Starting Problems...

GreeBo

hey all,

My 98 1.8 avensis is once again causing problems starting.

The latest trick is to fail to turnover properly, ie it turns over but the engine doesnt "catch" but then the starter stops turning as if the battery is dead.

The radio also looses all presets etc, exactly as if the battery is dead.
This could be happening repeatedly for 15 mins and then magically it will start first time as if nothing ever happened.

any ideas?
The battery is one I picked up in a scrap yard after the original one died so I dont "think" its that, surely if it was dead it would remain dead, especially after 10+ failed attempts of turning over the engine?

Cheers!

biko

Second hand batts can be fickle and it could be that.
Try a few times with a good battery from another car?
If that works buy a new one, you don't want to be stranded somewhere rural.

GreeBo

cheers
the battery was low on fluid so I topped it up the other day, would that make much of a difference?
since i topped it up I have driven Dublin - Dundalk and back and yet it still didnt start first time this morning.

I'm wondering if its the starter motor

Spunj

Sounds like a bad earth to me. There's a large draw of power when you are turning the starter.

The first thing I'd check would be the earth straps on the gearbox etc. Take off, clean with sandpaper/steel wool and reattach.

Worth a shot anyway.

GreeBo

Spunj wrote: »

Sounds like a bad earth to me. There's a large draw of power when you are turning the starter.

The first thing I'd check would be the earth straps on the gearbox etc. Take off, clean with sandpaper/steel wool and reattach.

Worth a shot anyway.

cool will try that alright, any how would I recognise them? Are they just "bare" copper straps or something?

The Muppet

I go for bad connection too, also check the connections on the battery.

Tea drinker

GreeBo wrote: »

cool will try that alright, any how would I recognise them? Are they just "bare" copper straps or something?

Look for a very heavy wire bolted on to the engine, maybe on on the body andmaybe on the box.
If you look at the battery, you will see the earth terminal and follow the leads off that to see where it goes. A bit of copper grease IMHO would do no harm on the connections of straps after they were cleaned. The rough winters we have been having along with salt on the roads can cause problems with electrics.

listermint

Battery in a scrapyard.....

Seriously?


Will you go but a new battery. christ man! My mates E36 had the same issue, sat in the garden for a week. new battery. Straight away problem solved.

Why would you bother with a second hand battery... beggars belief.

that battery is not holding the charge its ballixed

Spunj

It may be the battery, but the fact that when it's running you can do a long journey points towards some joint that's unable to handle the massive amps that come with turning the engine at start.

I have a classic in the garage at the minute and I keep the earth lead off and loose because it's easier to start it when I need to shift it about, rather than pushing it.

A couple of days ago I had to get it out to get another car in and I couldn't start it.. same symptoms. Spent an age tracing wires, checking fuses and eventually remembered that the earth wasn't tightened on. All the electrics worked but when the draw of current required to start it occurred, it just failed.

As said above, a bit of copper grease (or even vaseline) on the main contacts will keep the water out.

Before you buy yet another battery, check the fat wires that lead off the negative (-) terminal, you will most likely find some crusty connection. Also as also suggested, check the actual join from the battery connection.

The connections are never raw copper, usually thick wires covered in black shielding.

johnayo

Almost sure its the battery. Put a voltmeter across it and should have at least 12.4 to 12.5 volts.

Aero28

I've noticed the last few days when i go to start my car it stutters quite a bit. It struggles to start and it seems to get worse. Then last night after i came out of a shop and started it, an orange light has started to flash continuously on the dash. I've never seen that light appear on it before. It nearly looks like a "tap" icon. Anyone have any ideas what it could be.

I am gonna take it to the garage today to get it checked out, but was just looking for info on what it may be.

GreeBo

Spunj wrote: »

It may be the battery, but the fact that when it's running you can do a long journey points towards some joint that's unable to handle the massive amps that come with turning the engine at start.

I have a classic in the garage at the minute and I keep the earth lead off and loose because it's easier to start it when I need to shift it about, rather than pushing it.

A couple of days ago I had to get it out to get another car in and I couldn't start it.. same symptoms. Spent an age tracing wires, checking fuses and eventually remembered that the earth wasn't tightened on. All the electrics worked but when the draw of current required to start it occurred, it just failed.

As said above, a bit of copper grease (or even vaseline) on the main contacts will keep the water out.

Before you buy yet another battery, check the fat wires that lead off the negative (-) terminal, you will most likely find some crusty connection. Also as also suggested, check the actual join from the battery connection.

