Money spent on itinerants (travellers).

13spanner

Firstly I wan't sure where to put this, so I'm very sorry if it is in the wrong category.

About 5 years ago, a few miles over the road from where I live, a halting site was erected for itinerants. Street lights, tarmac, toilets, fencing, electricity, the whole lot. They moved in (maybe 5-6 families) and the place was a wreck within months. In 2009, 12 new houses were built beside the halting site. Fine houses, a bit on the small side maybe but lovely stonework, painted up and all. So the few families moved into the houses, leaving the halting site in a state after them. Burned out cars and caravans, waste all over the place. Now the council are taking up the tarmac, fencing, streetlights with a digger and drawing away the waste with a dumptrailer.

I just think it's incredible that we're paying tax money to house them, and after they wreck the place, we're paying to clean it up again! Surely the money spent here could be put to better use?

Statistician

Are you blaming the government and its policies for this, or the travellers?

13spanner

Statistician wrote: »

Are you blaming the government and its policies for this, or the travellers?

I just don't know to be honest alot of money is being spent between housing them and social welfare, and with all due respect, they don't seem to be making any attempt to contribute anything in return. I don't mean to be kicking up dust, but I think something needs to change.

Muckie

Mother in law happens to live beside some Travellers.

She had a meeting with the PRTB today.

The Traveller family brought a representive from Pavee Point,

why i dont know.

This Traveller faimly havin been making here life hell for the last few months.

Cars parked all over the road, blocking her driveway. shouting abuse at her, passing comments as she walks towards her door.

Filling bins living them on the road for days, kids running while shouting abuse, throwin litter on the road.

Gardai have been involved, even arrive once near mid-night to arrest the Traveller women who were in a Stolen Norther VW Golf. The men hid inside the house, shouted out the window "their pregnant!"

I don't think its the case with all Traveller families just most of them.

Seems rules that apply to settled people in normal society don't apply to them.

corktina

theres badness in all sectors of society ..some of them wear suits and ties whilst they rob us.

i dont see what can be done about amoral people like this

Muckie

corktina wrote: »

theres scum in all sectors of society ..some of them wear suits and ties whilst they rob us.

i dont see what can be done about amoral people like this

Thats very true, but it'd be great if the Authories could impose some sort of santion against them, try and get them to behave.(as hard as i know that could be)

Because as neighbours go, its hell. Oh she has Roma gypsies the other side of her, but thats a story for another day

L1011

Muckie wrote: »

The Traveller family brought a representive from Pavee Point,

why i dont know.

Because, from non-direct experience, Pavee Point's attitude is that travellers are incapable of doing any wrong. Even when caught red handed.

Amtmann

Moved from Infrastructure as this seems more a political issue tbh.

Wolfe Tone

OP it may please you to hear that traveler education support has been cut.

RMD

I've always held the opinion that if a person doesn't contribute anything to the country, they don't deserve any help from it (Ie the government).

If they wish to pay taxes and be contributing members of society provide the facilities to let them live normally and do so. If they wish to have everything handed to them for free so they can ruin it, tell them to fúck off. This isn't just a point about travelers, it goes for all members of society IMO.

Wolfe Tone

RMD wrote: »

I've always held the opinion that if a person doesn't contribute anything to the country, they don't deserve any help from it (Ie the government).

If they wish to pay taxes and be contributing members of society provide the facilities to let them live normally and do so. If they wish to have everything handed to them for free so they can ruin it, tell them to fúck off. This isn't just a point about travelers, it goes for all members of society IMO.

"Live normally"?


I.e "stop being travellers"?

RMD

Nope, they can continue to be travelers for the rest of eternity if they wish, but to be contributing members of society at the same time.

irishh_bob

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

OP it may please you to hear that traveler education support has been cut.

how is traveller education support distinctive from education support , generally speaking ? , do travellers not attend the same schools as settled kids

mikemac

Much the same happened in Roscrea. Small little estate of 13 houses set aside for the itinerants, houses were trashed within months

Last I heard they all moved on and the houses were reallocated to people on the waiting list, there is a lot of council housing in Roscrea

I do not know the solution. There's a small group of itinerants in Nenagh down the road and there is never trouble and they have housing and room in the driveways or at the side of the house for their caravans. They seem happy there.

So what what went wrong in Roscrea? I don't know anyway
Possibly the council moved feuding families into the estate in Roscrea, just throwing it out there as a possibility.
For a small community, so many feuds going on

AlekSmart

Muckie wrote: »

Mother in law happens to live beside some Travellers.

She had a meeting with the PRTB today.

The Traveller family brought a representive from Pavee Point,

why i dont know.

Possibly because at this stage Pavee Point has become the dei-facto Voice-of-The-Traveller and more particularly has developed a comprehensive understanding of how the "Equality and Anti-Discrimination" laws work.

These atributes can be very useful when it comes to proving such things and more importantly when it comes to seeking "Compensation" for such occurences.

