Family member wants me to lie in Court

LegacyUser

Well, basically, a member of my family wants me to make a statement in court which would be a lie. It has to do with an insurance claim concerning the family home, there was some damage during the big freeze awhile back, pipes burst and the place got flooded. The insurance company won't pay out because they believed nobody was living there, so some of my family want me to say in court that I did stay there when I wasn't even in the county.

I feel conflicted about what to do. On the one hand, it's our family home, and this is my family, they have helped me out a massive amount in the past and I feel like it's my chance to pay them back in a way. I would do anything for them, but on the other hand I feel it is wrong to lie and especially so in court. They've told me that there would not be any reprecussions, I wouldn't go to jail, but I still don't like the idea. I don't know what to do right now, I don't want to seem ungrateful and like I am abandoning them. It's very confusing.

MissFlitworth

That's an awful lot of identifying information about your court case there. You might want to be careful how much information about it you put online

Shelga

They're asking you to perjure yourself in court just so they can get money?? :eek: Absolutely crazy, I wouldn't even consider it and would think less of them for asking. Are you willing to go to prison if the truth comes out? Even if it doesn't, it is something that will always be at the back of your mind for years to come.

Don't do it OP, under any circumstances.

LegacyUser

Why can't said family members say they were living there?

fasty

Putting the moral aspects aside. If you say you were there, they'll probably want some kind of proof. Insurance companies don't like to pay out, and insurance fraud is rife.

And from a moral point of view, you know it's wrong, could you live with yourself? I couldn't!

Beruthiel

veryconfusedindublin wrote: »

a member of my family wants me to make a statement in court which would be a lie.

If anybody asked me to do that, I would flat out refuse.
I wouldn't even do that for my hubby or daughter.
You have no clue where that black hole will end.

It's a serious thing to get caught lying in court and you very likely will get found out.

kylith

I wouldn't put it past the insurance agency to look into your past, and if they find out that you were out of the country then you'll be in a world of trouble and, yes, you could go to jail for perjury.

You say that they've done lots for you in the past, but unless that includes illegal activities then there's no comparison.

A firm "I do not feel comfortable getting on the stand and perjuring myself, and I'm not going to do it" is recommended, and stick to your guns come what may.

LegacyUser

Don't do that. Insurance companies are very thorough and can prove you were out of the country at the time. Then you'd be in BIG TROUBLE. It's just not worth it.

tbh

The insurance company have said there was no-one living there at the time.

They must have a reason for thinking this. If you pop up and say "actually, I was living there" the insurance company may think "really? that's not what we heard". Now, if this was a dispute between neighbours, it's your word against theirs.

However, insurance companies have full-time staff who's sole job is to check these things out. How easy would it be to prove you weren't there?
If they *could* prove you weren't there, I doubt they'd let the matter drop. They'd *probably* want to make an example of you.

It's a really tough position to be in, but I wouldn't do it. And, to be frank, I'd be pretty pissed at my family for putting me in a position where I'd have to refuse.

zxcvbnm1

Exactly - teh insurance company will know you weren't living there.
They will investigate you.Insurance companies are not fools.

You will be caught. It's a pretty serious crime to falsely claim. You will nearky definitely end up with a criminal record.

Tell your family flat out that you will not be doing it.
If they get teh hump with you then they are most cefrtainly in the wrong.

Can't believe that they would actually ask this of you in fact. Not nice !

Lon Dubh

I think there is a big chance of you getting caught, especially with being in a different country (e.g. bank records might show this if you withdrew money while abroad).

If you get exposed as being involved in a false insurance claim you might not ever be able to get insurance for yourself in the future (including car and house insurance) which could have very serious implications.

LegacyUser

they would petition gas\electricity companies for service usage in house at time which would be big factor in proving no one was there at the time.

this on top of neighbours statements would be all the proof they would need to convince a judge/jury that house was empty at time.

Then you will be royally up crap creek without a paddle and as other posters said you would have huge difficulties getting insurance in the future.

beeintheknow

They are your family and they are all that matters at the end of the day. If my family needed me to lie for them I would do it, no question.

Bee

tawnyowl

veryconfusedindublin wrote: »

Well, basically, a member of my family wants me to make a statement in court which would be a lie. It has to do with an insurance claim concerning the family home, there was some damage during the big freeze awhile back, pipes burst and the place got flooded. The insurance company won't pay out because they believed nobody was living there, so some of my family want me to say in court that I did stay there when I wasn't even in the county.