The connections are never raw copper, usually thick wires covered in black shielding.

Where is the earth on a battery? I see positive and negative
I did notice that one of the leads thats bolted to the side of the engine is covered in crap (the old battery was leaking so everything got a nice covering of that furry electrolyte ****e) so I will give that a go with the wire brush and see what happens!

@listermint : the car is limping along until I get a new one, €80 for a new battery for a couple of weeks isnt worth it imho.

no1beemerfan

The negative is the earth! I second (or third at this stage!) the earth straps.

They usually look like this and are easy enough to get at. http://www.minispares.com/Product.aspx?pid=37191

GreeBo

no1beemerfan wrote: »

The negative is the earth! I second (or third at this stage!) the earth straps.

Gurr stupid DC electricity

Will take a looksee this evening so!

Spunj

Well, how did your looksee go. Visible fluff on terminals is a pretty sure sign that you have a bad corrosion problem.

Clean it up and you will be back to normal. The wires are fat for a reason, they have to carry a lot of amperage. Big lumps of corrosion indicate that your fat wires are now conducting like little tiny wires; that's not enough to give your starter what it needs.

Take the battery terminals off and do a polishing job on them, then follow them down and see if there is any discolouration in where they connect to the body/gearbox/engine. It almost always occurs on the negative/earth side.

Just think of it like a blocked pipe, if the current is blocked it it time to clean it out.

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

Where is the earth on a battery? I see positive and negative
I did notice that one of the leads thats bolted to the side of the engine is covered in crap (the old battery was leaking so everything got a nice covering of that furry electrolyte ****e) so I will give that a go with the wire brush and see what happens!

@listermint : the car is limping along until I get a new one, €80 for a new battery for a couple of weeks isnt worth it imho.

My last was 60 your being over charged.


Try buying an battery for an M3 180 bills

GreeBo

Spunj wrote: »

Well, how did your looksee go. Visible fluff on terminals is a pretty sure sign that you have a bad corrosion problem.

Clean it up and you will be back to normal. The wires are fat for a reason, they have to carry a lot of amperage. Big lumps of corrosion indicate that your fat wires are now conducting like little tiny wires; that's not enough to give your starter what it needs.

Take the battery terminals off and do a polishing job on them, then follow them down and see if there is any discolouration in where they connect to the body/gearbox/engine. It almost always occurs on the negative/earth side.

Just think of it like a blocked pipe, if the current is blocked it it time to clean it out.

So I took out the battery, and cleaned up the terminals with a wire brush attachment on the cordless drill. Battery levels were a little high so I drained it down to between the min/max. Couldnt find any loose earths but one or two were a bit furry where the wires were exposed past the plastic covering so I tried to clean them as best I could.

Put it all back and was starting ok all day yesterday but now this morning dead as a dodo, didnt even turn over.

Question, is the battery supposed to be generating bubbles when its being charged from the alternator?
Also, with the engine idling connecting the battery dramatically reduces the rev's, is this normal?

trad

Have a look at your battery terminals. Toyota battery terminals are very flimsy and yours might have a hair line crack. Get a pair old fashioned terminals from your local motor factors and try them. Cheap fix if it works.

Spunj

Looking like a problem with the battery itself or an overcharging problem with your alternator.

You said "the old battery was leaking", this can point to overvolting, and the fact that it's happened before adds to the theory.

If you have a multimeter, check the voltage across the battery with the engine off, should be around 12.5-13ish. With engine running it should be 14.Xish. If it's reading in the 15-17 range then you need to get the charging system looked at.

Also you haven't been adding tap water to the battery? That's a no-no, has to be distilled water, not tap or spring water.

When you cleaned the earth terminal to the engine/gearbox, you removed the terminal and cleaned it on the body and didn't just rub over the top?

GreeBo

Yeah I cleaned it up as best as I could but still no dice.
Picked up a new battery for €55 and she is running as well as ever, so will keep an eye on that for a while and see what happens.

Cheers!

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah I cleaned it up as best as I could but still no dice.
Picked up a new battery for €55 and she is running as well as ever, so will keep an eye on that for a while and see what happens.

Cheers!

Great stuff,

When they are gone they are gone. I wouldnt use a second hand battery like i wouldnt use scrappy tyres. Its pointless trouble

Spunj

Yep, new battery will cover a lot of problems, make sure you get hold of a multimeter and confirm that you are not going to ruin it with a faulty alternator.

Bubbling and fur from a couple of batteries would make me take a close look at what voltage is incoming.

Good to see you are back in business, but you should check that out.