Septic tank inspections

jmayo

Not sure if anyone else spotted the discussion about septic tank inspections on the 9pm News ?

I know there was some discussion of this last year regarding gormley bringing in such a scheme, but then it appeared to disappear off the radar.

Now it apepars to be back on the agenda and annual costs of up to couple of hundred euro has been suggested.

Do people think this is,
firstly just a method of keeping the EU off Ireland's back about water quality and avoiding fines,
secondly a revenue raising excercise to trap those who will not be caught in the water meter net, as the ones most likely to have septic tanks are those not using public water supplies that would have to be metered ?

Victor

Its not a revenue raising exercise. Its payment for service rendered. Just like paying a gas company to do you annual boiler inspection.

The government makes its money by having cheaper supplies of potable water.

jmayo

Victor wrote: »

Its not a revenue raising exercise. Its payment for service rendered. Just like paying a gas company to do you annual boiler inspection.

The government makes its money by having cheaper supplies of potable water.

Difference is the gas company, Bord Gais, is standalone entity even if publicly owned.

This same argument is raging about water charges and how the money being charged probably will go into local council coffers for use in areas not pertaining to water provision.

So will everyone with a septic tank have to pay the charge ?
There is probably no way that they can inspect evey septic tank so are you envisaging that you only pay when inspected ?

I think you are too trusting of our state authorities and government if you think this will not be seen as another revenue gathering excercise.

wazzoraybelle

The eu is on the verge of imposing fines on the irish government for not implementing some sort of inspection system.

I would think inspection of septic tanks would be annual. As for what the charge would be, who knows? but an inspection should take no more than 10 to 15 minutes, what are the odds that the charge will be 100 euro plus?

Unfortunately there are a lot of households that have mains water and septic tanks.

Personally I would think it's unfair to charge septic tank households for inspection as their taxes already go to run waste water treatment plants, maybe some sort of rebate should be put in place before such a charge is imposed.

Victor

jmayo wrote: »

Difference is the gas company, Bord Gais, is standalone entity even if publicly owned.

But there are other gas companies and lots of independent contractors. I don't think there has been any suggestion that the state will be doing hte septic tank inspections.

wazzoraybelle

From the rte news website today
A plan to introduce new charges for the registration and inspection of septic tanks, attached to homes and farm-buildings, will be discussed at talks between the Environment Minister and the IFA this morning.
Rural dwellers have been told they will have to pay for the cost of registering, inspecting and maintaining the tanks.
It has been speculated this could be in the region of €200 to €300 annually

200-300 euro!!!!
I can't see how a charge like that can be justified.
Cleaning a chimney costs between 40 and 75 euro and takes a lot longer than any septic tank inspection would, neither is it necessary to have a degree to do it, a 3 hour course would be enough, moreover a properly designed septic tank shouldn't need annual inspection, more like every 3 years. This charge is only for inspection so the usual maintenance costs are on top of this

Septic tank inspections should have been taking place for years, and its a very positive thing that they are finally going to be implemented but the charge needs to reflect the work involved.

Victor

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

properly designed

This is the problem.

wazzoraybelle

Victor wrote: »

This is the problem.

I agree, however it would only take one inspection to ascertain if its properly designed or not and a proper inspection interval can be implemented.

jmayo

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

From the rte news website today
A plan to introduce new charges for the registration and inspection of septic tanks, attached to homes and farm-buildings, will be discussed at talks between the Environment Minister and the IFA this morning.
Rural dwellers have been told they will have to pay for the cost of registering, inspecting and maintaining the tanks.
It has been speculated this could be in the region of €200 to €300 annually

200-300 euro!!!!

This is why I raised this discussion.
That is ridiculous amount of money for what could be at most half an hours work.
Or are they going to take samples of groundwater all around the area ?

That is why if they start charging that amount it just looks like a revenue gathering scheme.

