Tipperary Venue - a dream or a reality ?

Delancey

Plenty of largely positive and uncritical coverage of the decision by An Bord Pleanala to give the go-ahead to a 500 room 5 Star hotel , Casino , Race Track , Golf Course , tacky-sounding replica White House , etc.
Just how realistic is this proposal ?
It has been stated many times that this country is suffering a serious over-supply of hotel rooms , it's been pointed out there are twice as many 5 Star hotels here as there are in Holland and there simply is not the business to justify these.
It seems that in the boom years every hotel just had to have a golf course yet we now see many of these in receivership , many golf clubs are struggling to keep going.

The racing board have said there are too many rececourses in Ireland.

Casino's are not even allowed under our present legislative framework.

The proposed location is the middle of nowhere.

Were it not for the obvious significant outlay incurred by the promoters of this project in getting it to this stage I would have been tempted to say the whole thing was a ' stalking horse ' to try and force the Government to legislate to permit casinos.

Will investors / bankers really be prepared to bankroll the 600 million Euro + cost given the negative sentiment around Hotels , Golf Courses and Ireland in general ?

RichardAnd

I share your sentiments. That project reeks of the Celtic Tiger so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it didn't come to pass. However, I wouldn't be quick to say it's a folly in itself.

The thing is, a clever business man can turn anything into a success if he knows what he's doing. On face value, the complex seems a white elephant but perhaps this isn't so. If, and I say if, the casino got going and was a proper Las Vegas kind of place then there could be big bucks to be made.

Time will tell but I'd say this could go the way of the U2 tower.

spank_inferno

+1 to the previous poster, & I hope they make a good go of it.
It would be a shame if it was half built only to be given up on.

It could work.... but I don't think it will.

As mentioned, it smells of Celtic Tiger hubris

KindOfIrish

This country never stop surprising me. An Bord Pleanala has just refused a waste incinerator in Cork wich would sustane thousands high quality manufacturing jobs in chemical and pharmaceutical industry and today they give the go-ahead to a casino with a very uncertain future

later12

KindOfIrish wrote: »

This country never stop surprising me. An Bord Pleanala has just refused a waste incinerator in Cork wich would sustane thousands high quality manufacturing jobs in chemical and pharmaceutical industry and today they give the go-ahead to a casino with a very uncertain future

While planners might look at location and infrastructure in assessing an application before it, it is not in the remit of planners to establish the financial viability of the enterprise or write an evaluation report in that sense.

Perhaps there were planning reasons why the incinerator was rejected.

In terms of infrastructure, I would have thought that Thurles was a pretty great choice actually - the major rail intersection on the island, centrally located, has the support of major international equestrian backers like nearby Coolmore Stud, and offers enormous scope for development.

washman3

KindOfIrish wrote: »

This country never stop surprising me. An Bord Pleanala has just refused a waste incinerator in Cork wich would sustane thousands high quality manufacturing jobs in chemical and pharmaceutical industry and today they give the go-ahead to a casino with a very uncertain future

Good comment BUT the planning permission was given for this "venture" was given last year in an under-the-table deal with this chancer,charleten,flybynight "politician" and the corrupt FF/GREEN coalition in return for his vote on the likes of NAMA and the austerity programme that will cripple tens of thousands of working (and non working) honest Irish people. The dogs on the street know this but most of us are not angry enough to speak out.

For the record: there are more golf courses in Ireland than children's playgrounds. Enough said.!!!

later12

washman3 wrote: »

For the record: there are more golf courses in Ireland than children's playgrounds. Enough said.!!!

No, there are more golf courses in Ireland than local authority playgrounds. That is quite different to what you suggested.

For the record, there are no local authority golfcourses in Ireland, but there are many local authority playgrounds.

careca11

it all looks good on paper , but really it has WHITE-ELEPHANT wrote all over it
would really like to know who is putting up the money for it

washman3

later10 wrote: »

No, there are more golf courses in Ireland than local authority playgrounds. That is quite different to what you suggested.

For the record, there are no local authority golfcourses in Ireland, but there are many local authority playgrounds.

what exactly is your point???
mine was: we are happy to build more golf courses,and pump huge amounts of taxpayers money and lotto money (for which it was never intended) into these ventures while basic and badly needed facilities like playgrounds are neglicted on non existant in many towns/villages.

later12

washman3 wrote: »

what exactly is your point???
mine was: we are happy to build more golf courses,and pump huge amounts of taxpayers money and lotto money (for which it was never intended) into these ventures

What do you mean these ventures?

