Could an Environmental Tax on Cheap Foreign Imports Save our Local Economy ?

Bob Cratchet

As much as our protected golden circle of millionaires would like to try and force it to be so, our wages will never be able to compete with the exploited third world's rates of pay.

Hence Ireland is flooded with cheaply produced goods and vegetables super-tankered from half way across the world, hence our small domestic suppliers will never be able to compete.

Very little money is circulating in the local towns and villages anymore, what little local money there is, gets hoovered up by foreign owned supermarkets, selling mostly cheap foreign goods. Most of this local money in turn does little for the local economy and leaves Ireland for good.

Would an environmental tax on certain foods and goods that can be produced in Ireland, along the lines of an air/sea miles principle, also help our local economies compete ?

Can the usual neighsayers please give this thread a rest a look at how this principle might be adapted or altered to offer us some benefit ?

As Henry Ford once said "If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." Hence neighsaying in this case will always be doomed to failure.

Victor

We already do this with cars, oil and tobacco.

EU, GATT and WTO rules say you can't tax (most) goods differently solely on origin. EU rules say that governments can't unfairly subsidise businesses.

digme

We are not in charge, get used to it

Do we want to trade fairly with the third world or do we want to keep pumping aid into them??

If we trade and they develop then we will have bigger markets and investment opportunities & if we import cheap goods then it can boost our productivity (in business cases) and at a private level have more money to spend on other goods and services - its win win.

Scofflaw

It's "nay-saying", as in saying "nay" or "no" to things...although admittedly there are people whose views could be fairly characterised with your variant.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Pete_Cavan

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

As much as our protected golden circle of millionaires would like to try and force it to be so, our wages will never be able to compete with the exploited third world's rates of pay.

Hence Ireland is flooded with cheaply produced goods and vegetables super-tankered from half way across the world, hence our small domestic suppliers will never be able to compete.

Very little money is circulating in the local towns and villages anymore, what little local money there is, gets hoovered up by foreign owned supermarkets, selling mostly cheap foreign goods. Most of this local money in turn does little for the local economy and leaves Ireland for good.

Would an environmental tax on certain foods and goods that can be produced in Ireland, along the lines of an air/sea miles principle, also help our local economies compete ?

The real problem here is the cost of doing business here. Wages, rents and electricity are all very expensive. We would be better off trying to reduce they costs instead of taxing efficient foreign producers so Irish producers can rip off people.

Also, our economy is very reliant on exports, if other countries took the same approach it would do serious damage to us.

Bob Cratchet

Victor wrote: »

EU, GATT and WTO rules say you can't tax (most) goods differently solely on origin. EU rules say that governments can't unfairly subsidise businesses.

Nobody is talking about taxing them solely on origin. It's about saving the planet from all that sea and air miles pollution.

digme wrote: »

We are not in charge, get used to it

That's a different topic, and you may enjoy your new found serfdom, but some of us prefer to die on our feet before we would live on ours knees. Just because someone claims to be in charge does not mean you obey them. Did the Nuremburg trials teach you nothing about blindly following orders ?

Deleted User wrote: »

Do we want to trade fairly with the third world or do we want to keep pumping aid into them??

If we trade and they develop then we will have bigger markets and investment opportunities & if we import cheap goods then it can boost our productivity (in business cases) and at a private level have more money to spend on other goods and services - its win win.

No one is talking about not trading fairly with the third world. There are many products and resources that can only be bought from the third world, that do not effect the production of Irish goods, e.g. fairtrade coffee, but exporting very little and importing everything is a win-loose for us.

How can Irish industry ever survive if an Irish man with a family to support fairly expects €10 per hour, yet an Irish fat cat can go abroad and get it from a foreign factory that pays a 10 year old in a sweat shop abroad to do it for 20c an hour ? Wakey Wakey.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The real problem here is the cost of doing business here. Wages, rents and electricity are all very expensive. We would be better off trying to reduce they costs instead of taxing efficient foreign producers so Irish producers can rip off people.