People may view this as positive, but most hit by a 200/300 possible anuual charge for a few minutes work will view it as an unfair rip off and I know it is viewed by some who have private water supplies as a means to get them since they should not be paying water charges.

wazzoraybelle

from IFA website;

IFA National Environment & Rural Affairs Chairman Pat Farrell said he was strongly opposed to any new legislation on septic tanks that would impose additional costs on rural households, and that would prevent farm families from living in the countryside. “Minister Hogan said that local authorities will be able to work within existing resources to minimise the level of bureaucracy and he will bring forward a set of proposals that would limit the impact on rural dwellers.”

Solidchrome

So on top of the 280 euro a year for having our tank emptied we are going to be charged again for someone to look into the tank?

No wonder people are frustrated with this country and eu policy

Jehuty42

Solidchrome wrote: »

So on top of the 280 euro a year for having our tank emptied we are going to be charged again for someone to look into the tank?

No wonder people are frustrated with this country and eu policy

Well, you chose to live somewhere where you can't connect to the sewage system whose maintenance is paid for by the state, so it is your responsibility to make sure you don't harm the environment with your own sewage system, your septic tank.

axel rose

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Well, you chose to live somewhere where you can't connect to the sewage system whose maintenance is paid for by the state, so it is your responsibility to make sure you don't harm the environment with your own sewage system, your septic tank.

Where do you think the state get the money from? . The tax fairies?

Modern septic tank systems need to be maintained yearly, my contract costs nothing like the €€€ that the government is talking about.

Jehuty, why are you assuming that people aren't ensuring that their septic tanks are not safe?

NIMAN

If they had a proper sewerage system around my home I wouldn't need a septic tank.

And in a few years they are going to charge me for the pleasure of drinking their limescale ridden, cloudy water, which I have to spend extra money on filters to live with.

Solitaire

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

200-300 euro!!!!

Let's not forget the €3,000-€15,000 not-one-off charge that many of the affected will have to pay for shiny new septic tanks and related works!

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Well, you chose to live somewhere where you can't connect to the sewage system whose maintenance is paid for by the state, so it is your responsibility to make sure you don't harm the environment with your own sewage system, your septic tank.

I am tempted to chew you out for that utter sack of crap (and that's attacking the post, not the poster) but I will restrain myself nobly and simply point out that rich executives and trust-fund kiddies' holiday homes only account for the tiniest fraction of people living in the countryside. Most of us are people who could not afford to live closer to our town- or city-based jobs, or are families who have lived out here for generations. Many of us are poor, and made poorer by the cost of operating a vehicle, which is essential for survival let alone keeping a job down. Carbon taxes hit us ten times harder than city dwellers as we're so reliant on our own vehicles, due to the crap public transport in most of the country. We're stuck with wireless broadband, oil central heating and septic tanks against our will, because the Powers That Be think Ireland consists of Dublin 4 and refuse to sort out our laughable landlines, pipe in gas or put us on a sewerage scheme. And many of us will now be taxed for owning our own homes outright, regardless of the fact that they're our only worldly possession and aren't worth squat anyway.

So pray tell, how many of us will be able to afford the new property, carbon and septic tank taxes, let alone ten grand or more on a new septic tank?!? More relevant: what will our mighty rulers do to us when they realise we simply can't afford to pay them for any of it??

Ginger83

Solitaire wrote: »

Let's not forget the €3,000-€15,000 not-one-off charge that many of the affected will have to pay for shiny new septic tanks and related works!



I am tempted to chew you out for that utter sack of crap (and that's attacking the post, not the poster) but I will restrain myself nobly and simply point out that rich executives and trust-fund kiddies' holiday homes only account for the tiniest fraction of people living in the countryside. Most of us are people who could not afford to live closer to our town- or city-based jobs, or are families who have lived out here for generations. Many of us are poor, and made poorer by the cost of operating a vehicle, which is essential for survival let alone keeping a job down. Carbon taxes hit us ten times harder than city dwellers as we're so reliant on our own vehicles, due to the crap public transport in most of the country. We're stuck with wireless broadband, oil central heating and septic tanks against our will, because the Powers That Be think Ireland consists of Dublin 4 and refuse to sort out our laughable landlines, pipe in gas or put us on a sewerage scheme. And many of us will now be taxed for owning our own homes outright, regardless of the fact that they're our only worldly possession and aren't worth squat anyway.

