Cheating - It's a dirty word, but also a fact of life... why do we do it?

ShiftCtrl08

Firstly, before I tell my own personal story... I would like to warn people that it is contraversial. But please try to add something constructive to this discussion.


MY STORY -->


I have something to admit - I CHEATED IN EVERY SINGLE EXAM IN MY ENTIRE LIFE !!

It started when I was preparing for my leaving cert mocks and i've been cheating in exams ever since - and i've never been caught!

I done very well in my LC and went on to college, where I continued cheating with great success. I earned an honours degree and went on to get a masters.

Now i'm in a very well paid and rewarding job, with a number of people working under me. These individuals are very talented and intelligent people, more intelligent then me actually (at least academically speaking).

Sometimes they look at me and I swear they know i'm a fraud - but you know what?, I always manage to wing it... I can talk my way out of any situation and I have great leadership skills and authority.

I know i've got no right to be where I am in life (morally or academically), But i've always tried to rationalise my actions as a means to an end. Life is unfair and people don't always get what they deserve - sometimes you just get what you take... at least that's always been my rationale.

I started cheating purely out of necessity. I wasn't prepared and I hadn't put the work in... but I wanted the results - I wanted to do as well as everyone else.

I thought up some ingenious ways to cheat down the years, often going to great lengths to decieve examiners. I know what some of you will be thinking... why didn't you just use that time and energy studying instead, right?

And it's a good question. I've thought about it alot, and the conclusion i've arrived at is this: I ENJOY CHEATING - I love the feeling you get when you get away with it. IT'S LIKE AN ADRENILINE RUSH !! lol

Now, I have to say i'm not a dishonest person in other aspects of my life. In fact i'm quite the opposite... I like to think i'm quite an honest person, with a keen sense of morality. I know what I did was wrong - but I still did it...

I think i'm probably the exception to the rule with regards to cheating. I would agree with alot of people that most cheaters infact DO get caught. I've seen them, and of course you can just be unlucky too - I had a few near misses in my time.

What is the moral of my story...? I'm not really sure, I guess i'll leave that for you guys to decide.

Are their others with similar stories or experiences out there...? Perhaps there is something that drives this sort of behaviour - other then merely getting a 'buzz' from it...

So, basically i'm trying to understand what led me do this... Am I just a bad person? And why do I enjoy the 'buzz' of cheating?

I've met people who are what you might call 'Woman-isers'. Now to me in every other aspect of their lives they seem well adjusted decent human beings - but they seem to be incapable of being faithful in relationships. I tend to draw parallels with this in relation to my own indiscretions.


So, what do people think? I would be very interested to get opinions from people on this issue...

looksee

Its a bit hard to know what to say. You did it and got away with it. (Or you are just trying to stir up a discussion.) Nobody will be able to prove it one way or the other at this stage, so all that remains is that you can live with yourself. It isn't the worst thing in the world if you compare it to, say, murder or robbery, and a lot of people will say good man, good luck to you.

As it happens I don't think that exams are the best way of judging a person's intelligence, but really, that is not the point.

If it is all as you say then I think its a rather sad way to lead your life, but it is your life, you don't appear to be affecting anyone else, so it doesn't matter what I think. I don't think I entirely believe you though.

Edit: OK I have just seen your other post on the LC forum, yes I agree with RLH you are stirring it.

Da Shins Kelly

It's not for me, but it's your life, so whatever.

randylonghorn

looksee wrote: »

Edit: OK I have just seen your other post on the LC forum, yes I agree with RLH you are stirring it.

In fairness to OP, having had a PM exchange with him in the interim, I am no longer quite as sure that he is.

That is not a character reference or anything; I'm not saying I'm sure that he's not stirring it; I'm simply saying that as a result of our exchange I'm no longer as convinced as I was that it's that clear-cut.

It was I who suggested to the OP that, as an adult looking back on his life, if he wanted a discussion about the ethics of cheating, or what makes some people find it acceptable / unacceptable, here might be a good place. LC, especially at the moment, certainly isn't the place.

And yes, I have encountered people before who have cheated because they got an adrenalin rush out of cheating the system.

ShiftCtrl08

looksee wrote: »

Its a bit hard to know what to say. You did it and got away with it. (Or you are just trying to stir up a discussion.) Nobody will be able to prove it one way or the other at this stage, so all that remains is that you can live with yourself. It isn't the worst thing in the world if you compare it to, say, murder or robbery, and a lot of people will say good man, good luck to you.

As it happens I don't think that exams are the best way of judging a person's intelligence, but really, that is not the point.