There are no local authority golf clubs, and this Two Mile Borris enterprise is not a public venture.

dvpower

Why the opposition to this. It's a private sector punt, with no financial risk to the state, right?

If it is a flop, the only people that would lose will be the investors and at least some jobs would be created in the construction phase.

Is there a downside for Irish taxpayers? Are Irish banks involved in this?

frag420

dvpower wrote: »

Why the opposition to this. It's a private sector punt, with no financial risk to the state, right?

If it is a flop, the only people that would lose will be the investors and at least some jobs would be created in the construction phase.

Is there a downside for Irish taxpayers? Are Irish banks involved in this?

Were not most of our ghost estates, half finished shopping complexes and apt blocks not a private sector punt also yet we are all paying for them now.............

dvpower

frag420 wrote: »

Were not most of our ghost estates, half finished shopping complexes and apt blocks not a private sector punt also yet we are all paying for them now.............

... which is why I'm asking if Irish banks are involved. If the Irish taxpayer isn't exposed to any great extent, then why have a problem with it?

lastlaugh

Seems like a completely hairbrained idea to me.

I'm sure it will create jobs building the Whitehouse replica and whatever other whacky things they have dreamed up.

But who is going to actually come and stay in the 500 Bedroom 5 star Hotel?

Why would you go there rather than Vegas or somewhere sunnier at least?

I wonder how many people will need to visit the place weekly to keep it viable and pay the staff?

No chance.

tayto lover

It should be considered a monument to how the rich friends of the political elite look down their noses at the suffering of the poor. The poor who will pay for the past sins of the very same people. Rub it in boys.

STIG83

Sounds like this place will be a waste of money TBH. It def has white elephant written all over it.

Bullseye1

I would be great it if worked but I cannot see them having finance in place. Its incredible ABP granted permission.

PhatPiggins

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I would be great it if worked but I cannot see them having finance in place. Its incredible ABP granted permission.

Seeing as Quirke has reportedly spent €40M on it already I'd imagine having the money ready has long been accounted for.

I'd love to know how he's funding it(successful though he is) and/or will this go into NAMA if it goes tits up?

Laminations

later10 wrote: »

No, there are more golf courses in Ireland than local authority playgrounds. That is quite different to what you suggested.

For the record, there are no local authority golfcourses in Ireland, but there are many local authority playgrounds.

Just to correct you, because you are wrong, Silloge Public Golf course in Ballymun is managed by Dublin City Council, a local authority. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure if I researched it (like you should've done) I'd find more.

Laminations

later10 wrote: »

What do you mean these ventures?

There are no local authority golf clubs, and this Two Mile Borris enterprise is not a public venture.

See above

MadsL

It will never happen. Quirkey is playing Lowry for the fool he is. Quirkey will use this to push forward legislation (although his slot machine business does very well in Dublin - the blind eye sees nothing) to allow for a mega-casino to be build and operated in Dublin.

Lowry will be left dangling. "It'll bring jaaaaabss"

Nolanger

Apart from the Queen when was the last time anyone visited Tipperary? A casino won't change this.

the groutch

this plan is part of the legacy of FF cronyism, and was one of the main reasons Lowry repeated propped up the worst government in this nation's history.
If FG were to introduce legislation to facilitate this, they would be seen as complicit in this cronyism, not to mention rubber stamping the plaything of a hugely corrupt politician.
So, unless they are hellbent on committing political suicide, I can't see the legislation being passed to let this go ahead.

autonomy

I say jp mcmanus and aiden o'brien are heavily behind this fiasco!

Delancey

My own guess is that if anything gets built it will be on nothing like the scale envisaged , the location is too far away from significant centres of population and I cannot see the finance required being forthcoming , if foreign banks are happy to take a risk then so be it but I would be disgusted if state-supported Irish banks got involved.

Pete_Cavan

How did ABP ever approve this? Taking 110 hectares of prime agricultural land and c.220 hectares of commercial forestry, in an archaeologically sensitive area and diverting or culverting parts of the Derheen and Clover Rivers to create;

1. A 500 bedroom 5-star hotel when we already have on oversupply of 15000 hotel rooms with 34 hotels having been taken over by NAMA
2. A golf course when we already have about 450 with 29 either in receivership, being run by banks or in NAMA, including nearby courses in Thurles, Clonmel, Dundrum, Cashel and Kilkenny
3. A horse track and greyhound track despite the fact that there are 26 existing racecourses in Ireland representing the highest per capita ratio of racecourse numbers to population in the world. Similar figures apply to greyhound racing courses.
4. 2882sqm of retail ignoring the huge vacancy rates around the country

The inspector's recommendation to refuse permission but the Board went against this. What is the point in the report in the first place if the Board get to make it up as they go along. Hardly surprising the lack of accountability in decision making. I outline why they should not get a casino licence a few months ago, here.

washman3

later10 wrote: »

No, there are more golf courses in Ireland than local authority playgrounds. That is quite different to what you suggested.