So pray tell, how many of us will be able to afford the new property, carbon and septic tank taxes, let alone ten grand or more on a new septic tank?!? More relevant: what will our mighty rulers do to us when they realise we simply can't afford to pay them for any of it??

I couldn't have put it any better, well said man

wazzoraybelle

Solitaire wrote: »

Let's not forget the €3,000-€15,000 not-one-off charge that many of the affected will have to pay for shiny new septic tanks and related works!



I am tempted to chew you out for that utter sack of crap (and that's attacking the post, not the poster) but I will restrain myself nobly and simply point out that rich executives and trust-fund kiddies' holiday homes only account for the tiniest fraction of people living in the countryside. Most of us are people who could not afford to live closer to our town- or city-based jobs, or are families who have lived out here for generations. Many of us are poor, and made poorer by the cost of operating a vehicle, which is essential for survival let alone keeping a job down. Carbon taxes hit us ten times harder than city dwellers as we're so reliant on our own vehicles, due to the crap public transport in most of the country. We're stuck with wireless broadband, oil central heating and septic tanks against our will, because the Powers That Be think Ireland consists of Dublin 4 and refuse to sort out our laughable landlines, pipe in gas or put us on a sewerage scheme. And many of us will now be taxed for owning our own homes outright, regardless of the fact that they're our only worldly possession and aren't worth squat anyway.

So pray tell, how many of us will be able to afford the new property, carbon and septic tank taxes, let alone ten grand or more on a new septic tank?!? More relevant: what will our mighty rulers do to us when they realise we simply can't afford to pay them for any of it??

I live in the countryside and am just about to upgrade our system here, but I feel it's something that we need to do and should be the duty of anyone who has a stand alone system, not only to protect their own potable water source but also as a matter of public health.

My big beef with any charge would be that our collective taxes go to pay water and waste water facilities that we have no access to. I have no problem paying an annual or biannual charge to have my waste water system inspected as long as the charge reflects the real cost of the inspection, but at the same time I would like a refund of my taxes with respect to general potable water provision, as I have my own well, bored at my own cost, and also a refund with respect to waste water treatment, which I have also paid to install independent of the exchequer.
While I'm at it I have no waste collection service and I'm sure a portion of my taxes pay for that. I have no street lighting within 5 miles of my house, and have just been asked to pay the county council 6k as a development contribution to put an extension on my house, I don't think the council have spent 6k within a 5 mile radius of my house within the last 5 years, and if they have they certainly havn't got value for money.

Rant over!

Tigger

whats a development contribution and is it a normal thing?

xsao

This is nothing short of a scandal. A tax on people who supplied their own sewage and water systems without the help of anyone. Sure lets have inspection of septic tanks but no charge. It's like a Garda asking you for €100 before you blow into the breathalyser. What happens if the tank fails inspection and the householder cant afford the cost of replacing it?. It could cost up to €5000

Victor

xsao wrote: »

This is nothing short of a scandal. A tax on people who supplied their own sewage and water systems without the help of anyone. Sure lets have inspection of septic tanks but no charge. It's like a Garda asking you for €100 before you blow into the breathalyser. What happens if the tank fails inspection and the householder cant afford the cost of replacing it?. It could cost up to €5000

So do you think they should be able to continue to pollute? Like the situation in Galway where the whole city didn't have drinking water?

xsao

Victor wrote: »

So do you think they should be able to continue to pollute? Like the situation in Galway where the whole city didn't have drinking water?