The real problem is fat cat profiteering. Irelands wealthiest all increased their wealth substantially in the last few years, in the middle of a recession, by using it as an excuse to screw the ordinary working man (see the Sunday times rich list)
Wages is only one factor, and the ordinary man benefits from his wages.
The rest is down to fat cat profiteering. Profit margins have actually increased while the ordinary man faces ruin and unemployment.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Also, our economy is very reliant on exports, if other countries took the same approach it would do serious damage to us.

Other countries don't have the balls for a low corporation tax rate either. All is fair in business, especially when your country is trying to survive.

Nijmegen

Tariffs on overseas goods as you describe, for whatever reason, is protectionism and apart from being against the 'rules' that countries adhere to for good reason (from hard won experience), they are not sustainable to real economic growth.

Firstly, you are artificially cushioning the Irish economy and allowing inefficiencies to hold in a way they cannot in a free market. This is bad for the entire economy in the long run.

Secondly, you invite counter-tariffs. Ireland is an open economy, which is export-driven. If we begin to tariff imports, we can expect our exports to be targeted in a trade war.

As an example, China is a big exporter to us of cheap goods. Ireland is also one of two countries in the world - only two - who export more to China than we import. In 2010 we exported €2.39bn to them while importing €1.41bn.

What if they decide to slap big tariffs onto our exports in response?

Thirdly, in relation to history, Dev slapped a whole load of tariffs onto imports largely because of a falloff in international demand for Irish agri goods following the onset of the great depression (sound familiar?).

Needless to say, as any junior or leaving cert history student this month could tell you, it didn't go well.

si_guru

Nijmegen wrote: »

As an example, China is a big exporter to us of cheap goods. Ireland is also one of two countries in the world - only two - who export more to China than we import. In 2010 we exported €2.39bn to them while importing €1.41bn.

That is interesting.. really. Thanks.

Bob Cratchet

Nijmegen wrote: »

What if they decide to slap big tariffs onto our exports in response?

Thirdly, in relation to history, Dev slapped a whole load of tariffs onto imports largely because of a falloff in international demand for Irish agri goods following the onset of the great depression (sound familiar?).

Needless to say, as any junior or leaving cert history student this month could tell you, it didn't go well.

Ireland is but a flea compared to China, if the USA done it they might be annoyed, and if they want Irish milk/fish or the likes they will buy it, and believe me, they will soon buy it a lot cheaper from eastern europe and their €2 an hour slave labour. They have no loyalty to Ireland.

As for dev-il eire trying to starve John Bull, any national school student will tell you that was territorial politics against the UK, not international markets. The UK is our main trading partner. Air and sea miles and sweat shop labour is not a problem.

Tora Bora

digme wrote: »

We are not in charge, get used to it

When we were in charge, we didn't tax anything, and anything which by chance we did tax, e invented a scheme, to give the would be tax payers a way to legally avoid paying.

Now we are not in charge we want to tax every fcuking thing including tax itself.
Talk about a bunch of fcuking clowns.

Nijmegen

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Ireland is but a flea compared to China, if the USA done it they might be annoyed, and if they want Irish milk/fish or the likes they will buy it, and believe me, they will soon buy it a lot cheaper from eastern europe and their €2 an hour slave labour. They have no loyalty to Ireland.

As for dev-il eire trying to starve John Bull, any national school student will tell you that was territorial politics against the UK, not international markets. The UK is our main trading partner. Air and sea miles and sweat shop labour is not a problem.

Hey Bob,


Ireland is indeed a flea compared to China. That would make it particularly simple to level a tariff at us, to make a point.

Our exports to China have grown 800% in the past ten years, currently representing 3% of our exports, and could grow to 7% of our exports by 2015 (at a time when net exports are growing strongly.)

Think about that.

Also, you're forgetting that most of these low wage economies are the growth engines of the world at the moment - Brazil, China and India in particular are booming economies that you either trade with, or you don't grow your own economy. By 2040 the BRIC countries will overtake the G8 in size.

Your protectionist idea is simplistic and hasn't worked in the past for us or anyone, regardless of PR arguments about sweatshops and air miles.

In relation to Dev, the trade war was half nationalism and half real economic pain when demand collapsed for Irish goods.

By the way, what we export to China today is less than 20% food. 65% of it is computer related.