I feel conflicted about what to do. On the one hand, it's our family home, and this is my family, they have helped me out a massive amount in the past and I feel like it's my chance to pay them back in a way. I would do anything for them, but on the other hand I feel it is wrong to lie and especially so in court. They've told me that there would not be any reprecussions, I wouldn't go to jail, but I still don't like the idea. I don't know what to do right now, I don't want to seem ungrateful and like I am abandoning them. It's very confusing.

You are not being ungrateful, you are not abandoning them. They are making a very unreasonable request of you.

I don't see how they can say there will be no repercussions - they're asking you to perjure yourself. People can be prosecuted for that. Given that the insurance company doesn't believe anyone was living in the house at the time there is a good chance that any claim you were living there will be challenged, leading to possible legal problems for you.

tawnyowl

beeintheknow wrote: »

They are your family and they are all that matters at the end of the day. If my family needed me to lie for them I would do it, no question.

Bee

Bee,
the family is asking the OP to commit perjury, which is against the law. The family are being unreasonable.

See the last paragraph at this link:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/witnesses/rules_relating_to_your_evidence.html

zxcvbnm1

beeintheknow wrote: »

They are your family and they are all that matters at the end of the day. If my family needed me to lie for them I would do it, no question.

Bee

My good God ! What an incredible comment.

Bee - the OPs family don't need him to lie. They just want to swindle a few quid out of the insurance company because they are greedy for easy money. It's hardly life and death stuff.

The OP will nearly inevitably be caught and result with a criminal record. Would you knowingly allow yourself get a criminal record just because a greedy member of your family asked you to so as they could get their grubby paws on some extra cash?

If you woudl then bigger fool you.

To provide support for your family when they are in need of it is one thing. Acting like a complete idiot is an entirely different thing. You seem to be getting these 2 confused me thinks !

beeintheknow

They are your family and you should show some loyalty. They would do it for you.

LegacyUser

beeintheknow wrote: »

They are your family and you should show some loyalty. They would do it for you.

To your/their detriment let it be. So you'd seriously lie in court/commit fraud for your family? Not only that but it's idiots like this that increases cost for the rest of us decent/honest folk.

zxcvbnm1

beeintheknow wrote: »

They are your family and you should show some loyalty. They would do it for you.

Loyalty ?
The insurance company will very easily prove that the OP is lying. The OP will then get a criminal record.
The family will then get no money from the insurance company.
And the OP will suffer the consequences for perjuring in court.

This is exactly what will happen. Make no mistake about it.

Loyalty is one thing.
Acting like a complete idiot for no ones benefit - especially the OPs - is an entirely different thing.

These are entirely different things !!!

beeintheknow

a small lie to help your family? Get off your high horse.

zxcvbnm1

beeintheknow wrote: »

a small lie to help your family? Get off your high horse.

Ok - I'm assuming this is a wind up.

In the very off chance that it's not a wind up, tell me, how will it help his family when it is found out that he is not telling the truth?
Because that will happen.

How do the family benefit in that instance?

The fact that the OP is absolutely definitely going to be caught out in court seems to have gone over your head Bee.
This is lose-lose for everyone.
If he wants to help his family then the last thing he shoudl do is lie in court. Because the court will obviously know the family were in on it as well and they will also presumably face prosecution.

It's probably fair to say that you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the box are you Bee?

LegacyUser

beeintheknow wrote: »

a small lie to help your family? Get off your high horse.

Well birds of a feather flock together, so maybe the majority of people who think that it's okay to do this type of thing would be the same people who would do it anyways for themselves and have no problem asking someone to do it.

beeintheknow

No wind up. If everyone sticks to their story you will be fine. Family- that's what's important. not the views of internet busybodies.

'oh noes what if you getz caught????'

Please...

zxcvbnm1

beeintheknow wrote: »

No wind up. If everyone sticks to their story you will be fine. Family- that's what's important. not the views of internet busybodies.

'oh noes what if you getz caught????'

Please...

Amazing....well, they do say there's one born every minute I suppose.

beeintheknow

beeintheknow wrote: »

If everyone sticks to their story you will be fine. Family- that's what's important.

If everyone sticks to the story, all the insurance company has to do is look at one electricity bill to know no one was living there.