Victor
You misunderstand me. I clearly said there should be inspection of septic tanks, but, the owners should not have to pay for it directly, just as those on public sewage systems do not have to pay directly for inspection or any remedial works as a result of the inspections. Everyone should be treated the same. The main reason for private septic tanks is that, for generations, governments and local authorities failed to provide these basic facilities to Rural Ireland.

tinofapples

Personally I would think it's unfair to charge septic tank households for inspection as their taxes already go to run waste water treatment plants, maybe some sort of rebate should be put in place before such a charge is imposed.

Yes, on top of that to obtain planning permission we like many others had to intsall the BnM Puraflo system at a cost of €5000. That on top of the roads & recreation charge. Recreation facilities ???

wazzoraybelle

Victor wrote: »

So do you think they should be able to continue to pollute? Like the situation in Galway where the whole city didn't have drinking water?

There is no excuse for not maintaining a septic tank, it's a public health issue which first and foremostly affects those that live closest to them i.e. the owners of the tanks.

Septic tank and sewage treatment systems need to be inspected and a maintainence schedule needs to be adhered to.

I imagine a large percentage of septic tanks will prove to be compromised or inadequate and will have to be replaced. I think the cost of any replacement, renovation or emptying of a septic tank should be borne by the householder. Also a system of fines should be developed to ensure that tanks are maintained and/or replaced in a timely fashion where necessary.

however it is only fair that the cost of any official inspection be taken from general taxation as is the case with municipal sewage treatment costs.

Can anyone really defend charging rural dwellers a septic tank charge while expecting their taxes to pay for the treatment of their urban cousin's poop??

jmayo

Victor wrote: »

So do you think they should be able to continue to pollute? Like the situation in Galway where the whole city didn't have drinking water?

Ah nice to see a bit of bandwagon jumping.

The scapegoats for the water pollution in Galway have been farmers and septic tank owners, but nothing about the council themselves pouring in untreated water ?

http://irishfarming.ie/2007/09/13/farmers-still-blamed-for-galway-water-pollution/

http://www.galwaynews.ie/9272-county-council-convicted-and-fined-water-pollution

http://www.galwaynews.ie/18574-nuig-identified-source-carraroe-water-pollution

Victor

jmayo wrote: »

Ah nice to see a bit of bandwagon jumping.

The scapegoats for the water pollution in Galway have been farmers and septic tank owners, but nothing about the council themselves pouring in untreated water ?

http://irishfarming.ie/2007/09/13/farmers-still-blamed-for-galway-water-pollution/

http://www.galwaynews.ie/9272-county-council-convicted-and-fined-water-pollution

http://www.galwaynews.ie/18574-nuig-identified-source-carraroe-water-pollution

If a proper testing regime was in palce, councils wouldn't get away with these things either.

xsao wrote: »

Victor
You misunderstand me. I clearly said there should be inspection of septic tanks, but, the owners should not have to pay for it directly, just as those on public sewage systems do not have to pay directly for inspection or any remedial works as a result of the inspections. Everyone should be treated the same. The main reason for private septic tanks is that, for generations, governments and local authorities failed to provide these basic facilities to Rural Ireland.

We have all been living on borrowed money. Things need to change, including better financing for councils. The councils can't afford such a testing regime and the testing at sewage works can be somewhat automated and as it is centralised is cost efficient.

Compare a technician taking samples at say, 10 rural properties per day or doing the same samples at 10 sewage works covering 100,000 people.

tinofapples wrote: »

Yes, on top of that to obtain planning permission we like many others had to intsall the BnM Puraflo system at a cost of €5000.

And the alternative would have been how much sewer: 100m? 500m? 1000m?

That on top of the roads & recreation charge. Recreation facilities ???

Rather than whinge about it, you might actually check the contribution scheme that your council has.

wazzoraybelle

Victor wrote: »

We have all been living on borrowed money. Things need to change, including better financing for councils. The councils can't afford such a testing regime and the testing at sewage works can be somewhat automated and as it is centralised is cost efficient.

