Tricolour and the Church

Son Of A Vidic

My father was a former Irish Army man and he died last year (RIP). The Army gave him an impressive honour guard and a great send off. But the Tricolour was not allowed inside the church by the priests who performed the funeral service. I was led to believe that this was universal church policy and naturally we respected this.

I just saw footage of Brian Lenihan's funeral on RTE and noted his Tricolour draped coffin inside the church. To say I'm angry is an understatement, I also couldn't help but notice that the altar was overflowing with priests. Is this yet another example of church hypocrisy? Can I accuse the church of ingratiation itself to the high and mighty?

Is this no flag policy set at local or national level? Because the priests present at my Fathers funeral, were life long friends of his and it was clear they had no choice on the matter. I only learned of my Father's true intelligence activities (overseas) during WW2, from a senior officer after he died. I can safely say he gave a greater service to this nation and at greater risk than Mr. Lenhian ever did. So I am offended at the double standard shown by the church regarding the Tricolour.

later12

I think it's likely it was the policy of your local church or perhaps church diocese, not necessarily the policy everywhere.

Boulevardier

On a slightly similar point, my uncle was a retired cabinet minister (an FF one, even). His funeral did not have the president at it, nor did it have anything like the hype Lenihan's did. What is so special about him?

Exile 1798

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

My father was a former Irish Army man and he died last year (RIP). The Army gave him an impressive honour guard and a great send off. But the Tricolour was not allowed inside the church by the priests who performed the funeral service. I was led to believe that this was universal church policy and naturally we respected this.

I just saw footage of Brian Lenihan's funeral on RTE and noted his Tricolour draped coffin inside the church. To say I'm angry is an understatement, I also couldn't help but notice that the altar was overflowing with priests. Is this yet another example of church hypocrisy? Can I accuse the church of ingratiation itself to the high and mighty?

Is this no flag policy set at local or national level? Because the priests present at my Fathers funeral, were life long friends of his and it was clear they had no choice on the matter. I only learned of my Father's true intelligence activities (overseas) during WW2, from a senior officer after he died. I can safely say he gave a greater service to this nation and at greater risk than Mr. Lenhian ever did. So I am offended at the double standard shown by the church regarding the Tricolour.

Corvus, firstly condolences on the loss of your father.

I think issues such as flags in Church fall under the autonomy of local Bishops. To be clear, any higher directive could impose a policy on them, but without that its left within the remit of local Church authorities.

later12

Boulevardier wrote: »

On a slightly similar point, my uncle was a retired cabinet minister (an FF one, even). His funeral did not have the president at it, nor did it have anything like the hype Lenihan's did. What is so special about him?

All Fianna Failers are equal in the eyes of God! Though some people mean that in the negative sense...

I think it was the fact that he was a sitting deputy in the Dail, and was the MoF this time 4 months ago.

Zubeneschamali

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Is this yet another example of church hypocrisy?

Are you in the same diocese? Is the same bishop still in charge?

Essentially, there isn't a single Catholic church organization in Ireland, each diocese is a seperate organization answering directly to Rome.

donkey balls

Way back in the 80/90s when I was involved in the scouts anytime there was a parade on normally around Paddys day,The local scout groups would march and have there flags along with the Tricolour inside the local church.

Son Of A Vidic

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Are you in the same diocese? Is the same bishop still in charge?

Essentially, there isn't a single Catholic church organization in Ireland, each diocese is a seperate organization answering directly to Rome.

Take the confrontational and sarcastic tone of the first part of your post somewhere else please.

The second part of your post was constructive however.

KeithAFC

Why a church? I can understand why it wasn't brought in.

oppenheimer1

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Take the confrontational and sarcastic tone of the first part of your post somewhere else please.

The second part of your post was constructive however.

They were both valid questions imo. How do you hear tone in the written word by the way?

If you are upset by the actions of the church and want an explanation regrding your father, you need to ask the dioceses rather than the great and unholy posters of boards.ie.

Corsendonk

Boulevardier wrote: »

On a slightly similar point, my uncle was a retired cabinet minister (an FF one, even). His funeral did not have the president at it, nor did it have anything like the hype Lenihan's did. What is so special about him?