Nijmegen

The traveler issue is, has been, and perhaps ever shall be an emotive issue.

I, like many people, have negative experiences when coming into contact with travelers at various stages in my life.

How and ever, this thread concerns the cost to the state of travelers.

Firstly, let me state that I believe that travelers - like any other group low on the socio-economic ladder - are entitled to the same wealth transfer efforts that the government makes for anyone else. I may believe the government could far more efficient and do it differently, but if we agree that a disadvantaged child from a settled family should receive a helping hand then we must not exclude a traveler child, or person.

The welfare state always transfers wealth from one group to another, taking a net tax contribution from those who can pay and spending it in social benefits and so forth. If you want to end this for travelers, or modify it, you must modify it for all.

The last figures I can find are concerning 2009 and show €130m spent on projects for travelers, aside from social welfare payments and so forth. At an estimated 30,000 travelers, that's just over €4,300 a head.

The Limerick regeneration effort will cost the state an estimated €1.8bn, though it could be more if private funds don't meet the rest of the €3.6bn cost.

The population of the regeneration areas (Moyross, Southill, Ballinacurra Weston and St Mary's Park) is some 10,000 people, or €180,000 a head to the state, over nine years. So €20,000 a head a year.

At the end of the day, travelers are just one group who receive state funding and wealth transfer. If we began choosing entire groups based simply on who they are - let's say, no Limerick regeneration because, you know, crime is a big issue there and they're only trouble to the rest of us - that is a bad slide.

Of course, you could cut benefits and funds aimed at individuals who commit crimes. But that's a separate issue for social welfare, again applied fairly to all.

Kess73

Nijmegen wrote: »

The traveler issue is, has been, and perhaps ever shall be an emotive issue.

I, like many people, have negative experiences when coming into contact with travelers at various stages in my life.

How and ever, this thread concerns the cost to the state of travelers.

Firstly, let me state that I believe that travelers - like any other group low on the socio-economic ladder - are entitled to the same wealth transfer efforts that the government makes for anyone else. I may believe the government could far more efficient and do it differently, but if we agree that a disadvantaged child from a settled family should receive a helping hand then we must not exclude a traveler child, or person.

The welfare state always transfers wealth from one group to another, taking a net tax contribution from those who can pay and spending it in social benefits and so forth. If you want to end this for travelers, or modify it, you must modify it for all.

The last figures I can find are concerning 2009 and show €130m spent on projects for travelers, aside from social welfare payments and so forth. At an estimated 30,000 travelers, that's just over €4,300 a head.

The Limerick regeneration effort will cost the state an estimated €1.8bn, though it could be more if private funds don't meet the rest of the €3.6bn cost.

The population of the regeneration areas (Moyross, Southill, Ballinacurra Weston and St Mary's Park) is some 10,000 people, or €180,000 a head to the state, over nine years. So €20,000 a head a year.
At the end of the day, travelers are just one group who receive state funding and wealth transfer. If we began choosing entire groups based simply on who they are - let's say, no Limerick regeneration because, you know, crime is a big issue there and they're only trouble to the rest of us - that is a bad slide.

Of course, you could cut benefits and funds aimed at individuals who commit crimes. But that's a separate issue for social welfare, again applied fairly to all.

The Limerick regeneration plan is not a valid comparison as it has stalled badly and was meant to see the demolition of some 3,000 houses along with the rebuilding of the same number when it was announced in 2007.

Also your 1.8 billion is incorrect as the governemnt last year downsized that to €934 million.

Then there was an announcement for €337 million for new housing, community facilities and road infrastructure in the Moyross, St Mary’s Park, Ballinacurra Weston and Southill housing estates

Then this year the budget for the year was brought down further to €34m for the year.

To date over 300 house have been knocked, and in their places is the ruins.

Then earlier year there were talks to try and get a massive 34, yes 34, new houses rebuilt if funds could be raised for 34 houses.

It was knocked back as the funding was unavailabe as the aforemention €35m was not there anymore.


So at present some 900 families have been moved out of their homes in the first three or so years of the regeneration plan. No new houses are built, no new infrastructure has been built and just over 10% of the houses to be knocked have been knocked.

2017 was to be the year the regeneration project finished. Three years in and no houses have being built and it is being reported as being two and a half years behind schedule after three years.

Somehow I think this project will never get done, and it won't cost the revised much lower published cost figure, let alone the €1.8 billion you mentioned.

The last government were quick to stand in front of TV cameras and blather on about that €1.8 billion figure back in 2007, but they were not so quick to do the same when they slashed it dramatically year on year.

So the people in the areas you mention are not costing the stat €20,000 a head per year for the duration of the project and even if the project does get finished they will still cost the state nowhere near that figure per head as the revised budget is much smaller and no doubt it will shrink again.

