VAG are really taking the p1ss this time...

maidhc

I know Adblue has been in trucks for a while, but when did it become commonplace for cars to get it?

E.g:
http://www.audi.co.uk/new-cars/q7/q7/engines.html

Do all the various BlueEFFICIENCY and Bluemotion cars have adblue?

Has anyone here got their car's urine topped up?

darragh o meara

I'm not sure if the cars are using adblue but it's a very similar fluid. Peugeots use Eloysis which is similar stuff.

It's been in cars for a few years now, most of the cars with diesel particle filters have it. In cars though a tank lasts a good while so refilling isn't a weekly occurrence. I'm fairly sure that all the bluemotions have this. It came in as part of the euro 4 standard engines.

maidhc

darragh o meara wrote: »

I'm not sure if the cars are using adblue but it's a very similar fluid. Peugeots use Eloysis which is similar stuff.

Are you sure? I thought that fluid was only to do with the DPF, while adblue is to reduce Nox?

ofcork

Mercedes are using it in certain models as well,normally topped up at service times.

Eric Cartman

in the ford f-250 it uses so much of it that it gets its own gauge and theres a filler for it beside the fuel filler

dont know how much the audi will use , hopefully it becomes just a service change fluid, but you know audi dealers will rape people on it

Devilfish698

Yeah vw are using it in the new crafter and some passats will have it soon

-Corkie-

All it is made of is water and urea. Allthough its expensive I often thought of making it. You can water it down as well to make it last longer.

Most truckers have it bypassed.

Row

The Eloys 176 which Peugeot/Citroen have is used to reduce the burning temp of the sooth burning off in the dpf.
So many people have asked the question could they use adblue instead of eloys the answer is NO because its like adding water/P1ss into your diesel tank...:eek:
The adblue is added after the dpf to reduce the Nox gases.

I'm afraid all these low emission reducing controls reduce the hole in the Ozone layer but put a bigger hole in the customers pocket...:mad:

Adblue explained....

http://youtu.be/bgusjGRP3XQ

n97 mini

-Corkie- wrote: »

Most truckers have it bypassed.

Like smokeless coal, Adblue is there for a reason: so the emissions won't be killing (as many) people.

Doesn't surprise me tho. A few of my neighbours (one of whom is a member of the Prison Service and should know better) pride themselves on burning the "good stuff" in spite of it being a smokeless area. Meanwhile their kids are all going around with ventolin inhalers...

n97 mini

Row wrote: »

I'm afraid all these low emission reducing controls reduce the hole in the Ozone layer but put a bigger hole in the customers pocket...:mad:

They're nothing to do with reducing the hole in the ozone layer, they're to do with reducing the holes in people's lungs.

Row

n97 mini wrote: »

They're nothing to do with reducing the hole in the ozone layer, they're to do with reducing the holes in people's lungs.

I have an uncle in law who smoked 60 cigarettes per day for nearly 70 years and 40 of that 70 years were on one lung...:eek:
(He lost the lung due to Pneumonia)
He stopped smoking at the age of 82... he's now turned 86 years and is
in great shape....:)

Going back to dpf's and adblue...there here to stay whether we like it or
not...;)

Leonard Hofstadter

Not all trucks use AdBlue - Scania prefers the ad nothing approach and has managed to get as far as Euro 5 without using it.

SCR is coming to cars for Euro 6 and it is yet another expense for diesel engines, and another thing to go wrong.

It is also estimated that the new generation Euro 6 diesels will be about 1,000-1,500 more expensive than the Euro 5 models, and of course Euro 6 engines are less fuel efficient than Euro 5 - so not only will the newer generation diesels more expensive and less economical than hitherto - but they will be even more complex as well and more expensive to run - AdBlue ain't cheap, especially as car manufacturers plan on it being a service item which means you'll have to pay main dealer prices at the start anyway.

Of course once of the problems with AdBlue is that AdBlue consumption is proportional to fuel consumption - and since you don't need it for an engine to work because it is a treatment applied after combustion has taken place it is very easy for a supposedly Euro 6 car to run around as a Euro 4 or a Euro 5.

EGR is a better technology as it gets around this and is less complex - I mean EGR has been around for donkey's years.