He died youngish and tragic, just watch the turn outs at local funerals, the younger you are the better the crowd and if you can throw in something more than old age as the cause of death the head count increases. Plus he was recent enough in office. Was your uncle still in office or a TD still at the time?

LordSutch

I am curious to know the connection between St Mochta's RC Church Porterstown, & his burial place at the Church of Ireland graveyard.
Maybe one of Brian's parents was C.O.I ?

Kalimah

That reminds me of my aunt's funeral back in 97. I have never been at a quicker funeral. A thirty second sermon and we were practically run out of the church. The reason? There was a 1st anniversary mass on directly afterward for Gerry McCabe and Veronica Guerin and all the big shots were due at the church.
One of the reasons I will not be having a Catholic funeral.
Hypocrisy and snobbery.

Son Of A Vidic

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

How do you hear tone in the written word by the way?

Do you think you somehow imparted new enlightening information to me when you said that? You know fine well what I meant when I used the expression 'Tone' in my post. But if you genuinely could not understand or grasp the use of this expression, then I suggest you read more. Perhaps this link might help you understand the use of the expression and its relevance. http://ezinearticles.com/?Article-Writing-Tips---The-Tone-of-Your-Article&id=1917096

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

you need to ask the dioceses rather than the great and unholy posters of boards.ie.

Well thankfully some posters here have been a help and to be honest I’ll decide for myself on where I seek my advice from if you don’t mind. As a rule I tend to only take direction from Moderators on this site.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

But the Tricolour was not allowed inside the church by the priests who performed the funeral service. I was led to believe that this was universal church policy and naturally we respected this.

Please pay particular attention to the underlined part of my comments. You obviously either did not understand this or did not read it. But to make it clear, the priests who celebrated the funeral mass said it was church policy not to allow flags on coffins. Note they did not use the term Parish or Diocesan but rather church.

So as I already mentioned in my post, we respected this at decision at the time. I also feel the priests concerned genuinely felt it was church policy. One priest was an former army Chaplin and a friend of my fathers for over 50 years. So I have no reason to suspect his motives and he was also genuinely disappointed that the flag could not come inside the church.

Slideshowbob

why was the cermony in a catholic church and his burial in a church of ireland??

PeterIanStaker

Your father deserved the flag on his coffin more than Lenihan, from what I have read, he rendered greater service to the nation, as well as serving overseas in the cause of peace.

Wolfe Tone

Boulevardier wrote: »

On a slightly similar point, my uncle was a retired cabinet minister (an FF one, even). His funeral did not have the president at it, nor did it have anything like the hype Lenihan's did. What is so special about him?

His death provides a rather special chance to wash away FF sins. In death Lenihan has been recast as some sort of hero struggling against the odds... I dare say the hope is that that will transfer to the FF party.

But I am quite jaded.

---

OP, I suggest asking in the Christianity forum or emailing a priest.

If I was in your shoes I would be livid also.

I found some stuff which may be of use, deals with the yank flag though..

Flags, Display of in Roman Catholic Churches (US)

Surprisingly to many, there are no regulations of any kind governing the display of flags in Roman Catholic Churches. Neither the Code of Canon law, nor the liturgical books of the Roman rite comment on this practice. As a result, the question of whether and how to display the American flag in a Catholic Church is left up to the judgment of the diocesan bishop, who in turn often delegates this to the discretion of the pastor.

The origin of the display of the American flag in many parishes in the United States appears [to] have its origins in the offering of prayers for those who served during the Second World War (1941-1945). At that time, many bishops and pastors provided a book of remembrance near the American flag, requesting prayers for loved ones -- especially those serving their country in the armed forces -- as a way of keeping before the attention of the faithful the needs of military families. This practice has since been confirmed in many places during the Korean, Viet Nam and Iraqi conflicts.