Bens

irishh_bob wrote: »

how is traveller education support distinctive from education support , generally speaking ? , do travellers not attend the same schools as settled kids

From my friend who is a principal in a school in Dublin.
Travellers are registered in the schools, but do not attend. Just before communion, so they can make their communion is the top attendance period for travellers. Other than that it would be unusual for them to be in school more than 2 days a month. Most of the support goes to getting them into school. Teaching them is impossible.

Nijmegen

Hey Kess73,


That's a fair point re: Limerick Regeneration, and in our fast moving world of austerity we can miss these things. Traveler supports are also being cut, of course.

I suppose you could take it as an example of government projects envisioned - of which many have been carried out and many others are still ongoing within our €50bn a year of spending - where heavy spending is allocated to particular groups.

My point is more that travelers, as a group, are no less deserving of attention than any other anywhere else if we, as a state, decide that wealth should be transferred from the wealthy to the poor through tax and spend.

The provision of special needs assistance in schools is to be justified the same way as support for a traveler child. Both children are born with difficulties that are not of their making.

As I said above, this does not account for the malignant elements within traveler - or any other - society who should, as much as possible, be excluded from receiving beneficial state funds, such as social welfare payments if they refuse to obey the law.

dermo88

Fortunately this afternoon I am in logical mode, not somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun and unlikely to spout some right wing diatribe 100 meters to the right of Hermann Goering and Attila the Hun.......and get banned for pissing off the moderators.

The emphasis has to be on changing a mentality. Its down to peer pressure within their own community on one hand and a culture of dependency on the other.

The emphasis has to be on the education side. Unfortunately, children being children will bully those who are marginalised or different.

Breaking the cycle of poverty, crime, dependency and more takes generations. Some escape unfortunately the majority do not.

With rights come responsibilities. There needs to be a sense of empowerment for a citizen to feel like a citizen, traveller or not. That means conducting yourself in the best manner possible.

Unfortunately, with the Travelling community they continue to be marginalised for a whole myriad of reasons. There needs to be a focus on the skills that Travellers have done best which involve engineering, repairs, trade, construction, particularly on the small business side of the equation.

I don't know how to solve that on the macro (overall) side of the scale. Benefits for adults MUST be tied in with school attendance for their children and their performance at school. Thats how the cycle of dependency and criminal activity is broken. Consider.....20,000 Euro spent on a childs education in 2011 will save the child and the state 100,000's later on in terms of their becoming a responsible citizen.

That may mean getting them into much smaller class sizes with a pupil teacher ratio of 10/1 or thereabouts. It has to be viewed as a long term change in mentality. Everyone will benefit, and travellers will be integrated eventually as a result. But the change and the willingness to change must also be in the hearts of the travelling community itself.

I did have negative experiences with travellers before. But I won't tar them all with the same brush anymore. Its just a case that there are a higher proportion involved with anti-social activities because they do not know any better, and are mislead by the bad example of their peers.

beagle001

Traveler kids are a disaster when it comes to education,there is no pressure put on them from their parents to attend or even contirbute in school.
Majority of special need teachers time is taken up with traveler kids,if they do attend they have no books or pencils are disruptive and a major distraction to other kids who want to learn.
My brother is a specials needs teacher in a large school,he is at his wits end with the traveler kids,all the help is provided for them but they just throw it back without a care in the world,if one of the kids actually tries to learn the other traveler kids slag him and encourage him to quit,viciuos cycle.
On another note in the UK travelers who refuse to live in settled housing are not entitled to claim social welfare hence why most of them actually work in the UK,its an awful pity we do not do that here just eliminate all social payments to any travelers who refuse to live in settled housing and abide by normal living standards.
Ireland is too soft on all these groups and its not likely to change anytime soon which is a real shame.

born2bwild

Bens wrote: »

From my friend who is a principal in a school in Dublin.
Travellers are registered in the schools, but do not attend. Just before communion, so they can make their communion is the top attendance period for travellers. Other than that it would be unusual for them to be in school more than 2 days a month. Most of the support goes to getting them into school. Teaching them is impossible.

I have to echo your point. I'm a post primary school teacher and, by and large, Traveller kids are more or less unteachable.

Mostly, they rarely attend school and are highly disruptive.

There are exceptions: in some cases there are wonderfully polite and intelligent kids from Traveller backgrounds although their levels of academic performance are, with a single exception in my own experience over 7 years, appalling.

A typical outcome is 1 or 2 years' Post Primary experience with maybe 20% attendance and that's that.

After this how can they possibly be productive members of society???

Still, they are citizens and are entitled to financial support from this state.

You may not like this last fact but there is no alternative.

Nijmegen

It seems the onus is on the state to find a better way to address the traveler problem.

This on the basis that we are not, as a society, prepared to abandon any particular groups and start down that slippy slope.