If it is all as you say then I think its a rather sad way to lead your life, but it is your life, you don't appear to be affecting anyone else, so it doesn't matter what I think. I don't think I entirely believe you though.

Edit: OK I have just seen your other post on the LC forum, yes I agree with RLH you are stirring it.

No i'm not stirring... my previous post was pulled by a mod.

I discussed it with him in private and we agreed it might have been the wrong thread to start such a discussion. He suggested that I should post it elsewhere, rather then the education section... and that's what i'm doing.

Like I said at the beginning of my post... I understand it's a contraversial topic - but i'm not stirring. If it makes people angry I understand that too - but my aim is to stimulate debate on the issue as it seems to be a 'taboo' subject.

We know it goes on, it always has... I think there is merit in discussing it.

The first time was probably desperation but after that you developed a risk addicts its the same thing that makes people gambling addicts.

ShiftCtrl08

looksee wrote: »

so all that remains is that you can live with yourself.

I thought this was an interesting point. The fact that i'm on here telling my story would suggest that I do have some guilt about what i've done...

However it's not quite that simple either, because it's not like I cry myself to sleep at night about how big a fraud I am. There are people in this world who scam people or sell drugs to kids... i'm not so sure i'd sleep soundly at night if I was one of those individuals.

I also think my guilt has led to me being quite generous in other aspects of my everyday life... probably as a way of compensating for my past actions. I regularly donate to various charities and I also help my friends and family out when they need me.

I seem to be the person they come to when they need help or advice, which only really makes me feel like a bigger fraud sometimes.

The problem I have is this: Even if I wanted to come clean with my friends and family and admit these things - I can't. I have too many people depending on me, I can't let those people down...

Telling the truth (ironically) might end up hurting more people then I would if I just said nothing...

So, in my mind keeping this secret is the lesser of two evils as far as I can see.

So in answer to this point... "can I live with myself?" I guess my answer is yes, because I simply have no other choice at this moment in time.


Is cheating/or lying about cheating acceptable in certain circumstances..? Especially if the consequences of the alternative are possibly worse??

looksee

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

I thought this was an interesting point. The fact that i'm on here telling my story would suggest that I do have some guilt about what i've done...

However it's not quite that simple either, because it's not like I cry myself to sleep at night about how big a fraud I am. There are people in this world who scam people or sell drugs to kids... i'm not so sure i'd sleep soundly at night if I was one of those individuals.

Yes you would. You would justify it to yourself in the same way you are trying to justify what you have done.

I also think my guilt has led to me being quite generous in other aspects of my everyday life... probably as a way of compensating for my past actions. I regularly donate to various charities and I also help my friends and family out when they need me.

I seem to be the person they come to when they need help or advice, which only really makes me feel like a bigger fraud sometimes.

The problem I have is this: Even if I wanted to come clean with my friends and family and admit these things - I can't. I have too many people depending on me, I can't let those people down...

Telling the truth (ironically) might end up hurting more people then I would if I just said nothing...

So, in my mind keeping this secret is the lesser of two evils as far as I can see.

So in answer to this point... "can I live with myself?" I guess my answer is yes, because I simply have no other choice at this moment in time.


Is cheating/or lying about cheating acceptable in certain circumstances..? Especially if the consequences of the alternative are possibly worse??

You were self-indulgent about allowing yourself to cheat, to tell your family and friends at this stage would be more self-indulgence. What is there to gain by telling them, apart from some relief for you? You would cause them distress, and they have done nothing to deserve it.

If it really is a problem to you you could do one of a couple of things. One is talk to a professional counsellor and let them help you sort your head.

Or the other possibility would be to make some sort of reparation to yourself. Maybe do another Master's degree in your spare time, so that you could feel that you do actually have the skills you are claiming.

It would not be easy and it would be expensive, but redirect finance from whatever you spend on - the gym or holidays for example - so you are not affecting your family. You could tell them vaguely that it would be a help in your career. Which it would if this business is really affecting you.

But having done it, let it go, its in the past. Many people have memories of doing things they are not proud of in their youth, from shoplifting to aggression, drugs, etc. Eventually you have to forgive yourself and become an adult.

Starokan

I dont think your story is that controversial. Many people cheat in some form or another , at least you can admit it to yourself.

Clearly you must possess some level of competency in your job, you would not be able to simply wing it on a permanent basis.

Clearly you are also not an honest person with a keen sense of morality though. Your actions directly contradict this , if you had the keen sense of morality you claim to possess then you simply would not cheat.

