problem?

So what if its a new company, they have to start somewhere...

As long as it meets the safety requirements laid out by EASA, it shouldn't matter what country its made in.

iPlop

Jim236 wrote: »

So what if its a new company, they have to start somewhere...

As long as it meets the safety requirements laid out by EASA, it shouldn't matter what country its made in.

Thanks, but I'll fly Boeing or Airbus for the 20 years until they've a proven track record.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Buffman

The C919 apparently has 100 orders already, and there appears to be a lot of involvement by US firms such as GE, Honeywell and Rockwell. Even if it doesn't become an international best seller, I'd imagine the Domestic Chinese market will be its target market.

GE have ordered some C919's and ARJ21's so I'd imagine they'll be going for FAA certification on both eventually.

TBH I wouldn't have any trouble flying in any aircraft make once it's being certified.
And most of the traveling public wouldn't know one plane from another.

iPlop

Buffman wrote: »

TBH I wouldn't have any trouble flying in any aircraft make once it's being certified.
And most of the traveling public wouldn't know one plane from another.

Just because it's certified doesn't mean it's safe, think of all the certified aircraft over the years that had design flaws and crashed.Boeing have ironed out a lot of problems over the years to get to where they are now, and even now the 787 is suffering design flaw issues with the wing under stress tests.

And these guys are experts.

Jim236

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Just because it's certified doesn't mean it's safe, think of all the certified aircraft over the years that had design flaws and crashed.Boeing have ironed out a lot of problems over the years to get to where they are now, and even now the 787 is suffering design flaw issues with the wing under stress tests.

And these guys are experts.

Yes it does and arguing otherwise is just hysterics.

Just because Boeing and Airbus have ironed out any problems with previous aircraft doesn't mean there aren't still any defects in those aircraft as we found out in recent years with the nose gear problem on the A320, the pitot tubes used by the A330, and more recently the engine problems associated with the A380. Additionally, ironing out problems on previous aircraft doesn't mean there won't be design defects on new aircraft.

As someone else said, Airbus weren't always the world's largest aircraft manufacturer, they had to start somewhere to get to that point. Likewise look at Embraer, only in recent years have they become a market leader in small-medium sized jets and no one here would think twice about flying on one.

mayotom

its on the Ryanair website now too.

I think its a good move I would have no problem with the aircraft, take a look at the specs its virtually the same as Airbus/boeing, same avionics, same engines, same everything just manufactured to a high standard in China

kirving

I wouldn't go near them. It doesn't matter who they've stolen their designs from, or if it's certified by the EU, or even if it uses lots of the same equipment.

Take the iPhone for example, produced in China for a western company, and is of extremely high build quality. Now someone might buy a knock off that has all the same parts, looks the same, uses the same technology and is put together 5 minutes down the road by a Chinese manufacturer. Which would you rather have?

Boeing and Airbus have been around a long time and know what they're doing, I wouldn't trust COMAC until they have a proven track record. I know they have to build up that record somehow, but an awful lot of crap comes out of China so its difficult to trust them to be honest. Have a look at a few chinese car crash safety tests. :eek:

I know phones and cars aren't aircraft, but it's difficult to have faith in an unproven Chinese company.

SteelyDanJalapeno

How much would it cost me to pick one of these up?

Wats_in_a_name

Take the iPhone for example, produced in China for a western company, and is of extremely high build quality. Now someone might buy a knock off that has all the same parts, looks the same, uses the same technology and is put together 5 minutes down the road by a Chinese manufacturer. Which would you rather have?

There is one major flow in that logic. You're comparing an iPhone a polished consumer good to a cheap 1/50th of the price consumer device made to no particular specifications. COMAC is not out to design aircraft that cost 1/50th of the price of boeings.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

macman2010

leaving the technical argument aside and speaking from a commercial perspective, Ryanair would be nuts to begin to fly Chinese manufactured aircraft. The general consensus from westerners is that items manufactured in China are cheap knock offs and this opinion would not change regardless of endless testing and certification.
I dont feel comfortable on a ryanair flight but i do feel safe, if that were to change they wont be getting my business.
I for one would rather pay an extra €50 or whatever for piece of mind.

Its just a bargaining tool for MOL against Boeing, i doubt if boeing are to concerned anyhow.

kirving

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Plenty more where that came from! Too bad they can't replicated it's NCAP rating quite so easily, which I think is indicitave of their attitude in general towards safety. However, aircraft design is a whole different ball game.

Reminds me of something I head about the Russins copying a Boeing B-29 years ago. One landed in Russia for some reason, so they reverse-engineered it. After making moulds for the parts from the originals, the Russian TU-4 even had a Boeing logo on it's rudder pedals!


As for the iPhone comparinson, what I mean is that the Chinese "hiPhone" or whatever it's called has much the same tech as the real thing. It meets the exact same regulations. Even though it's cheaper, it should be fine since the specs are the same. Would I wan't to rely on one? No, becasue I just don't know that it will last.

IngazZagni

It's a very smart deal to get involved in. It gives them inside info of the goings on at Comac and with Ryanair in a position to place a massive 200+ order they could directly influence the specs of the C919 or future aircraft. So Ryanair may not end up ordering the C919 but who knows about the following generation. The C929 or whatever it would be called could be a big competitor. I say that based on a successful launch of the C919 and subsequent few years without incident. Companies like this need to plan years in advance and this is just part of that.