Compare a technician taking samples at say, 10 rural properties per day or doing the same samples at 10 sewage works covering 100,000 people.

Thats not really an accurate comparison, general taxation looks after the testing, building and maintanence not only of the treatment works but also thousands of miles of sewer pipe which involved digging up roads and reinstating the pipes and also the roads and pavements that they lie under. It is a very expensive business and that burden has been shared by all taxpayers whether they have access to the infrastructure or not.

As septic tank systems need to be emptied periodically, why not license the businesses that do this to also assess the septic tanks but have this element subsidised by the exchequer.
It doesn't take a great amount of expertise to know if a tank is doing its job or not

xsao

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

There is no excuse for not maintaining a septic tank, it's a public health issue which first and foremostly affects those that live closest to them i.e. the owners of the tanks.

Septic tank and sewage treatment systems need to be inspected and a maintainence schedule needs to be adhered to.

I imagine a large percentage of septic tanks will prove to be compromised or inadequate and will have to be replaced. I think the cost of any replacement, renovation or emptying of a septic tank should be borne by the householder. Also a system of fines should be developed to ensure that tanks are maintained and/or replaced in a timely fashion where necessary.

however it is only fair that the cost of any official inspection be taken from general taxation as is the case with municipal sewage treatment costs.

Can anyone really defend charging rural dwellers a septic tank charge while expecting their taxes to pay for the treatment of their urban cousin's poop??

Municipal sewage treatment does the same for Urban dwellers as septic tanks do for Rural dwellers.Thefore general taxation should pay for all sewage teatment. Aternatively the same charge should be imposed on all households in the country, based on ability to pay.

xsao

Ginger83 wrote: »

I couldn't have put it any better, well said man

Ginger83 You are a star.

wazzoraybelle

From rte news:
There is to be no inspection charges for septic tanks under new plans being drawn up by Government, Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan has said.
However, from 2012 the owners of homes with septic tanks will have to pay a "very modest" registration charge when registering their tank with the authorities, according to Mr Hogan.
This fee would not have to be paid every year, but would have to be paid every few years, the minister's spokesman said.
However, she would not be drawn on what the fee would be or how often it would have to be paid.
From 2013, inspectors from local authorities will then come out and inspect tanks to ensure they comply with rules and standards to be agreed between Government and the Environmental Protection Agency.
If a tank does not meet the standards, it will be the responsibility of its owner to carry out work on it and cover the cost of that work, the minister said.
Ireland is under pressure from the European authorities to comply with a European Court of Justice ruling, by bringing in measures to improve ground water quality.

Right! how is this not an inspection fee? you register your septic tank every couple of years? come on, how stupid do they think we are!

TheMaster

This is similar to putting your car in for an NCT, we all know it's a good idea to test these things but get frustrated when it becomes a money making operation!!!!

Nermal

xsao wrote: »

Municipal sewage treatment does the same for Urban dwellers as septic tanks do for Rural dwellers.Thefore general taxation should pay for all sewage teatment.

It's much cheaper to treat sewage to the proper standard in urban areas. Economies of scale apply. So what you're asking for is another transfer to rural areas. You choose to live in the country, that's fine. But you should bear the cost of your decision.

wazzoraybelle

Nermal wrote: »

It's much cheaper to treat sewage to the proper standard in urban areas. Economies of scale apply. So what you're asking for is another transfer to rural areas. You choose to live in the country, that's fine. But you should bear the cost of your decision.

Do you know what you are talking about??
There is no cost to the taxpayer for sewage treatment in rural areas, because the homeowners pay for the installation and management of they're own septic systems. Rural dwellers do and always have borne the cost of their decision. What they also bear is the cost through taxation of urban sewage treatment, urban street lighting, potable water treatment and infrastructure for urban areas.