I would be of the opinion that your past is your past , you cant alter it so stop dwelling on it. Focus on living your life from this point on as the person you would really wish to be. If thats life as someone who cheats to get places well then thats who you wish to be. I see no reason to condemn you. Its your choice.

Is cheating or lying acceptable ? That all depends on the situation you find yourself in I guess. My own experience of being in these situations is that yes you can get away with something but you can live with yourself a little easier when you operate from a truthful platform. Truth will always set you free

ShiftCtrl08

looksee wrote: »

Or the other possibility would be to make some sort of reparation to yourself. Maybe do another Master's degree in your spare time, so that you could feel that you do actually have the skills you are claiming.

I have actually considered this in the past, or something similar. The cost would not be an issue, but the time involved most certainly would be.

I always found my course very boring and indeed I find certain aspects of my job to be quite boring too. I think that's part of the reason why I felt the need to cheat the system... it stimulated my mind and inspired me far more then the subject matter ever did! lol

Starokan wrote: »

Clearly you must possess some level of competency in your job, you would not be able to simply wing it on a permanent basis.

Clearly you are also not an honest person with a keen sense of morality though. Your actions directly contradict this , if you had the keen sense of morality you claim to possess then you simply would not cheat.

I would be of the opinion that your past is your past , you cant alter it so stop dwelling on it. Focus on living your life from this point on as the person you would really wish to be. If thats life as someone who cheats to get places well then thats who you wish to be. I see no reason to condemn you. Its your choice.

Is cheating or lying acceptable ? That all depends on the situation you find yourself in I guess. My own experience of being in these situations is that yes you can get away with something but you can live with yourself a little easier when you operate from a truthful platform. Truth will always set you free

I have a rudimentary knowledge of most aspects of my job. But you really would be surprised how easily I can bridge certain gaps in my knowledge - I can be quite inventive in that respect.

Einstein once said that 'imagination is more important then knowledge'... and in my case this seems true, because lack of knowledge doesn't seem to be a barrier to my progression in life.

Clearly this kind of behaviour would not be possible in other professions... if I was a doctor for example, i'm quite sure I would have been found out a long time ago. The Irony of course, is that I earn as much as most doctors do....

I get by on my personality, my charisma and my leadership qualities. I treat people well and as a result i'm well liked. I've always had an ability to influence people, but not in a forceful way.

Is it not possible to have morality in one aspect of your life and not another?

I seem to make a distinction between my professional and person lives... I have never cheated on my partner or past girlfriends and I don't lie to my friends or family.

Obviously, I keep this rather large secret from people close to me. But otherwise I am quite an honest person.

I wonder why that is...? Why do I think it's acceptable to cheat or lie in my professional life, but not in my personal life?

Most people probably have a picture in their heads of a cheater... someone who has no sense of right and wrong and will cheat or decieve in any situation where necessary. But this is not the case with me.

This is something that confuses me... Why do I think it's more acceptable to cheat in some situations - but not in others?

Starokan

Perhaps its simply the case that you draw a line at deceiving those closest to you. Perhaps that is something you cannot justify to yourself. Or it could be that you would care more what your family thought of you than your work colleagues which in my opinion is understandable.

The way i see it is, if you are getting by in work then happy days. Regardless of your profession you cannot be that bad at your job. No matter how well you are liked people will only cover so much for you.

You got your qualifications by cheating, some would say you dont deserve them , some would say you took the shorter path through the forest or some might say you showed initiative in getting there without study. Either way it is what it is. You have the qualification and the job, your not going to come clean with anyone so as i posted earlier from now on become the person you wish to be

strobe

'Cause it's easier...

(No big mystery necessary to explain it.)

Little Acorn

I wonder why that is...? Why do I think it's acceptable to cheat or lie in my professional life, but not in my personal life?

Growing up did you come from a family where education, profession or status of people were seen as hugely important?
Have you been brought up to believe that success in life is measured by how respectable your career status is, and is how you will be judged and respected by others around you?
It may not have been direct pressure from parents or relatives or even just friends/media, but might always have been a subtle thing that was there in the background that you picked up on.
Did you have any interest in your course or did you just choose it to look good to other people, or for the money and status attached to careers from it?
It seems that you were bored in your course etc., but still just couldn't handle the stigma of failing or doing poorly. This is why I think that you care a lot about what other people think of you professionally.
You are now in a very high paying job, and you say it's rewarding so you must be happy enough there, so everything seems to have worked out ok for you, apart from the fact that you feel like a fraudster.
Maybe you separate cheating in education/career from family/friends because in your mind your career, success and wealth is what you feel defines you to others as a person, and defines how much respect and admiration you get from others in life.
These might be just hugely important things for you.