Ratzo Rizzo

10-10-20 wrote: »

Oh dear - I just found this in Wikipedia... "Chinese aerospace manufacturer established on May 11, 2008 in Shanghai, China" They are 3 years old so their wealth of experience in making safe aircraft comes from what resource exactly?

They've been licence building McDonnell Douglas MD-80's for years...

Jim236

macman2010 wrote: »

leaving the technical argument aside and speaking from a commercial perspective, Ryanair would be nuts to begin to fly Chinese manufactured aircraft. The general consensus from westerners is that items manufactured in China are cheap knock offs and this opinion would not change regardless of endless testing and certification.
I dont feel comfortable on a ryanair flight but i do feel safe, if that were to change they wont be getting my business.
I for one would rather pay an extra €50 or whatever for piece of mind.

Its just a bargaining tool for MOL against Boeing, i doubt if boeing are to concerned anyhow.

You say that but would you actually be able to talk about the technical specs of each aircraft and compare them?

If not, then how would you know whether to feel safe or not?

iPlop

Ratzo Rizzo wrote: »

They've been licence building McDonnell Douglas MD-80's for years...

No they haven't, they hammered out a deal with McDD for 40 aircraft called the MD-80T built for exclusive licence in the Asian market, manufactured in Shanghai.Components were manufactured in the USA and Canada ,then assembled in China which brought the cost down to $30 million dollars each.

There was options to build 130 or more but I don't know if they did or not? ,and they didn't design them ,they essentially got the parts and assembled them on Chinese soil, like the Delorean was in the north.

AngryLips

Questions about safety are way too premature and smack of pure ignorance with a hint of racism IMO. Airbus and Boeing themselves are so far from coming with an unblemished safety record it should be noted ...for those of us with selective memories. And, if history is anything to go by, 15 to 20 years from now the only aircraft we can expect to fly will all be designed and manufactured in the east.

dell1211

macman2010 wrote: »

Its just a bargaining tool for MOL against Boeing, i doubt if boeing are to concerned anyhow.

Id say that they are. Look at the orders at Le Bourget, most were from asian airlines which is really the only growth area in world aviation at the moment, these asian airlines see a top european airline joining up with a manufacturer from their region while they are paying top dollar for planes from airbus and boeing.

However what damage this will do to ryanair is a different story. Boeing would do well to get another huge order of ryanair for the 737-800 that will guarantee its production for the next 10years as its currently being hammered by airbus due to its design being unable to take the new efficient engines that the a320 can take, and the only way to fix it is a redesign of the plane.

Tea 1000

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Just because it's certified doesn't mean it's safe, think of all the certified aircraft over the years that had design flaws and crashed.Boeing have ironed out a lot of problems over the years to get to where they are now, and even now the 787 is suffering design flaw issues with the wing under stress tests.

And these guys are experts.

Comac can learn from the same lessons that Boeing and Airbus have learned from in the same way that Boeing themselves have learned in the past with the 707 from the mistakes that DeHavilland made with the Mk 1 Comet. You don't have to make the mistake yourself to learn from it.

Turbulent Bill

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Comac can learn from the same lessons that Boeing and Airbus have learned from in the same way that Boeing themselves have learned in the past with the 707 from the mistakes that DeHavilland made with the Mk 1 Comet. You don't have to make the mistake yourself to learn from it.

Correct, and building a 737/A320-sized plane these days isn't rocket science. Comac won't be hamstrung with a 40+ year-old design like the 737, and even the A320 is getting on a bit. You can buy in design and quality expertise to complement the lower-cost manufacturing.

However I think this is just a clever marketing ploy by both Comac and Ryanair. The Boeing/Airbus duopoly get squeezed on pricing by Ryanair, while Comac will get cheap licencing of 737 manufacturing (for example) or a joint development down the line.

dell1211

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

However I think this is just a clever marketing ploy by both Comac and Ryanair. The Boeing/Airbus duopoly get squeezed on pricing by Ryanair, while Comac will get cheap licencing of 737 manufacturing (for example) or a joint development down the line.

BA have also signed a similar agreement with Comac

Run_to_da_hills

What about a Ryanair Russian deal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MS-21

Tenger

dell1211 wrote: »

....Boeing would do well to get another huge order of ryanair for the 737-800 that will guarantee its production for the next 10years as its currently being hammered by airbus due to its design being unable to take the new efficient engines that the a320 can take, and the only way to fix it is a redesign of the plane.

The FR/COMAC 'deal' (which costs them no cash!!!) will show Boeing that current B737NG customers will not wait around. They will move to the A320NEO or the new designs. This forces Boeing to seriously look at a B737NG NEO option or the rumoured B797 newbuild.

As it is Boeing currently have a 4 year order book for the B737NG. So they can promise something now but then have to deliver in 4-5 years.

A point that some people may miss is that the B737 is basically a 40+ year old design while the A320 is 25+ years old. The B737 is already well into its 2nd generation (B737 Next Gen) while the NEO (New Engine Option) option for the A320 is its 2nd Gen. The B737 design may well have been improved to its furthest extent.

So for COMAC to develop a comparable aircraft is not a huge stretch of the imagination. 15 years ago who would have thought that a Brazilian manufacturer could have developed the very succesful E170/190 family of small regional jets? (E170 announced 1999 Paris Airshow, 671 units sold as of Sep 2010)