Take generic troublesome, disadvantaged group A. You can, as a society, either ignore them - at which point they continue to be a pain, and may grow in size as a pain as they become more marginalised - you can educate them, and hope they become productive members of society... Or you can exterminate them, I suppose.

You vote for travelers, the next guy votes for people from Limerick regen areas, eventually we're working over the disabled kids.

I think the only option is getting tougher with the love.

Dannyboy83

corktina wrote: »

theres badness in all sectors of society ..some of them wear suits and ties whilst they rob us.

i dont see what can be done about amoral people like this

Lots can be done about this.
Just because people in suits rob you, doesn't mean you should throw your hands in the air and let other sections of society run riot too.

In many of the cases I've seen, it boils down to simple fear on the part of the local Garda. They have families too, they don't want the hassle.
I can understand this, but it simply rewards these people by confirming to them, that if they are aggressive and intimidating enough, they will get away with it.

If we wanted to really tackle the traveller crime problem, we'd need a group similar to the one set up by Elliot Ness. It wouldn't eliminate the low level crime they are so famous for, but it could quickly put a serious dent in the drug trade in Ireland, which would eliminate a huge source of income for them, and force them to adjust their behaviour substantially.

When Shane Geoghegan was murdered, they had already been promising to bring in an equivalent to the RICO statutes for years. Now it's as good as forgotten.

Nijmegen wrote: »

My point is more that travelers, as a group, are no less deserving of attention than any other anywhere else if we, as a state, decide that wealth should be transferred from the wealthy to the poor through tax and spend.

While I agree with the point you're making, I think it's important that they should be subject to the same laws and expectations as the rest of us (having worked the doors in Cork for 6/7 years and having nearly had my life ended by a traveller who I'd never even met before, I can tell you with confidence that they're not, but I digress).

I think people are missing the OP's point.
These people were given a chance, and didn't give a damn.
In their specific example, they should be struck off the Welfare list.
It would at least send a clear message to other groups.
There is way too much carrot and not enough stick.

One of my former colleagues working in Clover Hill is ridiculed as matter of routine by travellers for his low income. Some of the money these groups are making in the drug trade, would make an entire year worth of social welfare seem like pocket money.
But this comes back to other points you've made before, which I agree with, about tackling social welfare fraud.

p.s Open to correction, but I think the majority of people living in the Limerick areas you've mentioned are settled travelers anyway.

Dannyboy83

beagle001 wrote: »

On another note in the UK travelers who refuse to live in settled housing are not entitled to claim social welfare hence why most of them actually work in the UK

According to an acquaintance in the DVLA, they avoid VRT as a matter of routine, but it's largely just accepted that they're travellers and they're simply not going to pay it.

irishh_bob

dermo88 wrote: »

Fortunately this afternoon I am in logical mode, not somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun and unlikely to spout some right wing diatribe 100 meters to the right of Hermann Goering and Attila the Hun.......and get banned for pissing off the moderators.

The emphasis has to be on changing a mentality. Its down to peer pressure within their own community on one hand and a culture of dependency on the other.

The emphasis has to be on the education side. Unfortunately, children being children will bully those who are marginalised or different.

Breaking the cycle of poverty, crime, dependency and more takes generations. Some escape unfortunately the majority do not.

With rights come responsibilities. There needs to be a sense of empowerment for a citizen to feel like a citizen, traveller or not. That means conducting yourself in the best manner possible.

Unfortunately, with the Travelling community they continue to be marginalised for a whole myriad of reasons. There needs to be a focus on the skills that Travellers have done best which involve engineering, repairs, trade, construction, particularly on the small business side of the equation.

I don't know how to solve that on the macro (overall) side of the scale. Benefits for adults MUST be tied in with school attendance for their children and their performance at school. Thats how the cycle of dependency and criminal activity is broken. Consider.....20,000 Euro spent on a childs education in 2011 will save the child and the state 100,000's later on in terms of their becoming a responsible citizen.

That may mean getting them into much smaller class sizes with a pupil teacher ratio of 10/1 or thereabouts. It has to be viewed as a long term change in mentality. Everyone will benefit, and travellers will be integrated eventually as a result. But the change and the willingness to change must also be in the hearts of the travelling community itself.

I did have negative experiences with travellers before. But I won't tar them all with the same brush anymore. Its just a case that there are a higher proportion involved with anti-social activities because they do not know any better, and are mislead by the bad example of their peers.