Bob Cratchet

Nijmegen wrote: »

Hey Bob,


Ireland is indeed a flea compared to China. That would make it particularly simple to level a tariff at us, to make a point.

Our exports to China have grown 800% in the past ten years, currently representing 3% of our exports, and could grow to 7% of our exports by 2015 (at a time when net exports are growing strongly.)

Think about that.

Also, you're forgetting that most of these low wage economies are the growth engines of the world at the moment - Brazil, China and India in particular are booming economies that you either trade with, or you don't grow your own economy. By 2040 the BRIC countries will overtake the G8 in size.

Your protectionist idea is simplistic and hasn't worked in the past for us or anyone, regardless of PR arguments about sweatshops and air miles.

In relation to Dev, the trade war was half nationalism and half real economic pain when demand collapsed for Irish goods.

By the way, what we export to China today is less than 20% food. 65% of it is computer related.

You keep missing the point. Only the goods that can be produced locally in Ireland should face an environmental tax. Goods/materials that can only be obtained from China, fine , no problem. But do we really need any more cheap plastic toys or tools manufactured by a 10 year old in a sweat shop on 25 cent an hour ?

As for you computer related exports they are not going to last long, and Indian in Dehli with a Phd will be happy to do it for €1 per hour.

Nijmegen

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

You keep missing the point. Only the goods that can be produced locally in Ireland should face an environmental tax. Goods/materials that can only be obtained from China, fine , no problem. But do we really need any more cheap plastic toys or tools manufactured by a 10 year old in a sweat shop on 25 cent an hour ?

As for you computer related exports they are not going to last long, and Indian in Dehli with a Phd will be happy to do it for €1 per hour.

Hi Bob,

If you level a tariff against one set of goods or another, or all of them, makes no difference. The spiral into a trade war almost becomes inevitable. The bra wars - eventually averted - between the EU and China in 2005 is a good example of how these sorts of things just don't work. It's like going nuclear.

You don't seem to come armed with very many facts. The average cost of labour in China has been going up 10% YOY, and far ahead of productivity (there's an inflation bubble threatening to build in China at the moment). India, likewise, is nowhere near the low wages you seem to imagine.

The cost of Chinese exports is estimated to increase about 15% this year.

There are really, really low wage countries for sure, but they are not yet major export players.

The fact is, free markets exist for a reason and countries that have tried to move away from them, let alone a country that relies on free trade as much as we do to sell our goods, fail.

Also... What products specifically would you single out, that we make here in Ireland but are seeing jobs driven out by Chinese workers...?

As far as I know, we play in high end manufacturing, services, R&D... And don't directly compete with them on much at all.

Unless you are proposing that this Christmas we put Irish workers into toy factories? And, pray tell, what will you do when retail sales collapse because goods are now far too expensive...?

amacachi

Will Cap and Trade not be addressing this somewhat? Having sent European and US manufacturing abroad we can now tax them for polluting?

Bob Cratchet

Nijmegen wrote: »

Hi Bob,

If you level a tariff against one set of goods or another, or all of them, makes no difference. The spiral into a trade war almost becomes inevitable. The bra wars - eventually averted - between the EU and China in 2005 is a good example of how these sorts of things just don't work. It's like going nuclear.

You don't seem to come armed with very many facts. The average cost of labour in China has been going up 10% YOY, and far ahead of productivity (there's an inflation bubble threatening to build in China at the moment). India, likewise, is nowhere near the low wages you seem to imagine.

The cost of Chinese exports is estimated to increase about 15% this year.

There are really, really low wage countries for sure, but they are not yet major export players.

The fact is, free markets exist for a reason and countries that have tried to move away from them, let alone a country that relies on free trade as much as we do to sell our goods, fail.

Also... What products specifically would you single out, that we make here in Ireland but are seeing jobs driven out by Chinese workers...?

As far as I know, we play in high end manufacturing, services, R&D... And don't directly compete with them on much at all.

Unless you are proposing that this Christmas we put Irish workers into toy factories? And, pray tell, what will you do when retail sales collapse because goods are now far too expensive...?

Again you're off on a Chinese love tangent, do you really think it makes environmental sense to tanker in carrots, potatoes and meat halfway across the world from Israel and Brazil etc. while Irish farms close up ?