Family is important to me, but if my family asked me to go to jail for them I would know that family isn't important to them. The only possibility I can see here is that the OP's family doesn't realise the seriousness of their request. As soon as the insurance company establishes that no one was living in the house, it wont just be the OP that gets prosecuted.

OP, beeintheknow is right about one thing. Family is important. And the most caring thing you can do for your family is to say no. Why? Because your family might be angry at you for saying no. To do something good for your family, while knowing that they might never appreciate it, is the very definition of putting them ahead of what you want. Ahead of your feelings and ahead of their misguided assumptions. And why is saying no the best thing for them? Because when (not if) you get found out, they won't get their money, and they'll be prosecuted just like you.

They must just not realise what they're asking. Explain to them that the insurance company will have investigators, and that everything from electricity bills to CCTV will prove that you were somewhere else. You wouldn't just have to prove that you were in their house, you'd also have to prove that you weren't at all the places you've been in the time you're meant to have been there.

beeintheknow

What can I see... the bee's buzz is all about family. Perhaps I am blinded by that. I am just telling you what I would do.

zxcvbnm1

beeintheknow wrote: »

What can I see... the bee's buzz is all about family. Perhaps I am blinded by that. I am just telling you what I would do.

Wow. I really didn't realise people like this existed.

So - when the writing is so clearly on the wall as to what would happen, you would still insist on charging through and knowingly in the process get yourself and your family prosecuted for fraud yes?
And that's your idea of loyalty?

Bee - just out of sheer curiosity - (because i really am flabergasted here) - just how far does this family buzz go for you?

As a simple example, if you were in a shop and a family member asked you to rob a loaf of bread or a towel or something on their behalf would you do it just because they asked you to?
And if not, why not?

(I'm just trying to get inside your mind here to uncover what atually goes on in there because I'm genuinely intrigued)

dilallio

What sort of family would ask a son / daughter to lie in Court and risk prison or a criminal record ???

OP - Do not do this under any circumstance.

1. The Insurance company has already hired an Investigator to perform a detailed investigation, and they would not even think about going to Court unless they were sure they had evidence to support their side of the story. Unless you know what this evidence is, and you can calmly and intelligently refute it (Lie) in Court with a straight-face while facing the judge & insurance company barrister, do NOT go there.

2. If you stand up and state that you were living in the place, you will be asked for evidence that you lived there. You will be asked for evidence of where you work, or dole statements if you are unemployed. Because you were not even in the country, you cannot do this. The insurance company's barrister wil have plenty of time to question you on what you were doing and when. If you don't answer you will not look credible. If you do answer, you may get caught out by giving conflicting information.

3. If you want to get out of this without confronting your family, tell them that you just got a call from an investigator telling you that he knows that you were out of the country and he cannot find evidence of you returning, and he wants you to send him an airline ref no for the flight you took to be in Ireland when the claim arose. I know it's a lie, but it may get your family to reconsider.

Taltos

OP - you can end this very simply.

Tell your family member - NO
Inform them that if asked under oath you will NOT lie.

Look it is so easy to find out the truth here.
> electricity readings
> telephone bills
> your own credit card bills from abroad the other county
> your hotel bills from abroad the other county.
> your mobile phone history - including what signal towers you were connected to.

This is NOT a question of if you get caught it - it is a question of the sentence you will receive for misleading the court.

I am all for helping our my family too but not to the extent of losing my own name and risking my future employment. Some people are just idiots - and sometimes these idiots are our relations...

beeintheknow

He said county not country so it shouldn't be too difficult. Just say you were only there a couple of nights a week and ignore the 'oh noes' brigade.

zxcvbnm1

beeintheknow wrote: »

He said county not country so it shouldn't be too difficult. Just say you were only there a couple of nights a week and ignore the 'oh noes' brigade.

Bee- there is a very great chance (if not inevitability) that the whole family will be prosecuted for fraud.

Given that you are so into the family buzz as you claim, then woudl it not be in teh OPs interest to educate his clearly dumb family on the risks?

That is a far better version of family loyalty than the version you brand about.

temply

beeintheknow wrote: »

They are your family and they are all that matters at the end of the day. If my family needed me to lie for them I would do it, no question.

Bee

very silly

tinkerbell

OP, do not lie in court.

An insurance company is not stupid. They go through claims every day, they have to identify what is a valid claim and what is not. They are professionals at identifying who is telling the truth and who is lying.