So maybe it's time the urban dweller bears the cost of their decision to live in such an area, pay for all of these services directly and stop being a burden on us country dwellers.

xsao

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

From rte news:
There is to be no inspection charges for septic tanks under new plans being drawn up by Government, Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan has said.
However, from 2012 the owners of homes with septic tanks will have to pay a "very modest" registration charge when registering their tank with the authorities, according to Mr Hogan.
This fee would not have to be paid every year, but would have to be paid every few years, the minister's spokesman said.
However, she would not be drawn on what the fee would be or how often it would have to be paid.
From 2013, inspectors from local authorities will then come out and inspect tanks to ensure they comply with rules and standards to be agreed between Government and the Environmental Protection Agency.
If a tank does not meet the standards, it will be the responsibility of its owner to carry out work on it and cover the cost of that work, the minister said.
Ireland is under pressure from the European authorities to comply with a European Court of Justice ruling, by bringing in measures to improve ground water quality.

Right! how is this not an inspection fee? you register your septic tank every couple of years? come on, how stupid do they think we are!

Wheither it is called a registration fee or an inspection fee or any other fancy name it is sill money out of the same pocket going to local authorities who have proven time and time again that they masters at wasting money.
What happens if a householder cannot afford to pay for remedial works if the tanks are found to be defective? eg an old age pensioner.

xsao

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

Do you know what you are talking about??
There is no cost to the taxpayer for sewage treatment in rural areas, because the homeowners pay for the installation and management of they're own septic systems. Rural dwellers do and always have borne the cost of their decision. What they also bear is the cost through taxation of urban sewage treatment, urban street lighting, potable water treatment and infrastructure for urban areas.

So maybe it's time the urban dweller bears the cost of their decision to live in such an area, pay for all of these services directly and stop being a burden on us country dwellers.

and so say all of us (rural dewllers)

Unrealistic

TheMaster wrote: »

This is similar to putting your car in for an NCT, we all know it's a good idea to test these things but get frustrated when it becomes a money making operation!!!!

Good comparison. Pushing it further it's the equivalent to a rural dweller having to pay to buy and maintain a car and then being asked to pay taxes for inspection of it while urban dwellers get public transport without even having to pay a fare.

Unrealistic

Nermal wrote: »

It's much cheaper to treat sewage to the proper standard in urban areas. Economies of scale apply. So what you're asking for is another transfer to rural areas. You choose to live in the country, that's fine. But you should bear the cost of your decision.

COST OF SEWERAGE PROVISION
1) Initial system set-up
RURAL DWELLER - paid by self (€5,000-€10,000)
URBAN DWELLER - paid by exchequer
2) Ongoing maintenance
RURAL DWELLER - paid by self (€200-€300 every year or two for pumping)
URBAN DWELLER - paid by exchequer
3) Capital maintenance
RURAL DWELLER - paid by self (€5,000-€10,000 after 20 years?)
URBAN DWELLER - paid by exchequer

So the rural dweller is paying between €350 and €800 per annum on average to provide himself with a sewerage service and the urban dweller pays zero directly and has his sewerage service funded by a tax on everyone, rural and urban. So in which direction is the transfer you are talking about really going? Not in the direction you seem to think.

Solidchrome

What hasnt been addressed is how Minister Phil Hogan expects home owners to pay, what could possibly be, thousands of euros in remedial work.

I cannot work due to illness and the wife begins an internship next week as finding a job is a joke over here in Co Mayo. I am trying to support a family on social welfare and have no savings. Where the hell does the Minister expect me to get thousands of euros from?? If I cant pay to have any remedial work done what then? Court? That would be a laugh because I cant afford to pay fines. Would I be forced to sell my home to pay for the fines? Over my dead body.

The government receives money from the EU to implement and maintain urban sewage schemes but we are expected to pay for all this ourselves- how is that fair? Why was there no mention of grants or finiancial aid?