I could be completely wrong in all of the above, it's just I know another person who is like how I described, purely because they believe it is how their intelligence and social status is judged by others, and they care a lot about how they are perceived in these areas. So if they can't do, they cheat.

Did you really cheat that much though? I mean in written exams you couldn't have had more than a few very short notes scribbled somewhere[could you??], so you must have still known most of the stuff by yourself to do well in the exams.

Zombrex

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

It started when I was preparing for my leaving cert mocks and i've been cheating in exams ever since - and i've never been caught!

In my experience once a person has been caught and has to face the consequences they regret the whole thing.

So it is a bit difficult to take seriously someone who says they are fine with it but who has never been caught. This is probably just cognitive dissonance.

ShiftCtrl08

Starokan wrote: »

No matter how well you are liked people will only cover so much for you.

This is true, but in my experience when people like someone they are less inclined to think bad of them and hence also less suspicious. Certain people can even be prepared to turn a blind eye to things if it means maintaining a good relationship.

... this begs the question, is popularity more important then integrity..? And is cheating or decieving someone always a bad thing if you are doing so for the greater good?

strobe wrote: »

'Cause it's easier...

(No big mystery necessary to explain it.)

Usually, but not always... i've gone to great lengths sometimes in order to cheat.

Little Acorn wrote: »

Growing up did you come from a family where education, profession or status of people were seen as hugely important?
Have you been brought up to believe that success in life is measured by how respectable your career status is, and is how you will be judged and respected by others around you?
It may not have been direct pressure from parents or relatives or even just friends/media, but might always have been a subtle thing that was there in the background that you picked up on.
Did you have any interest in your course or did you just choose it to look good to other people, or for the money and status attached to careers from it?
It seems that you were bored in your course etc., but still just couldn't handle the stigma of failing or doing poorly. This is why I think that you care a lot about what other people think of you professionally.
You are now in a very high paying job, and you say it's rewarding so you must be happy enough there, so everything seems to have worked out ok for you, apart from the fact that you feel like a fraudster.
Maybe you separate cheating in education/career from family/friends because in your mind your career, success and wealth is what you feel defines you to others as a person, and defines how much respect and admiration you get from others in life.
These might be just hugely important things for you.

I could be completely wrong in all of the above, it's just I know another person who is like how I described, purely because they believe it is how their intelligence and social status is judged by others, and they care a lot about how they are perceived in these areas. So if they can't do, they cheat.

Did you really cheat that much though? I mean in written exams you couldn't have had more than a few very short notes scribbled somewhere[could you??], so you must have still known most of the stuff by yourself to do well in the exams.

Status? Not really, no. I like having money, but it doesn't rule my being. I actually enjoy the simple things in life, altho most people probably wouldn't guess it at first glance. lol

I picked my profession for purely practical reasons... I knew it gave me the best possible route to success. I don't feel passionately about what I do, but I like the interesting people I meet and the places I go.

But, if I cheat to look better professionally and gain respect... why not cheat or lie to my friends for the same reasons? Maybe I see work as a game, a game that I need to win in order to survive in life - if that means cheating... then I cheat!?

So is cheating/lying/decieving acceptable if it's a means for survival? Kill or be killed... so to speak?

ps. I've done alot worse then merely hiding some short scribbled notes. It started off like that, but gradually became considerably more sophisticated, especially in college with access to greater resources.

But i'm not going to discuss methods, as it might inspire others or glorify my actions - which is really not the point of this discussion.

Wicknight wrote: »

In my experience once a person has been caught and has to face the consequences they regret the whole thing.

So it is a bit difficult to take seriously someone who says they are fine with it but who has never been caught. This is probably just cognitive dissonance.

So, you could say cheating (and getting caught) is one of life's great lessons. BUT, if you happen to be more talented at it then others you fail to learn that important lesson?

Young children have been known to instinctively lie or cheat (without any coaching) if they think it might be of some benefit to them. This suggests that these are not merely learned behaviours - but personality traits or human characteristics.

If cheating is considered so morally reprehensible, why are some people born with such great aptitude in this area? lol Surely it serves some useful purpose that's not considered negative?

Is there some way that I (or anyone else) could use what are basically innate skills in a more positive way?

Is there a context in which cheating/deception is considered not only acceptable but necessary?

7Sins

I got bored after the first few lines, just sounds like the rest of us :rolleyes:

ShiftCtrl08

7Sins wrote: »

I got bored after the first few lines, just sounds like the rest of us :rolleyes:

Care to elaborate a little...? What "sounds like the rest of us"?