Lie in court and commit fraud and you will be ruined. You could go to jail, be fined, you may never get an insurance policy again in your own name, etc. etc. And if you are caught commiting insurance fraud and then can't get a policy, then you will never own your own home (because you are required to buy a life insurance policy), you won't be able to get motor insurance, etc. etc. The list goes on.

Your family should not ask you to lie for them.

wazzoraybelle

I think there was a thread on the motors forum discussing a motor claim before and the insurance company pointed out the thread to the claimant who was the OP.
From what you have disclosed already on the thread an insurance company would know;

You're from dublin,
You're family's home was flooded due to recent cold weather and the company is of the impression it was vacant.
The claimants are contesting this in court stating a family member (most likely a son or daughter) was living there.

That family member was actually living abroad, and will not be able to provide payslips, social welfare, or any bills in their name for the period in question as they were living abroad at the time.

Insurance companies are employing people to look through forums, and social media to root out fraud.
I would forget about this whole idea if only for the reason that you have posted so much information.

tell your family you're sorry but they have to move on, and forget about their claim.
there will be many more opportunities in your life to repay your family's generosity.

Best of luck
Wazzo

dudara

Sometimes to protect your family, you have to say "NO". I'd be disgusted with my family if I knew they were trying to profiteer and scam an insurance company, particularly in court. Yes, family is important. But it doesn't mean that you have to be blindly loyal to them.

There is a huge personal risk in this for you, and for your family. If it is proven that you were not in the house, then you could face prosecution for lying in court.

In addition, your family could also face prosecution and also be blacklisted by insurance companies. They will find it hard to access insurance at a reasonable cost forever.

In short, don't do it.

tawnyowl

beeintheknow wrote: »

a small lie to help your family? Get off your high horse.

The OP is being asked to lie under oath. Here is what citizensinformation.ie has to say on the matter:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/witnesses/rules_relating_to_your_evidence.html

Your main duty as a witness is to tell the truth to the court. If you knowingly make a false statement under oath, you may have committed the crime of "perjury" and you may be prosecuted.

emilyjmc

Definitely do not go and lie in court. I work in the insurance industry and know from experience that the company will not go to court unless they are dead sure to win the case. They will already have proof that you were not in the country as they will already have engaged the services of a private investigator so if you lie you will be found out. If the insurance company were in doubt that they would win the case they would have made an out of court settlement. Your family may not be pleased if you don't do what they ask but they will get over it. Good luck!

Delancey

It would be very rare for a person convicted of perjury to receive a Non-Custodial sentence .
In otherwords if you are charged and convicted of perjury you are looking at a jail sentence.

Naikon

Perjury is very serious sh4t. Don't do it.

fallen01angel

Hi OP,I agree with Bee statement that family is most important thing,if one of my family needed anything from me I'd give it in a heartbeat,but for them to ask you to lie for them in court is putting you in a terrible position and although it probably will cause some problems for you with regards to your relationship with them I would STRONGLY advise you to tell them you cannot do this.As other posters here correctly stated insurance companies fully investigate claims and will easily prove the house was unoccupied.Shame on your family for putting you in this situation.

Moomoo1

Taltos wrote: »

Look it is so easy to find out the truth here.
> electricity readings
> telephone bills
> your own credit card bills from abroad the other county
> your hotel bills from abroad the other county.
> your mobile phone history - including what signal towers you were connected to.

naive question - but what about data protection? How is a business able to obtain what should be highly confidential info about yourself?

OT: this is why I get as little insurance as possible. Those big companies fleece you on and then take every little excuse to not pay out that they possibly can. And the whole system backs them in doing that.

beeintheknow

Lots of fannys on here.

Ickle Magoo

beeintheknow, I see you are new to boards.

I'd advise that you take the time to read the forum charter [URL=" http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056181484"]here[/URL] and Boards general posting rules and etiquette here if you wish to continue posting in this forum.

Taltos

Moomoo1 wrote: »

naive question - but what about data protection? How is a business able to obtain what should be highly confidential info about yourself?

OT: this is why I get as little insurance as possible. Those big companies fleece you on and then take every little excuse to not pay out that they possibly can. And the whole system backs them in doing that.

Good question and not naive at all. I unfortunately can't answer that.
However - just do a quick search on your own name on Google - due to my name only a few hits come up and they are all me.