I'm not only worried for myself but what of older people who cant afford repairs? There seems to have been no consideration at all about how this is going to be funded and maintained.

astrofool

Solidchrome wrote: »

What hasnt been addressed is how Minister Phil Hogan expects home owners to pay, what could possibly be, thousands of euros in remedial work.

I cannot work due to illness and the wife begins an internship next week as finding a job is a joke over here in Co Mayo. I am trying to support a family on social welfare and have no savings. Where the hell does the Minister expect me to get thousands of euros from?? If I cant pay to have any remedial work done what then? Court? That would be a laugh because I cant afford to pay fines. Would I be forced to sell my home to pay for the fines? Over my dead body.

The government receives money from the EU to implement and maintain urban sewage schemes but we are expected to pay for all this ourselves- how is that fair? Why was there no mention of grants or finiancial aid?

I'm not only worried for myself but what of older people who cant afford repairs? There seems to have been no consideration at all about how this is going to be funded and maintained.

Why should he be the state be paying for remedial work to stop your house from polluting the environment?

Now, the cost of the inspection has been set too high, but septic tanks in general do need to be inspected, as the state of a lot of them is very very bad.

How can you argue for the right to pollute the groundwater without inspections occurring, and being forced to bring your own sewage system up to code?

And, right, for the people arguing about the rural people and urban people bearing the burden of their own costs on the state, off you go, rural dwellers per head cost the state a lot more than urban dwellers, this information is freely available, but please don't make me paste the let me google that for you link.

Solitaire

No insult intended to anyone; just a plea for reason.

astrofool wrote: »

Why should he be the state be paying for remedial work to stop your house from polluting the environment?

Because no-one else will? And because putting in new ones would be cheaper than sticking a good 500,000 Irishmen in jail and their kids into care?

How many of the 400,000+ households and 1,000,000+ people affected will be able to pay thousands of Euro extra per annum on septic tank taxes, new carbon taxes, water taxes and property taxes on top of all their existing tax burdens? Very few could manage it without extraordinary financial burden, and will help recreate the unstable debt culture we're trying to get out of. But a good chunk of that 400,000+ will not have a single resident capable of paying for the new taxes, let alone a new septic tank. Is our wonderful government going to build all the jails and care homes we'd need to incarcerate perhaps a quarter of a million people - a good 6% of our entire population - for non-payment of taxes that will result from the changes to rural taxation about to happen courtesy of the EU?

These are very big numbers we're dealing with; if you middle-class townies (the poorer ones aren't nearly as deluded ) are thinking "jaesus it ain't our problem, them rich culchies should stop moaning about giving some of their savings to pay for their mess, its not like there's many people on them septic tanks really is there?" then you really need an almighty reality check. There's nearly a third of the country, well over a million people, stuck with this new charge. And we're all too aware of the damage that failed sewage systems can cause to land, nature and our own water supplies; far more than oblivious townies! We don't want to bury the issue; we simply don't have the money to pay to remedy it ourselves, and this septic tank business is madness unless our glorious leaders suddenly regain sanity and insulate the countless poor rural dwellers against financial ruination from trying to get their outdated systems back up to code,which they would do anyway if they had the money in the first place! So the "aw rich culchies don't want to pay their way" argument doesn't only fail to hold any water; its also a massive insult.

As for the ground water and nature issues: I doubt I live in the only area thus affected - far from it! - but I live quite near a fairly infamous company that has a million bribe-coated fingers performing anal sex with a million greedy, corrupt environmental agencies and assorted quangos. They have an environmental policy best described as "scorched earth" - primarily because that's all that is left after some highly toxic runoff leaks out of the processing plant and runs across nearby grass areas - or nearby farmland. And that's a near-daily occurrence. And the one thing you can guarantee is that the authorities will turn a blind eye to it all. This crap is sinking into the nearby land, water table and ground water, and the government says its okay and then turns around and demands ELODS OF EMONEYS!! (wonder of anyone remembers where that's from ) from all rural dwellers? I know the EU is to blame for that bit, but still, to anyone living in a similarly affected area this new inspections lark is the most ludicrously goppingly drooling insane thing in the history of the universe.