its difficult to change the traveller mentality which presently exists ( persecution complex etc ) when the likes of pavee point with the backing of the equality authority and idiots like vincent browne are making excuses for crime and dysfunctionality within the traveller community and blaming all thier ills on the settled community , seeing as something like 90 % of tinkers are in receipt of social wellfare and 12 % of them are in prison , i think the tax payer is entitled to ask the question , wheres the beef

bonzos

I really have to laugh when I hear all this BS about the crackdown on "nixers" etc...this is about clamping down on unemployed people doing bit of work here and there for cash(which is wrong I know!).Yet still in my home town (Sligo) almost every traveller in the town is driving a new Van or Jeep...some have even decided to treat themselves to new 2011 5 series BMW's!None of these people have ever worked a day in their lives and many of them are in court on a regular basis for serious crime yet still get free legal aid.So as I see it (correct me if im wrong) these people are 100% funded by the taxpayer and yet still have all the trappings of wealth with no questions asked.We the ordinary law abiding people deserve that OUR money be spent on those who need it the most and not on wealthy criminals!......Last weekend the father of a well known traveller family died in Sligo,this resulted in almost all of the pubs and bars in local villages closing out of FEAR that their property and businesses would be ruined by the gangs of travellers who flooded into the area for the funeral.Ironically these business who provide jobs and pay their taxes all fund the people who forced them to close their businesses!!!!

end a eknny

why do people insist on calling them travellers instead of what they really are as far I know most of them travel very little unless you call casing houses and farms traveling

man.about.town

im going to be honest, i hate travellers and think there all scum, no exceptions.

thebman

bonzos wrote: »

I really have to laugh when I hear all this BS about the crackdown on "nixers" etc...this is about clamping down on unemployed people doing bit of work here and there for cash(which is wrong I know!).Yet still in my home town (Sligo) almost every traveller in the town is driving a new Van or Jeep...some have even decided to treat themselves to new 2011 5 series BMW's!None of these people have ever worked a day in their lives and many of them are in court on a regular basis for serious crime yet still get free legal aid.So as I see it (correct me if im wrong) these people are 100% funded by the taxpayer and yet still have all the trappings of wealth with no questions asked.We the ordinary law abiding people deserve that OUR money be spent on those who need it the most and not on wealthy criminals!......Last weekend the father of a well known traveller family died in Sligo,this resulted in almost all of the pubs and bars in local villages closing out of FEAR that their property and businesses would be ruined by the gangs of travellers who flooded into the area for the funeral.Ironically these business who provide jobs and pay their taxes all fund the people who forced them to close their businesses!!!!

Isn't this the sort of carry on that CAB was created for?

Unexplained assets. Is a BMW 5 series not an unexplainable asset for someone on social welfare.

If not I must sign up :pac:

Seriously thought, I'm sure there are good traveling families out there but until they out the criminals or the guards do something about it, there will always be stigma associated with them as there are obviously a disproportionate number of them breaking the law.

AlekSmart

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Lots can be done about this.
Just because people in suits rob you, doesn't mean you should throw your hands in the air and let other sections of society run riot too.

In many of the cases I've seen, it boils down to simple fear on the part of the local Garda. They have families too, they don't want the hassle.
I can understand this, but it simply rewards these people by confirming to them, that if they are aggressive and intimidating enough, they will get away with it.

If we wanted to really tackle the traveller crime problem, we'd need a group similar to the one set up by Elliot Ness. It wouldn't eliminate the low level crime they are so famous for, but it could quickly put a serious dent in the drug trade in Ireland, which would eliminate a huge source of income for them, and force them to adjust their behaviour substantially......

......I think people are missing the OP's point.
These people were given a chance, and didn't give a damn.
In their specific example, they should be struck off the Welfare list.
It would at least send a clear message to other groups.
There is way too much carrot and not enough stick.

One of my former colleagues working in Clover Hill is ridiculed as matter of routine by travellers for his low income. Some of the money these groups are making in the drug trade, would make an entire year worth of social welfare seem like pocket money.
But this comes back to other points you've made before, which I agree with, about tackling social welfare fraud.

DannyBoy83's focus on the nature of the activities which now form a significant element of the Traveller "Crime" statistics is a very pertinent one.

There is the notion still abroad that Travellers main criminal activities centre on housebreaking and stealing generally.

That I fear shows a rather worrying unfamiliarity with just how rapidly the criminal elements of the Travelling community have adapted,modified and modernised their own methods of operation.

The modern young traveller criminal,may well have been an underperformer during his/her patchy schooldays,but that does not mean they failed to learn,because as is being demonstrated daily all over this country and beyond,the young traveller criminal is a highly motivated,cunning,ruthless individual capable of great violence to achieve their ends,and achieving a high level of notoriety,success and wealth with it.

Much of theis remains however,dependant upon their "culture" remaining as something "different",as being outside the influence of the bodies and agencies which regulate,control,reward or punish the greater rump of ordinary society.

Maintaining this "difference"is an important element of the New,Modern,Community-Focused Traveller Representation as it is portrayed as almost part of preserving part of our greater Irishness almost.

For many of those involved,this State could never in a million years offer them a carrot big enough to bring them back to the straight and narrow with it's dreadful impositions of taxes,levies,tolls and tarriffs which now define the lives of the buffers left toiling away in the pits.

However,equally,I just can't see a scenario in modern Ireland which would see this State having the gumption (or the means) to wield a stick big enough to make an impact either.