... I apologise for boring you. Talking about it is not as exciting as doing it! (as is indeed true for most things in life...)

Zombrex

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

Young children have been known to instinctively lie or cheat (without any coaching) if they think it might be of some benefit to them. This suggests that these are not merely learned behaviours - but personality traits or human characteristics.

True, cheating in children has been linked to intelligence (the less naturally intelligent the child is the more likely they are to cheat or disregard moral instruction, such as don't steal that cookie).

This would suggest that a tendency to cheat may be an evolutionary response to lacking in natural intelligence, a way to circumvent normal advancement.

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

If cheating is considered so morally reprehensible, why are some people born with such great aptitude in this area? lol Surely it serves some useful purpose that's not considered negative?

Again this can be explained with evolution. There are evolutionary reasons why we would view someone who lies or cheats in a negative fashion. Being unable to trust some damages social interaction, introducing extra levels of scrutiny that slow and hold up communication. It is normal for most societies to view lying and cheating negatively for these reasons.

There are also evolutionary reasons why some would do it anyway, particularly if the link between intelligence and cheating is accurate. Finding outside ways to excel (or appear to excel) in areas that the person does not have innate talent can serve the person well.

There is of course a limit, which is normally up to the point where the person is caught. This is why it is difficult to take anyone that seriously until they have been caught and see the other side, the social exclusion side, of lying or cheating.

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

Is there some way that I (or anyone else) could use what are basically innate skills in a more positive way?

I'm not sure what skill exactly you possess. It is possible that you have simply been lucky so far.

ShiftCtrl08

Wicknight wrote: »

True, cheating in children has been linked to intelligence (the less naturally intelligent the child is the more likely they are to cheat or disregard moral instruction, such as don't steal that cookie).

This would suggest that a tendency to cheat may be an evolutionary response to lacking in natural intelligence, a way to circumvent normal advancement.

Or perhaps the child that is perceived as lacking in natural intelligence, is in fact simply displaying a different kind of intelligence as they are not motivated or stimulated by the subject matter or methods used?

Wicknight wrote: »

Again this can be explained with evolution. There are evolutionary reasons why we would view someone who lies or cheats in a negative fashion. Being unable to trust some damages social interaction, introducing extra levels of scrutiny that slow and hold up communication. It is normal for most societies to view lying and cheating negatively for these reasons.

There are also evolutionary reasons why some would do it anyway, particularly if the link between intelligence and cheating is accurate. Finding outside ways to excel (or appear to excel) in areas that the person does not have innate talent can serve the person well.

There is of course a limit, which is normally up to the point where the person is caught. This is why it is difficult to take anyone that seriously until they have been caught and see the other side, the social exclusion side, of lying or cheating.

Maybe it suits certain sections of society to view cheating or any form of deception in a negative way?

For example, you have suggested that cheating may be a person's response to a lack of natural intelligence... but maybe reacting to cheating in a negative manner is the response of certain individuals who don't possess the same level of ability in the art of deception?

If you or I were lacking in the ability to cheat/deceive... what better way to neutralise this threat then to make it socially undersirable?

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not sure what skill exactly you possess. It is possible that you have simply been lucky so far.

Deception, manipulation, simulation, slight of hand etc... call it whatever you want really. I know from experience that everybody possesses these skills in different degrees.

I'm not convinced you can explain my success purely through luck. It plays a part of course, but that's true of most situations in life.

Some individuals which society may consider to be of high moral integrity, are in fact just people who discovered quite early in life that they lacked the necessary ability to cheat or deceive others.. (i've witnessed this throughout my life)

What is the primary motivation for not wanting to cheat..? Is it morality/integrity? Or the potential consequences? Or perhaps it's a lack confidence in one's ability to succeed using that strategy?

Have you considered that a higher percentage of people in society might consider cheating if they actually possessed greater ability in this area?




BTW - I'm merely trying to play devil's advocate here with a view to stimulating interesting debate. I'm not necessarily suggesting that all of these points are the opinions I hold.

looksee

In reply to most of the above thread, if society approved of cheating it would not be cheating. Please don't do the devil's advocate thing, either you have opinions or you don't. To claim devil's advocate is just to give yourself an excuse to put forward arguments that don't hold any water.

And the remark about stimulating debate goes right back to the first reply I made to this thread.

You also haven't told us at any stage exactly how you did cheat? Was it just the obvious notes up your sleeve stuff, or did you really come up with something that needed ingenuity and imagination? I am still inclined to think that this thread has more to do with imagination and creativity than reality.