For the record, there are no local authority golfcourses in Ireland, but there are many local authority playgrounds.

Well goes without saying there are no local authority golf courses,we all know that,and we certainly hope there never will be, but i can assure you that my local club has swallowed up plenty of taxpayers money,be it grants,Fas courses etc. No rules were broken,or i've absolutely nothing against golf,just using it as an example as to where the priorities of our society are.

washman3

dvpower wrote: »

Why the opposition to this. It's a private sector punt, with no financial risk to the state, right?

If it is a flop, the only people that would lose will be the investors and at least some jobs would be created in the construction phase.

Is there a downside for Irish taxpayers? Are Irish banks involved in this?

Dont think its really opposition to this project,not me for one. its the manner in which this shyster was able to obtain planning permission and the secret deals that went on behind closed doors before the collapse of the last Government. If it is a flop the investors will not lose,another scam like NAMA (possibly called BANAMA) will be introduced and the taxpayer will pick up the tab. These investors NEVER lose.
In truth it will never happen anyway,just pie in the sky. Real agenda here is to change legislation on casino laws.

washman3

Delancey wrote: »

My own guess is that if anything gets built it will be on nothing like the scale envisaged , the location is too far away from significant centres of population and I cannot see the finance required being forthcoming , if foreign banks are happy to take a risk then so be it but I would be disgusted if state-supported Irish banks got involved.

Quite true,something like this was considered in Manchester,near the airport but was ruled unfeasable. if it ever was to happen we could definately rule out the horse and dog tracks,maybe the hotel and casino,but who would come.
By the way the foreign banks already took a risk and lost(but they didnt really) we paid for it.!!:mad:

dvpower

washman3 wrote: »

If it is a flop the investors will not lose,another scam like NAMA (possibly called BANAMA) will be introduced and the taxpayer will pick up the tab. These investors NEVER lose.

Are Irish Banks putting up funding for this? I don't understand where the exposure to the taxpayer is.

washman3 wrote: »

Real agenda here is to change legislation on casino laws.

You think its just an elaborate trojen horse?

halkar

Legalize prostitution and drugs too along with this and watch billions pouring into exchequer

As much as it may sound like a smelly fish I welcome this. Ireland needs landmarks. If they can do in deserts of Nevada they can do in Tipp too :P

washman3

dvpower wrote: »

Are Irish Banks putting up funding for this? I don't understand where the exposure to the taxpayer is.


You think its just an elaborate trojen horse?

Doubt if Irish Banks will put up funding,but with the brass necks some of their "senior members" have i would'nt be surprised if they tried. there would be public outcry.
and there is absolutely no obvious,immediate exposure to the taxpayer. But everyone must remember this is exactly what we were told of the property bubble during the "celtic tiger" The housing estates,hotels and commercial buildings were all private projects,but when things when belly-up legislation was rapidly introduced so the taxpayer "shared the pain" with the developers and speculators.
Do i think its a trojan horse? most definately.!!

dvpower

washman3 wrote: »

Doubt if Irish Banks will put up funding,but with the brass necks some of their "senior members" have i would'nt be surprised if they tried. there would be public outcry.
and there is absolutely no obvious,immediate exposure to the taxpayer. But everyone must remember this is exactly what we were told of the property bubble during the "celtic tiger" The housing estates,hotels and commercial buildings were all private projects,but when things when belly-up legislation was rapidly introduced so the taxpayer "shared the pain" with the developers and speculators.
Do i think its a trojan horse? most definately.!!

Both of your fears can't be true.

If its a trojen horse, then these is no development in Tipp, so no possible exposure to the Irish taxpayer.

If its a real proposal then its not a trojan horse - or not one with trojans inside.

Delancey

It has all the hallmarks of a Trojan Horse proposal except that it has doubtless cost several millions at least to bring it to this stage - makes it a very expensive ploy to pressure the government.

later12

Delancey wrote: »

It has all the hallmarks of a Trojan Horse proposal except that it has doubtless cost several millions at least to bring it to this stage - makes it a very expensive ploy to pressure the government.