The Bishops´ Committee on the Liturgy has in the past encouraged pastors not to place the flag within the sanctuary itself, in order to reserve that space for the altar, the ambo, the presidential chair and the tabernacle. Instead, the suggestion has been made that the American flag be placed outside the sanctuary, or in the vestibule of the Church together with a book of prayer requests. It remains, however, for the diocesan bishop to determine regulations in this matter.

http://www.richmonddiocese.org/worship/docs/FlagsRCChurches.pdf

Check this out too:

STILLWATER, New York -- It was an unusually cold day in March 2007 when Florence Moll laid her husband to rest.
George Moll had died unexpectedly in his bed at age 75 after a life of service.
He served aboard the USS Allagash during the Korean War, worked 31 years for railroads and volunteered at veterans groups in Stillwater and Mechanicville for decades.
A dedicated parishioner of St. Peter's Roman Catholic Church, he lit a candle for an ill relative the evening before he died.
But his funeral service at St. Peter's -- his lifelong church -- upset his widow and family. Priests at the parish formerly allowed American flags to drape coffins in the entryway of the church before replacing them with cloth coverings known as palls. However, the new parish administrator at the time, the Rev. James Kane, strictly enforced a Catholic church rule that all non-Christian symbols, including flags, not rest on or near coffins in churches.
The veteran's casket left the church without an American flag around it, Florence Moll said. "They had to put the flag on in the freezing cold near the hearse," she said. "I thought it was a problem, and I was really disgusted."
The "church vs. American flag" issue, as one observer put it, has re-emerged two years later in neighboring Mechanicville, where Kane recently was assigned to The Church of St. Peter the Apostle and Assumption/St. Paul.
The city, about 5 miles from Saratoga National Cemetery in Stillwater, has a large population of veterans who are Catholic. Residents say coffins with American flags were permitted to enter and depart the church's vestibule in the past, and the change is emblematic of Kane's inflexible style of leadership.
"The flag is the symbol of the freedom we fight for," said Mary Lou Anatriello, a lifelong church member who buried her parents at St. Paul's. "This type of demand is hurtful."
In a short phone interview, Kane said he was simply following policy set by the Roman Catholic Church and Albany diocese. "I wish you God's peace," he said before hanging up.
Catholic funerals throughout the world follow a universal order, said Ken Goldfarb, spokesman for the Albany Catholic Diocese: "Only Christian symbols may rest on or be placed near the coffin during the funeral liturgy. Any other symbols, for example, national flags or flags or insignias of associations, have no place in the funeral liturgy."
He added, "If there was some other priest who may not have been aware of that, I can't speak to that. People are used to doing things one way and a new pastor comes in and does things differently. Sometimes it's hard for parishioners to accept the change."
Kane's strict interpretation of allowing only Christian symbols within the walls of the church has reportedly angered some funeral directors as well, but none would speak publicly about the situation, citing their working relationships with Kane.
Many Catholic churches permit coffins with flags into their vestibules or entryways, where members of the procession remove the flags prior to the service and replace them at the end.
When Marine Capt. John McKenna IV of Clifton Park was buried after being killed by a sniper in Iraq in 2006, Immaculate Heart of Mary in Brooklyn allowed the flag-draped coffin into the front area of the church before replacing it with a pall and crucifix, said his father, John McKenna III.
"It's the first I've heard of it," John McKenna III said, referring to the flag restrictions at the churches where Kane is pastor. "I don't understand the logic and I don't know what the priest is trying to accomplish."
Florence Moll and Anatriello believe Kane's policy lacks respect for veterans and the flag.
After graduating from Stillwater High School, George "Bill" Moll served in the Navy from 1950 to 1954. He belonged to the Earl J. Manning Post 490 Legion, the Lt. Fred H. Clark Post 91, Veterans of Lansingburgh and the Col. Elmer Ellsworth VFW Post 6328.
"My husband was a proud veteran, a really proud veteran," Florence Moll said.
"There are young men and women currently fighting for our freedom so we can worship as we please," Anatriello said. "This is not going to bring people into the church. It's going to push them away because people feel so strongly about the American flag.

http://www.military.com/news/article/August-2009/ny-church-bars-flags-on-vets-coffins.html?col=1186032325324

later12

Slideshowbob wrote: »

why was the cermony in a catholic church and his burial in a church of ireland??