ShiftCtrl08

looksee wrote: »

In reply to most of the above thread, if society approved of cheating it would not be cheating. Please don't do the devil's advocate thing, either you have opinions or you don't. To claim devil's advocate is just to give yourself an excuse to put forward arguments that don't hold any water.

And the remark about stimulating debate goes right back to the first reply I made to this thread.

You also haven't told us at any stage exactly how you did cheat? Was it just the obvious notes up your sleeve stuff, or did you really come up with something that needed ingenuity and imagination? I am still inclined to think that this thread has more to do with imagination and creativity than reality.

Exactly. I'm suggesting that perhaps it suits certain elements of society for it to be considered "cheating" and hence a bad thing. Rather then just another strategy or method to achieve something!

I don't see why playing devil's advocate is such a problem? This thread isn't purely about my story or experiences. The intention of this thread is also to address the wider issues connected with cheating and deception.

Just because i'm not taking ownership over certain points doesn't mean those points don't have merit... try addressing the points made, not the person making them!

As the OP, it's my intention to introduce many different angles to this topic, so it's not really important who said what tbh...

I have addressed the issue of my methods in an earlier post. I'm not inclined to take seriously the comments of someone who neglects to read the thread in it's entirety before commenting... but i'll make allowances for the fact that you may have missed that part!

Here is the quote:

ps. I've done alot worse then merely hiding some short scribbled notes. It started off like that, but gradually became considerably more sophisticated, especially in college with access to greater resources.

But i'm not going to discuss methods, as it might inspire others or glorify my actions - which is really not the point of this discussion.

Also... If as you suggest, you don't believe the scenario in question - that's your problem. It's not my goal or ambition with this thread, to convince you or anyone else of the validity of my story... like I said it's not JUST about me.

Treat it as a purely hypothetical scenario if you must... either way I feel there is merit in discussing the issues which it creates.

crusifixio2000

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

So, what do people think? I would be very interested to get opinions from people on this issue...

If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying!..You must know that if you haven't.

Life is not always about the most intelligent stays on the top, people are created in different ways with different talents. so you mustn't be very intelligent to get what you want. so if cheating is the case to achieve it, then I suggest that you cheat again and again. its a way of life!

Note: Never get caught(clever)
If you re a christian, its not a sin (God will understand)

lace

In terms of "womanizers" or men in relationships cheating - it's an evolutionary thing. Men spreading their seeds as far and wide as possible to that their genes can carry on etc etc.

gargleblaster

Laziness
Dishonesty
Lack of integrity
Lack of character
Poor upbringing

I could go on but that's enough really.

AudreyHepburn

I personally was never a cheater. I am terrible at hiding things (good and bad) so I would never have gotten away with it and more importantly I don't believe in being dishonest in aspect of my life.

When I achieve something I like to know that I did so honestly and that I am entitled to my sucess, whatever it might be.

But thats me and we are all different.

I think people cheat in various different ways and for different reasons.

Some might feel that they just won't get anywhere otherwise, others do it for the rush, others because they are too lazy to make the effort and so on.

In terms of cheating in relationships it might that the person is missing something or feeling lonely or is doing it out of spite etc.

I don't think there is one clear cut reason for cheating of any sort.

triggermortis

gargleblaster wrote: »

Laziness
Dishonesty
Lack of integrity
Lack of character
Poor upbringing

I could go on but that's enough really.

what (s)he said...

Hellm0

Dude if you make as much as a doctor and no one is the wiser then morality really doesn't enter into things. Do what you want and take the world for all you can get, if you're operating from any other point of view then you are just cheating yourself.

davidgrn

You mention above that cheating is not just about you, but this post is. You seem to take a lot of pride in having the personal characteristics that enable you to do what you do and you don't seem to show any remorse or guilt for doing it.

I don't think you posted this thread to find out why you do it, in fact you seem to have a good knowledge of why you do things you do. You did it because you wanted to boast about something you may not have been able to say publicly before.

It is a dog-eat-dog world out there and you have done what you wanted because you wanted to have the money you get from "doing" the job you do.
But I have to believe that one day you'll be found out and you'll get your just desserts. And I don't mean apple pie and cream.

Tayla

ShiftCtrl08 wrote: »

I know i've got no right to be where I am in life (morally or academically)

Although i'm going away from your main point this sentence really stood out to me and I wanted to comment on it.

First of all while we should all be encouraged to do as well as we possibly can in our studies, there are some people who will naturally be brighter and those who do not have to study, there will also be those who study study study and barely get an above average score.