I think the figure being quoted is 40 million. I think the Government, who have had possession of the national ledger with its abundance of very lengthy numbers for almosty four months now, no longer consider 40 million euro to be of a pressing concern.

And what pressure in particular? The pressure to update gambling laws, arguably, but that needs to updated anyway. I cannot see what other pressure this could be said to draw on the Government.

Delancey

The promise of thousands of jobs is the pressure - construction jobs followed by more when/if the thing is actually up and running.

washman3

dvpower wrote: »

Both of your fears can't be true.

If its a trojen horse, then these is no development in Tipp, so no possible exposure to the Irish taxpayer.

If its a real proposal then its not a trojan horse - or not one with trojans inside.

i have no "fears" as such, just stating my opinion on both scenarios. by all means i would love to see as many jobs as possible on this project,both in its construction and when up and running.
(1) is it a trojan horse? my opinion,it is.
(2) is there exposure to taxpayer? my opinion,yes, if it goes belly up at any stage.

dvpower

washman3 wrote: »

i have no "fears" as such, just stating my opinion on both scenarios. by all means i would love to see as many jobs as possible on this project,both in its construction and when up and running.
(1) is it a trojan horse? my opinion,it is.
(2) is there exposure to taxpayer? my opinion,yes, if it goes belly up at any stage.

I'm saying it can't be both. If it's a trojan horse, then there is no development, so no bank loans, so no potential exposure to taxpayers.

You think it's a Trojan horse. So where is the exposure?

dan_d

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How did ABP ever approve this? Taking 110 hectares of prime agricultural land and c.220 hectares of commercial forestry, in an archaeologically sensitive area and diverting or culverting parts of the Derheen and Clover Rivers to create;

1. A 500 bedroom 5-star hotel when we already have on oversupply of 15000 hotel rooms with 34 hotels having been taken over by NAMA
2. A golf course when we already have about 450 with 29 either in receivership, being run by banks or in NAMA, including nearby courses in Thurles, Clonmel, Dundrum, Cashel and Kilkenny
3. A horse track and greyhound track despite the fact that there are 26 existing racecourses in Ireland representing the highest per capita ratio of racecourse numbers to population in the world. Similar figures apply to greyhound racing courses.
4. 2882sqm of retail ignoring the huge vacancy rates around the country

The inspector's recommendation to refuse permission but the Board went against this. What is the point in the report in the first place if the Board get to make it up as they go along. Hardly surprising the lack of accountability in decision making. I outline why they should not get a casino licence a few months ago, here.

The inspector also recommended that they refuse permission to build a new stadium at Lansdowne Road, and recommended that it be built down the road at the Glass Bottle site (bigger stadium could be built, contaminated ground not being used for anything else, etc,etc,etc) but it was also ignored.

I think that kind of thing should raise some serious questions about what's going on in ABP in the background. They chose to pay their inspectors to carry out lengthy and (presumably) expensive appeals processes and inspections - and then they ignore them where it suits them.

Whatever about money or jobs or anything else, the location is nuts.

later12

Delancey wrote: »

The promise of thousands of jobs is the pressure - construction jobs followed by more when/if the thing is actually up and running.

No - I'm asking pressure to do what? The only motivation I could see for the government would be to re-examine gambling law, which is well over-due. Apart from that, what pressure are you talking about in the quote below?

Delancey wrote:

It has all the hallmarks of a Trojan Horse proposal except that it has doubtless cost several millions at least to bring it to this stage - makes it a very expensive ploy to pressure the government.

washman3

dvpower wrote: »

I'm saying it can't be both. If it's a trojan horse, then there is no development, so no bank loans, so no potential exposure to taxpayers.

You think it's a Trojan horse. So where is the exposure?

Ok, its a trojan horse.!! happy now??
read all the rest of the treads on this topic and try to be a bit constructive rather than asking a silly question every 24 hrs. contribute.

dvpower

washman3 wrote: »

Ok, its a trojan horse.!! happy now??

Em, yeah. (Was that a very difficult question to answer?)

washman3 wrote: »

read all the rest of the treads on this topic and try to be a bit constructive rather than asking a silly question every 24 hrs. contribute.

I don't think the questions I've been asking were silly at all.
I'm interested in the possibly involvement of Irish banks (and the potential exposure for their owners [us] if the project fails), and, whether this is a substantial proposal or not. Pretty pertinent I think