LordSutch wrote: »

I am curious to know the connection between St Mochta's RC Church Porterstown, & his burial place at the Church of Ireland graveyard.
Maybe one of Brian's parents was C.O.I ?

It is not unusual for non CoI members to be buried in CoI graveyards.

In my local CoI graveyard I would estimate that at least 50% of those interred were not Church of Ireland. There would be some Quakers and Methodists in there too, but the majority of the remainder are Catholics (judging crudely by surnames and local knowledge).

The reason for this is that Catholic cemetaries traditionally filled up quicker than Church of Ireland cemetaries, particularly after independence. This was especially so in rapidly growing towns and cities where there was little opportunity for new cemetaries, or in vbery small villages like my own, where it was not worth the bother of creating a new cemetary.

Another reason why, historically, Catholics were buried in CoI graveyards (we are talking pre 1870) was because if an individual died as a pauper, it was the responsibility of the established church to bury that individual. Some families would have carried on the tradition of that place of burial for the remaining family members. However, it is the former reason, and not this one, that is most common for burying Catholics in non Catholic cemetaries.

KeithAFC

I don't know why people go into churches during funerals. I will be having mine outside and no church service. Just my fellow loyalists and friends.

oppenheimer1

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't know why people go into churches during funerals. I will be having mine outside and no church service. Just my fellow loyalists and friends.

Well done, I didn't think you'd be able to insert the so well known its boring fact you're a loyalist into a post in this thread, but you did. Congrats again:rolleyes:

KeithAFC

Isn't the Tri colour a political flag though oppen? So you can see why it wasn't allowed in. It is a church, not a political event.

Paparazzo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Isn't the Tri colour a political flag though oppen? So you can see why it wasn't allowed in. It is a church, not a political event.

It's the national flag. It's not about being political. It's about him being Irish

domkk

Was no problem with a union jack flag draped over my dads coffin in church.(non catholic)

Scofflaw

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't know why people go into churches during funerals. I will be having mine outside and no church service. Just my fellow loyalists and friends.

Keith, everyone knows you're a loyalist. Inserting it into your post like that is coming very close to trolling.

moderately,
Scofflaw

francis1978

KeithAFC wrote: »

Isn't the Tri colour a political flag though oppen? So you can see why it wasn't allowed in. It is a church, not a political event.

Keith, I'm not following your line of thinking on this point, the tricolour is the national flag of the republic (I assume youy knew this already).

Poccington

OP, it certainly seems an odd one.

I've been involved in a few military funerals both as bearer party, lining the route or just attending and I've never once seen a coffin without the tricolour in the church.

Son Of A Vidic

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

OP, I suggest asking in the Christianity forum or emailing a priest.

If I was in your shoes I would be livid also.

It was a toss of a coin between posting my question here or in the Christianity forum alright. However, I didn't want to open a can of worms with some 'holy joe' types.

bmaxi

later10 wrote: »

It is not unusual for non CoI members to be buried in CoI graveyards.

In my local CoI graveyard I would estimate that at least 50% of those interred were not Church of Ireland. There would be some Quakers and Methodists in there too, but the majority of the remainder are Catholics (judging crudely by surnames and local knowledge).

The reason for this is that Catholic cemetaries traditionally filled up quicker than Church of Ireland cemetaries, particularly after independence. This was especially so in rapidly growing towns and cities where there was little opportunity for new cemetaries, or in vbery small villages like my own, where it was not worth the bother of creating a new cemetary.

Another reason why, historically, Catholics were buried in CoI graveyards (we are talking pre 1870) was because if an individual died as a pauper, it was the responsibility of the established church to bury that individual. Some families would have carried on the tradition of that place of burial for the remaining family members. However, it is the former reason, and not this one, that is most common for burying Catholics in non Catholic cemetaries.

I agree. In my genealogical pursuits I have been in many C of I cemeteries and that is the case.
On a separate issue, you risk incurring the wrath of our C of I friends by referring to them as non-Catholics.

later12

Well spotted, I was actually thinking that as I typed the post, I forgot the Roman prefix.