SupaNova

Nijmegen wrote: »

The traveler issue is, has been, and perhaps ever shall be an emotive issue.

I, like many people, have negative experiences when coming into contact with travelers at various stages in my life.

How and ever, this thread concerns the cost to the state of travelers.

Firstly, let me state that I believe that travelers - like any other group low on the socio-economic ladder - are entitled to the same wealth transfer efforts that the government makes for anyone else. I may believe the government could far more efficient and do it differently, but if we agree that a disadvantaged child from a settled family should receive a helping hand then we must not exclude a traveler child, or person.

The welfare state always transfers wealth from one group to another, taking a net tax contribution from those who can pay and spending it in social benefits and so forth. If you want to end this for travelers, or modify it, you must modify it for all.

Well at least you have stated what it is today, but i thought the welfare state was to provide education and healthcare not to take money from rich and give it to the poor, but to actually provide things for them.

At the end of the day, travelers are just one group who receive state funding and wealth transfer. If we began choosing entire groups based simply on who they are - let's say, no Limerick regeneration because, you know, crime is a big issue there and they're only trouble to the rest of us - that is a bad slide.

Of course, you could cut benefits and funds aimed at individuals who commit crimes. But that's a separate issue for social welfare, again applied fairly to all.

I think what upsets most people is not even the fact that healthcare and education is being provided to travelers with no contribution in return, it is the special resources and extra attention given to accommodate travelers.

Its quite obvious from their actions that the travelers don't want our state education. Its not part of their culture to dream of getting 600 points in their LC attending college gaining a software degree and working for Microsoft. People might call their culture uncivilized because of their disregard for education and their passion for bare knuckle fights. But perhaps they are more civilised than people trying to ram education down the throats of people who don't want it despite what they might say to get some goodies.

jank

I wonder do the revenue commissioners ever audit their activities?
They have huge issues to deal with in their communities but they sure don't help themselves.

bonzos

thebman wrote: »

Isn't this the sort of carry on that CAB was created for?

Unexplained assets. Is a BMW 5 series not an unexplainable asset for someone on social welfare.

If not I must sign up :pac:

Seriously thought, I'm sure there are good traveling families out there but until they out the criminals or the guards do something about it, there will always be stigma associated with them as there are obviously a disproportionate number of them breaking the law.

So the taxpayer is paying the travellers and the taxpayers are paying the guards.....maybe we should stop paying the guards until such time as they start enforcing the law on these people?surely we can pay both?

thebman

bonzos wrote: »

So the taxpayer is paying the travellers and the taxpayers are paying the guards.....maybe we should stop paying the guards until such time as they start enforcing the law on these people?surely we can pay both?

The police need evidence though, not an easy thing to do unless you have the resources to dedicate to constant monitoring of an extremely mobile target.

bonzos

thebman wrote: »

The police need evidence though, not an easy thing to do unless you have the resources to dedicate to constant monitoring of an extremely mobile target.

Evidence???....Excuse me sir,How can you explain owning a new bmw despite being on the dole and you have never worked?the evidence is there they just need to start asking some hard questions

Nijmegen

Well at least you have stated what it is today, but i thought the welfare state was to provide education and healthcare not to take money from rich and give it to the poor, but to actually provide things for them.

What you describe and wealth transfer is the same thing. You're poor, you can't afford an education. The state provides you one. It does so by taxing me. I'm rich, and can afford a private education.

A typical middle class person and above pays more tax than they receive in services from the state. That's wealth distribution.

In relation to your second point, 'they' is an interesting word. Does a traveler child born this morning have aspirations to be a criminal or a hedge fund manager (quiet down the back, that joke is too easy )?

I dunno. Does any kid?

If you are to provide a welfare state to cover one, it must cover the other.

How it does that, and how effectively it does that, is the real issue to me.

As it stands, the state does not prosecute criminal travelers the way it should, to my view, nor is it nearly successful enough in the way it intervenes to ensure that traveler children have as good a chance as anyone else to increase their education, social mobility, etc.

13spanner

Tremelo wrote: »

Moved from Infrastructure as this seems more a political issue tbh.

Thanks for the help mod, was unsure of where to put it myself.

I started the thread because I know people who work alot harder than travellers do, cause much less problems than travellers do, and yet still end up with little or no money at the end of the week. I hate to see travellers sponging off society and getting by quiet comfortably without contributing ANYTHING. They get away with murder around where I live. I wanted to know if anyone else was unhappy with the way the government deals with them.

Cuddlesworth

bonzos wrote: »

Evidence???....Excuse me sir,How can you explain owning a new bmw despite being on the dole and you have never worked?the evidence is there they just need to start asking some hard questions

"I won it on the horses". Worked for others.

elaverty

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

"I won it on the horses". Worked for others.