Say a naturally intelligent person scores really really high with no effort and then an averagely intelligent person scores averagely and it is a job where although your exams prove your intelligence, what you actually learned won't really be that important to your job (not in the case of a doctor or anything obviously )......then tell me WHY would someone deserve it more than you just because they're naturally more smart? IMO they won't.

It's like in X Factor and you have a brilliant singer and a tone deaf singer and the brilliant singer will think they want it more......just because they have the ability doesn't mean that their dream is any more valid than the other persons dream, yea their chances of succeeding will be higher but do they deserve to be successful more than the other person? I don't think so..

Like I said it was slightly OT but what's done is done, you are obviously capable of doing your job so don't be thinking to yourself that you've got no right to be where you are in life!!

looksee

Tayla wrote: »

Although i'm going away from your main point this sentence really stood out to me and I wanted to comment on it.

First of all while we should all be encouraged to do as well as we possibly can in our studies, there are some people who will naturally be brighter and those who do not have to study, there will also be those who study study study and barely get an above average score.

Say a naturally intelligent person scores really really high with no effort and then an averagely intelligent person scores averagely and it is a job where although your exams prove your intelligence, what you actually learned won't really be that important to your job (not in the case of a doctor or anything obviously )......then tell me WHY would someone deserve it more than you just because they're naturally more smart? IMO they won't.

It's like in X Factor and you have a brilliant singer and a tone deaf singer and the brilliant singer will think they want it more......just because they have the ability doesn't mean that their dream is any more valid than the other persons dream, yea their chances of succeeding will be higher but do they deserve to be successful more than the other person? I don't think so..
Like I said it was slightly OT but what's done is done, you are obviously capable of doing your job so don't be thinking to yourself that you've got no right to be where you are in life!!

That seems like an extraordinarily woolly argument! 'Deserving' doesn't come into the discussion in terms of being successful. You either are or you are not. A better singer will be more successful than someone who can't sing, simply because people prefer to listen to someone who can sing, rather than someone who cannot. Just because someone dreams of being a singer does not mean that there should be some mysterious means of making it happen.

Similarly, while I do not necessarily agree that exams are always the best way of judging someone's intelligence, the person who gets the better results should get the job, if results/intelligence are the only criteria for the job.

If however someone has cheated to get those better results, then he has deprived someone else of the job, and may not have the knowledge and/or skills that he is claiming to have. In the OP's case he seems to be competent to do his job (by his own estimation, and remember he is not an honest person) but that does not mean he 'deserves' it.

maninasia

Interesting post. I think you may have "risk taker" genes and need the dopamine rush. As for cheating obviously the profession you chose has some leeway or you managed to move through the ladder quickly so lack of technical smarts could be made up by subordinates. I dont think you could easily cheat in science or engineering or medicine, well you can but it becomes very risky and dangerous overtime. In some jobs being able to lie or fool people to a certain degree is pretty useful.
In many jobs your education level is not so important, just ability on the job.
I suspect there was a lot of cheating even among the elite students in my class in college, some of whom got scholarships (stagerred toilet breaks during essay writing and outside help with thesis comes to mind) but I have no proof, I think a certain amount of cheating is very common as it helps give an edge over the competition.

Tayla

looksee wrote: »

That seems like an extraordinarily woolly argument! 'Deserving' doesn't come into the discussion in terms of being successful.

I don't know what you mean by 'woolly'? I brought 'deserving' into the discussion, I said it was slightly OT in my post. I don't really have an opinion on the cheating so I will stick to my original thoughts.

looksee wrote: »

A better singer will be more successful than someone who can't sing, simply because people prefer to listen to someone who can sing, rather than someone who cannot. Just because someone dreams of being a singer does not mean that there should be some mysterious means of making it happen.

No but they do not deserve it more and similarly think about it in terms of looks, would someone who is very attractive deserve to be a model more than someone who isn't? It doesn't matter if they would be more successful or not because people would prefer to look or listen to them, they still don't deserve it more.

looksee wrote: »

Similarly, while I do not necessarily agree that exams are always the best way of judging someone's intelligence, the person who gets the better results should get the job, if results/intelligence are the only criteria for the job.

Ok that's your opinion but I would consider that to be biased to people who naturally have more brains than other, social skills can be 10 times more important.

looksee wrote: »

If however someone has cheated to get those better results, then he has deprived someone else of the job, and may not have the knowledge and/or skills that he is claiming to have.