In terms of bank details etc - all can be accessed via a warrent - and I would expect a half decent PI can also provide some similar information - eg by going through your trash on the street - how many of these documents would be there? Remember once thrown out they are fair game - and that is without a warrant to the service providers.

mikemac

Insurance companies aren't fools and employ private detectives to catch out people.

And about this claim, one ESB bill would have proved this is a story. You don't need Jessica Fletcher to crack this one. Unless during the freeze last winter you want to claim you lived without heat and power.

Let the person proposing this do their own lying if they want to follow through.
You should stay out of it

thefeatheredcat

OP, what a terrible position to be placed in!

I've worked in the insurance industry and even though it was not in claims I have worked closely with claims in home insurance. While out doing the claims investigation, there would have been photographic evidence taken at the time when they went out to assess the claim. So the chances are, if they have reason to believe that there was nobody resident at the house, they WILL have evidence to confirm this. It may not just be photographic or notes, but they could have asked questions in the area, or there could have been some obvious tell-tale signs that would have been documented as well as confirming that indeed the house is a residential premises that is indeed used by checking with suppliers of services. The bigger the cost of the claim, the more checking and double checking and fine combing they will do when assessing the claim.

Personally I think it's unfair of your family to place you in such a position, because there will be repercussions should you lie, such as having this on your conscious but there could also be other knock on effects if the case is awarded in favour of the insurance company that if they won the case, the cost of the case could be awarded against the family. I assume your family are being represented by a solicitor, and the solicitor can only go in there with facts, so if you were to entertain the idea of you living there, there would indeed need to be extensive paperwork and evidence to prove this point, as it would be a vital part of the case in argument. They're not just going to take your word for it that you were actually living there.

I would take the usual stance of if in doubt, don't. OK your family may be unhappy with you for a while, but they might respect you for it. However, yes, of course they are your family and of course, like any parents, they have done a lot for you, just don't let that guilt you into doing something that goes against your own moral compass.

Ask yourself this: if this was a neighbour or a friend asking you to do this (that perhaps known for years, but don't owe anything to), would you? maybe in that you might find an answer for yourself.

booboo88

Moomoo1 wrote: »

naive question - but what about data protection? How is a business able to obtain what should be highly confidential info about yourself?

OT: this is why I get as little insurance as possible. Those big companies fleece you on and then take every little excuse to not pay out that they possibly can. And the whole system backs them in doing that.

They dont obtain it from abouve companies, you have to prove you were living there.

as mentioned, meter readings, will quite clearly show no one was living there.
no movement on bank acc?
no job?
no social protection payments?
it will be a clear as day op, and you wil be prosecuted

Cork Lass

Hey op. Do not do this. The insurance companies leave no stone unturned and you will end up in deep sh*te. Very mean of your family to even ask this of you.

Guaranteed to get caught if they already suspect no one was living there.. Even an ESB bill will prove that no one could have been living there.

chloek

veryconfusedindublin wrote: »

Well, basically, a member of my family wants me to make a statement in court which would be a lie. It has to do with an insurance claim concerning the family home, there was some damage during the big freeze awhile back, pipes burst and the place got flooded. The insurance company won't pay out because they believed nobody was living there, so some of my family want me to say in court that I did stay there when I wasn't even in the county.

I feel conflicted about what to do. On the one hand, it's our family home, and this is my family, they have helped me out a massive amount in the past and I feel like it's my chance to pay them back in a way. I would do anything for them, but on the other hand I feel it is wrong to lie and especially so in court. They've told me that there would not be any reprecussions, I wouldn't go to jail, but I still don't like the idea. I don't know what to do right now, I don't want to seem ungrateful and like I am abandoning them. It's very confusing.

They have no right to ask you to lie in court for them. Insurance companies are not willing to pay out any more without checking everything. They could ask for proof that you were living there.

Don't commit yourself to a lie that will get you into trouble.

Citygirl1

OP - Perhaps your family/parents don't fully understand the concept of perjury, how serious it is, and the possible consequences. I'd find this quite possible - Ireland is a country where respectable people are used to the idea of "getting away" with things (doing nixers, unaccompanied provisional drivers, TDs accepting bribes).

In this case, rather than having a row, you need to sit down, and very firmly and calmly explain to them how serious an issue this is. Perhaps another family member can help?

They may also not have fully thought through how you would certainly be caught, as outlined by other posters. If they still don't get this, perhaps show them this thread.