Eric Cartman

so what actually happens if you dont add the fluid ? does the car run just fine and flash warnign lights at you ?

do you void your warranty ?

or will some vehicles refuse to start ?

n97 mini

Row wrote: »

I have an uncle in law who smoked 60 cigarettes per day for nearly 70 years and 40 of that 70 years were on one lung...:eek:
(He lost the lung due to Pneumonia)
He stopped smoking at the age of 82... he's now turned 86 years and is
in great shape....:)

Going back to dpf's and adblue...there here to stay whether we like it or
not...;)

He's very lucky. Current ad campaign states that one in two smokers will die a horrible death from a smoking related disease, probably lung cancer.

bladebrew

n97 mini wrote: »

He's very lucky. Current ad campaign states that one in two smokers will die a horrible death from a smoking related disease, probably lung cancer.

im a smoker, there may be an invisible and odourless gas seeping through my foundations giving me lung cancer aswell:) its 50:50 thats not lucky, winning the lotto is lucky

back on topic, wasnt ad blue a big disaster with trucks, a lot of trucks for sale have "no ad blue" in the ad,

Leonard Hofstadter

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so what actually happens if you dont add the fluid ? does the car run just fine and flash warnign lights at you ?

do you void your warranty ?

or will some vehicles refuse to start ?

In theory a car designed to run with AdBlue will run fine without it as AdBlue is applied to the exhaust gases and converts the pollutants into less harmful substances, however it would not surprise me if car manufacturers got a little "creative" and programmed the ECUs so that the car run in limp home mode unless there was AdBlue.

Trucks will run without AdBlue no problem - just a warning light comes up on the dash. If it wasn't for the SCR technology and AdBlue, the engine would basically meet Euro 3 emissions - SCR allows the "engine" to become Euro 4 or Euro 5.

Also, as the emission standards advance the AdBlue consumption increases - to meet Euro 4 a Volvo truck uses 4.5 litres of AdBlue for every 100 litres of diesel consumption (so AdBlue is consumed at 4.5% of the rate diesel is consumed) whereas to meet Euro 5 the same engine uses 7 litres of AdBlue for every 100 litres of diesel consumed. This is a big advantage in one respect, as it means that you don't need to design a new range of engines because tougher emission standards are being introduced.

Some really great engines over the years have been withdrawn because they couldn't meet the next emissions standard - Mazda's Renesis engine couldn't meet Euro 5 so that killed off the RX-8, the Civic Type-R is not sold in Europe any more because the i-VTEC engine does not meet Euro 5 (the CTR is still sold elsewhere). Another great engine that Euro emissions rules killed off is the S54 BMW engine in the E46 M3 and the last Z4M.

If say there was an aftertreatment similar to AdBlue for petrol engines available, all you'd have to do is increase the dosage required and then all of these iconic engines would still be allowed on sale today.

That is the big advantage of SCR and AdBlue pver EGR - and that is why it's being used in trucks and buses, and of course cars are starting to use it now as well.

If you run empty on AdBlue, then you're basically running a truck that only meets Euro 3 - but since the only time you need to be on Euro 4 or Euro 5 is whenever the vehicle is going through the equivalent of the NCT, why would you bother given how much AdBlue costs?

It should be pointed out that cars will not need anything like that level of AdBlue to meet Euro 6 - 30 litres of AdBlue would last long enough to get through even the long life service intervals most premium cars have - so 30 litres should be good for up to 30,000 km.

Because cars will have a massively lower rate of AdBlue consumption compared to trucks and buses, most cars with SCR do not have a seperate tank for AdBlue that you can access - it is conveniently hidden away so that you can only top up AdBlue when servicing a car! Trucks and buses that need AdBlue have a proper tank for AdBlue that anyone can fill up when required.

Forest Master

WTF is VAG?

Foxhole Norman

Forest Master wrote: »

WTF is VAG?

:eek: your asking this in a motoring forum?!

VAG is Volkswagen Audi Group.

guil

most of our volvo's run like ****e if they run out of adblue, 30 litre tank only lasts 2 days aswell

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

n97 mini

captainspeed wrote: »

Trucks will run without AdBlue no problem - just a warning light comes up on the dash. If it wasn't for the SCR technology and AdBlue, the engine would basically meet Euro 3 emissions - SCR allows the "engine" to become Euro 4 or Euro 5.

I think while you're generally on the right track you may need to look at your figures again. Euro 5 isn't that hard to achieve (in cars anyway, eg Mazda 6) without Adblue. (I think Scania are doing it in trucks too)

captainspeed wrote: »

Some really great engines over the years have been withdrawn because they couldn't meet the next emissions standard - Mazda's Renesis engine couldn't meet Euro 5 so that killed off the RX-8, the Civic Type-R is not sold in Europe any more because the i-VTEC engine does not meet Euro 5

No, they're both still on sale.
http://www.mazda.co.uk/showroom/rx-8/overview/
http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/civictyper/

Generally at any given time the US has higher standards than we do, so if it's not on sale here because it's too dirty, it's not going to be on sale there either.