In some cases the person who cheated might have put in 10 times more effort than the person who didn't so I don't think they are depriving anyone of the job, if all things were equal and we were all of equal intelligence then maybe it would make sense but with the genetics lottery being the way it is I don't think it is fair.

looksee

So if we are going to ignore talents, skills and intelligence, what basis are you going to use to decide who gets which job, who gets to be a singer or a surgeon, a footballer or a fashion designer?

I am a teacher because I am good at my subject and can put it over to other people, should my local butcher have my job because that's what he really wants to do and deserves it? (Why does he deserve it?)

On your last point, I have students who put a great deal of effort into avoiding doing the work they have been given, it really would be easier just to do it. Is that what you mean by effort?

Tayla

I'm not saying to ignore skills etc. but if it was me ( I have been dealing with recruiting people myself recently) I think in most jobs, social skills go a hell of a lot further than academic skills.

Obviously a good singer or footballer will be more likely to succeed than someone not as naturally talented, if there is a job then they will be the first to get it but i'm just saying that they do not deserve it more than the other person.
Yes they might practice but I think in most cases people are born with the natural footballing or singing ability so it is nothing but pure luck.
Is someone who cheats not creating their own luck?

When I was in school I managed to pass all my exams with zero effort, a friend of mine studied non stop and didn't do quite as well as me, I definitely would not have deserved a job ahead of her.

saa

There is something seriously wrong with the poster here, because of the period of time he's lied, the extent of his cheating and efforts and his self assurance you said you did very well in the LC well not really.

What I'm trying to say is cheating is normal but there is a spectrum to most things but you show a great use of deceit and deception to cheat or commit fraud for personal gain to such an extent that it is extreme and you seem incapable of showing remorse, along with the arrogance and extremely of your case (not to mention trying to start a discussion about yourself rather than the issue!) I feel like you're ticking so many boxes on the sociopath checklist its worrying.


I know you're going to be defensive and offended the way you have lived your life is not normal and its not your fault if you have a personality disorder. lots of people do, I'm not saying you do for sure but this is just ridiculously heartless what you've posted.


I'm just trying to answer your question as to what led you to do all this. People walk over people, cheat or steal others opportunities to get somewhere but not all the time for all their achievements.

maninasia

I think the OP just wants the bring the subject out into the open, that society is not entirely fair and I guess he would like to hear other people's stories, I think it's an interesting and worthwhile topic for discussion.

It may not be moral but I'm not sure about not fair, because fairness is not something that really exists in the real world. Some are born into rich families, some born into poor ones. Some born with good looks, some not. Some born in a rich stable country, some born into a poor unstable country. In all these cases there are things you can do to counteract these disadvantages.

In this case I agree with Tayla, that sometimes you have to work the system to get ahead. We can see that in the case of many fraudulent asylum claims, while I don't think they should get away with it, I can definitely see why they do it and justify it to themselves.

The OP says he only engaged in this activity in one part of his life, we can take his word for that. It is true that in some or even all sectors of society 'nice guys finish last' or if not last not at the top. In addition, as I mentioned, certain businesses or positions may actively attract the type of person who can cheat their way through a situation when called for. We can all think of such examples in our own lives. Look at the heads of world famous banks or the politicians who govern us. They've been proven to actively cheat and defraud and yes they were the people at the top.

Panrich

OP, are you involved in Banking by any chance?

Poutbutton

You bored me by your 4th/5th remark..."now blah blah blah with a number of people working underme" enough said, that statement alone told me you ARE an uneducated person. The writing, never mind the sentiment, qualified as ignorance to me. So yeah the rest of your post just faded into that kind of negative/power in the wrong hands/ignorant imbecile kinda trend.
Karma is a concept to some, if it exists, it's gonna get you but then again maybe you'll just use/bluff/lie/scam whatever negative vibe you are used to throwing your exceptionally qualified deceitful mind/hand/SOUL at your way though life then you'll simply get on through the bills/red tape/etc and still die like the rest of us....but only you will know what faces you on the Darkside Atone my friend Atone!!!
c'mon, just do some good between your regular evil and you'll be grand

hinault

"Now, I have to say i'm not a dishonest person in other aspects of my life. In fact i'm quite the opposite... I like to think i'm quite an honest person, with a keen sense of morality. I know what I did was wrong - but I still did it"

So the OP is only dishonest when it comes to exam results? :rolleyes:
I somehow doubt that.

Fair play to him/her for posting the thread.
I sometimes wonder about the so called academic qualifications of plenty of people I know who are, for want of a better word, imbeciles.
One chap I know who claims to be a Fellow of a professional body.
How he ever got to achieve this distinction is beyond me.