The difference being the horse Bertie won it on wasnt a stolen one,,

thebman

elaverty wrote: »

The difference being the horse Bertie won it on wasnt a stolen one,,

Prove it :P

Them having a beamer wouldn't be proof they got it illegally.

That is what CAB is for anyway isn't it? I've not really heard of CAB doing a whole lot lately TBH.

Pedro K

thebman wrote: »

The police need evidence though, not an easy thing to do unless you have the resources to dedicate to constant monitoring of an extremely mobile target.

The CAB doesn't need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that assets are the proceeds of crime in order to seize them. It just needs to prove it on the balance of probability. So the onus kind of is on the owner of the asset to prove how they acquired it.

thebman

Pedro K wrote: »

The CAB doesn't need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that assets are the proceeds of crime in order to seize them. It just needs to prove it on the balance of probability. So the onus kind of is on the owner of the asset to prove how they acquired it.

Yes I know that which is why I'm puzzled why they aren't up to much.

The CAB is a special part of the police though so when I say guards or anything like I mean the usual police force and not special wings of it like CAB.

Pedro K

thebman wrote: »

The police need evidence though, not an easy thing to do unless you have the resources to dedicate to constant monitoring of an extremely mobile target.

thebman wrote: »

Yes I know that which is why I'm puzzled why they aren't up to much.

The CAB is a special part of the police though so when I say guards or anything like I mean the usual police force and not special wings of it like CAB.

It puzzles me too. But with regards to the first post of yours I quoted, The police wouldn't need to be constantly monitoring them for CAB to go after them. The only way to hit criminals if you can't seem to jail them is in the pocket.

I guess we can only hope that CAB have already got some of the main players in their sights, as it can be a very slow process.

Given that the nature of this thread is about money spent on travellers, I would be delighted to see the criminal travellers being targeted and made tax compliant by CAB.

anymore

13spanner wrote: »

Firstly I wan't sure where to put this, so I'm very sorry if it is in the wrong category.

About 5 years ago, a few miles over the road from where I live, a halting site was erected for itinerants. Street lights, tarmac, toilets, fencing, electricity, the whole lot. They moved in (maybe 5-6 families) and the place was a wreck within months. In 2009, 12 new houses were built beside the halting site. Fine houses, a bit on the small side maybe but lovely stonework, painted up and all. So the few families moved into the houses, leaving the halting site in a state after them. Burned out cars and caravans, waste all over the place. Now the council are taking up the tarmac, fencing, streetlights with a digger and drawing away the waste with a dumptrailer.

I just think it's incredible that we're paying tax money to house them, and after they wreck the place, we're paying to clean it up again! Surely the money spent here could be put to better use?

I remember the first purpose built Travellers halting site built in Cork in, I think, the seventies. It was on the corner of Model farm Road and Melbourne Road. Within two or three years it was wrecked also - I believe the housing units, or some of them, had actually been used to stable horses - on this last bit I am relying on my memory of reading it in the paper, but I certainly do remember seeing the abandoned units myself.
It may be that it was only a minority of people who abused the facilities provided, but if resources are provided for halting sites and these facilites are being abused regularily, then at some point people will start asking why bother.

SupaNova

In relation to your second point, 'they' is an interesting word. Does a traveler child born this morning have aspirations to be a criminal or a hedge fund manager (quiet down the back, that joke is too easy )?

When i said they, i am referring to travelers in general. They are brought up in a culture that does not regard education highly, they don't seem to want to get a LC or any degree. I can only speculate why. Travelers are a closely nit clannish community, they are not in the business of raising their children in a way that would see them leave their community. Doing the LC, getting a degree and a job with any company would probably see children leave home and live at a distance from their family.

How it does that, and how effectively it does that, is the real issue to me.

In another thread some person mentioned that traveler children completing the LC and entering college were at terrible levels. But is that really the goal to spend millions and waste extra resources to almost force travelers to get a degree, that they probably wont use. It seems the people insistent on giving travelers special attention don't even have a clear goal in mind and don't seem to know why they are failing and yet call for more effort in the area. The most likely reason you cannot get travelers through our education system at similar rates to non travelers is perhaps they just don't want our education beyond the basics. I mean what's the line other than we need more wealth distribution to solve the problem. Next these people will be bribing travelers to finish school and go to college, we already have such bribes to keep some kids in secondary school, and what wonderful results that shows.

anymore

SupaNova wrote: »

When i said they, i am referring to travelers in general. They are brought up in a culture that does not regard education highly, they don't seem to want to get a LC or any degree. I can only speculate why. Travelers are a closely nit clannish community, they are not in the business of raising their children in a way that would see them leave their community. Doing the LC, getting a degree and a job with any company would probably see children leave home and live at a distance from their family.