Leonard Hofstadter

n97 mini wrote: »

I think while you're generally on the right track you may need to look at your figures again. Euro 5 isn't that hard to achieve (in cars anyway, eg Mazda 6) without Adblue. (I think Scania are doing it in trucks too)


No, they're both still on sale.
c:cool:
http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/civictyper/

Generally at any given time the US has higher standards than we do, so if it's not on sale here because it's too dirty, it's not going to be on sale there either.

Well if you read my post fully you would have seen that my reference to AdBlue being needed to make a Euro 3 engine good enough for Euro 4 and Euro 5 was only for trucks and buses - I never once mentioned it being needed for cars to reach Euro 5 and thanks be to God we don't need yet another thing to cause trouble!

Your link to the Civic Type-R clearly states that the car stopped being produced in October 2010 (which is incorrect as it is still made but is not allowed to be sold anywhere in the EU) - and this is because Euro 5 is now mandatory.

The same rules have killed off the RX-8.

The only cars that are left are surplus stock - Euro 5 has been compulsory since January this year!

The i-VTEC engine found in the Civic Type-R does not meet Euro 5. The CTR is still made in Swindon and is sold in markets that don't require Euro 5 emissions, such as South Africa.

n97 mini

captainspeed wrote: »

Well if you read my post fully you would have seen that my reference to AdBlue being needed to make a Euro 3 engine good enough for Euro 4 and Euro 5 was only for trucks and buses - I never once mentioned it being needed for cars to reach Euro 5 and thanks be to God we don't need yet another thing to cause trouble!

Keep your hair on. I did read your post. Why would you want a Euro 3 truck engine to pass Euro 5 emissions regulations? If it's Euro 3 it's an old design and shouldn't be used in new trucks. Or if it is people buying the trucks should look for a more modern engine design, like the Scania.

captainspeed wrote: »

The same rules have killed off the RX-8.

Rotary engines always required plenty of exhaust gas treatment due to design insufficiencies. It was only a matter of time before they decided enough was enough.

Foxhole Norman

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's the Volkswagen company on its own but with Audi and everyone else like SEAT under their banner its Volkswagen Audi Group.

RandomAccess

Hmm, I suppose its only a matter of time before it becomes impossible to buy an n/a petrol engined car. That will be quite a surprise.

zilog_jones

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

That's the Volkswagen company on its own but with Audi and everyone else like SEAT under their banner its Volkswagen Audi Group.

That is a common misconception, it's Volkswagen AG (Aktiengesellschaft - public company), and that is the parent company of Volkswagen Group. There's still an Audi AG as well, although wholly owned by Volkswagen Group. There was never a "Volkswagen Audi Group".

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Leonard Hofstadter

zilog_jones wrote: »

That is a common misconception, it's Volkswagen AG (Aktiengesellschaft - public company), and that is the parent company of Volkswagen Group. There's still an Audi AG as well, although wholly owned by Volkswagen Group. There was never a "Volkswagen Audi Group".

Actually, there was a Volkswagen Audi Group - but that was about 20-25 years ago!

Hard to believe it now, but there was a time when what is now the Volkswagen group owned just VW and Audi. Today the VW Group owns Bugatti, Porsche, Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini and Bently, but the commercial division also part owns Scania and MAN.

Does anyone remember the "VAG" logos in service booklets and brochures etc before they started buying up Skoda and other manufacturers?

That's where "VAG" came from, and while VAG is of course incorrect now, old habits die hard and anyone who knows what VAG stands for also knows that it is the term used to describe what is more accurately called the Volkswagen Group!

EPM

I've been bursting to say this since I saw this thread.

VAG have been pulling this p1ss for years:D

YouTookMyName

Forest Master wrote: »

WTF is VAG?

The sweetest thing with clean and the best ones squirt at you.

zilog_jones

captainspeed wrote: »

Actually, there was a Volkswagen Audi Group - but that was about 20-25 years ago!

Nope, there was never anything officially by that name - prove me wrong!
Apparently the "VAG" acronym was deliberately ambiguous: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/05/vwporsche-auto-union-what-the-nsfw/

Hard to believe it now, but there was a time when what is now the Volkswagen group owned just VW and Audi.

Not technically just Audi - until they changed their company name to Audi AG in 1985, it was still "Audi NSU Auto Union AG"

byte

zilog_jones wrote: »

Nope, there was never anything officially by that name - prove me wrong!
Apparently the "VAG" acronym was deliberately ambiguous: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/05/vwporsche-auto-union-what-the-nsfw/



Not technically just Audi - until they changed their company name to Audi AG in 1985, it was still "Audi NSU Auto Union AG"

That's an interesting article, as well as Bertel's other comments further down.

Forest Master

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

:eek: your asking this in a motoring forum?!

VAG is Volkswagen Audi Group.

Yeah, you clearly don't know either though.