Unrealistic

astrofool wrote: »

Why should he be the state be paying for remedial work to stop your house from polluting the environment.

No argument there.

astrofool wrote: »

Now, the cost of the inspection has been set too high, but septic tanks in general do need to be inspected, as the state of a lot of them is very very bad.

Is it? How do you know? I think it's worth repeating a point raised earlier that in the case of the problem in Galway the year before last the most convincing explanation lays the blame at the door of private septic tanks, farming processes and local authority schemes but with local authorities being by far the biggest contributor.

astrofool wrote: »

How can you argue for the right to pollute the groundwater without inspections occurring, and being forced to bring your own sewage system up to code?

Logically those who can pay should pay. Those who can't, if we were to apply the harshest measures, would be fined to the point where they would lose their homes to pay for it but then the burden of housing them would likely fall on the state anyway so it might be a false economy.

astrofool wrote: »

And, right, for the people arguing about the rural people and urban people bearing the burden of their own costs on the state, off you go, rural dwellers per head cost the state a lot more than urban dwellers, this information is freely available, but please don't make me paste the let me google that for you link.

That's a very sanctimonious statement. I can understand the google link comment when someone is asking for the phone number of their local Pizza Hut but when you are making a blanket statement like the one you make about rural dwellers costing the state more than urban dwellers it would be good manners to link to the source if it is 'freely available'.

It would be interesting to see that definition of urban and rural dwellers in whatever source you are referring to and what is defined as state expenditure benefiting one or the other. For example, on the designation side would it just refer to the Northwest Region and lump Sligo, Letterkenny and countless other towns with sewerage systems into the 'rural' category or is it more nuanced? In terms of expenditure is it just social welfare payments or social welfare payments plus local authority expenditure that gets counted or does it take into account indirect transfers like locating large public sector employers in urban areas as an indirect economic subsidy to those areas?

wazzoraybelle

astrofool wrote: »

And, right, for the people arguing about the rural people and urban people bearing the burden of their own costs on the state, off you go, rural dwellers per head cost the state a lot more than urban dwellers, this information is freely available, but please don't make me paste the let me google that for you link.

I have been looking for a while now for some information relating to this and have found none relating to ireland, Neither have I found any info that suggests
any government spends more on rural dwellers than their urban counterparts.

I have read that in The US the government spent 4,800$ per capita on rural dwellers and 5,300$ on urban dwellers ( figures for the year 1997).

And reported on the BBC just a couple of days ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14780858

So if you could link to some freely available information I'd be very interested to read it.

questionmark?

Some people are likely to resist the inspections. What gives inspectors the right to enter private property? If the householder refuses permission to enter will they have to go to court to gain a warrent?
Is it illegal for a householder to say they live a natural life style and go in a hole in the ground and dont use any chemicals and use rain water to wash their clothes. I may sound a little out there but somebody is going to use that argument.

Victor

questionmark? wrote: »

Some people are likely to resist the inspections. What gives inspectors the right to enter private property? If the householder refuses permission to enter will they have to go to court to gain a warrent?

I'm sure that will be dealt with by the legislation that creates the charge.

dev100

How does a civil servant/engineer inspect a septic tank? Lift the cover peer in and tick okay in their inspection book? Whats lifting the lid goin to tell him or her ?

Victor

I imagine there are a few tests that can be done.

1. Dye test to check that the (at least some of) sewage from the property is actually going to the septic tank.
2. Test the ground around the septic tank for evidence of leakage, e.g coliform bacteria, chlorine, urea or phosphate tests.
3. Test the ground awat from the septic tank for evidence of leakage.
4. Check the basic design
5. Check the water table level.