In another thread some person mentioned that traveler children completing the LC and entering college were at terrible levels. But is that really the goal to spend millions and waste extra resources to almost force travelers to get a degree, that they probably wont use. It seems the people insistent on giving travelers special attention don't even have a clear goal in mind and don't seem to know why they are failing and yet call for more effort in the area. The most likely reason you cannot get travelers to through our education system at similar rates to non travelers is perhaps they just don't want our education beyond the basics. I mean what's the line other than we need more wealth distribution to solve the problem. Next these people will be bribing travelers to finish school and go to college, we already have such bribes to keep some kids in secondary school.

I spent 5 years going to college at night to get a degree. I would happily swop that degree for a qualification in one of the construction trades. Degrees are over rated.

SupaNova

I spent 5 years going to college at night to get a degree. I would happily swop that degree for a qualification in one of the construction trades. Degrees are over rated

Yes they are overrated, and even more overrated for a traveler that will never use one. What's more beneficial to a 15year old kid that doesn't want to stay in school, to start working or to bribe him to finish to get a piece of paper that is of no use to him. I worked with a kid that was being paid to go to school, he had been kicked out of several until he had to go to this school that paid troublesome students in return for attendance. He was actually an ok kid despite being a nightmare in school, yet we have some busy bodies with ideas of forcing every kid through 18 years of education for something that might be worthless to that individual.

angelfire9

There was a thread on this in the Clare Forum a while back (I notice the OP is Clare Based)

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Any opinions on this article from the Champion? What a sad state of affairs:(
http://http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5980:traveller-housing-costs-unsustainable&catid=74:general&Itemid=60

Traveller housing costs 'unsustainable' Written by Dan Danaher THE average cost of maintaining Traveller accommodation group scheme units in Clare is seven times higher than the unit cost of standard local authority accommodation, it emerged this week.
For the current year, Clare County Council has budgeted €910,288 providing maintenance of its standard 1,550 local authority housing units across the county, compared to over €492,019 looking after just 65 Traveller accommodation units..

Link to thread:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71817472#post71817472

Like the OP I live in Clare

I live 3 doors down from a family from the traveller community
Its like living in a halting site
Rubbish all over the place
Kids running riot (including wandering in my front door when ever I forget to lock it)
Nappies thrown in the middle of the road
2 Nasty nippy little dogs that chase anything on 2 or 4 legs in the neighbourhood
7 kids (2 are babies the rest are brats)
3 vehicles outside the door an 07 People Carrier, a 2011 Passat and an 02 Pickup

And they live off social welfare! :mad:

Their dogs are on the street 24/7
They have bitten me (luckily I was wearing leather boots and therefore they broke no skin
The dogs run riot and are not under control which is ILLEGAL
The dog warden will not deal with them as he has was assaulted by another traveller family in Ennis recently and therefore will not even visit the area

The kids are all brats (bar the 2 babies)
They harass the other kids in the neighbourhood (including my 9 year old with name calling (oink oink is particularly annoying for a cop's kid), the cycle their bikes on the road like they own the place, they have dented my car which is parked in my own driveway with their shennanigans
They put red paint on my next door neighbour's front door
The 3 (approx) year old regularly strips off and drops her nappy in the middle of the road
When getting out of the car they will try and get into it to see what you have, when bringing in shopping they will try and pull it off you, if your front door is open or unlocked they waltz right in
This would be bad enough for 1 child but multiplied by 5 its a nightmare
Driving into our cul de sac is a nightmare cos they deliberately run out in front of the car! :mad:

I cannot go outside my front door without being accosted for money or cigarettes
My daughter cannot play outside the front of our house without having her hair pulled or being called names

And before I am accused of racism:
My neighbours are a nightmare
I'd feel the same if they were Lesbians or Librarians, if they were from New York or Nigeria if they were decent people I'd welcome them to the neighbourhood but they aren't and that's the bottom line!

My husband is a Garda and he can't do anything because:
A) The kids are under the age of criminal responsibility
We like the windows in our house intact and un-egged!

Catch 22!

anymore

SupaNova wrote: »

Yes they are overrated, and even more overrated for a traveler that will never use one. What's more beneficial to a 15year old kid that doesn't want to stay in school, to start working or to bribe him to finish to get a piece of paper that is of no use to him. I worked with a kid that was being paid to go to school, he had been kicked out of several until he had to go to this school that paid troublesome students in return for attendance. He was actually an ok kid despite being a nightmare in school, yet we have some busy bodies with ideas of forcing every kid through 18 years of education for something that might be worthless to that individual.

Most of the time I was in college, I was earning a living doing labouring jobs, so the idea of paying kids to be in school appalls me. Now I feel if kids or more importantly their parents, dont value an eduaction, then to hell with them. I have resigned from my former position as touchy feely liberal.

Nijmegen

angelfire9, I feel for you. As I say, I've had negative experiences with travelers and genuinely feel that a signifigant portion of the traveling community are bad news.

However, if the state is a welfare state then it cannot exclude any group from that net. No matter how much we all feel it is undeserving.

What the state needs to do is grow a pair with regards to policing travelers.