Michelle Mulherin wants to introduce national military service.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

According to this article anyway.

New Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin, who stressed she was speaking in a personal capacity, wants to introduce national military service for all young men
She warned against the unrealistic "culture of entitlement'' where people believe "if you are not working you are entitled to the same lifestyle as those who are employed".

So you want to cut social welfare. Well so do a lot of people. But introducing national military service? What is that supposed to achieve? The government will still have to pay to train, equip and support these people. What would we even do with the huge numbers of soldiers and sailors that this would forcibly recruit?

who the fug

1. Where are you going to house them
2. Is it fair on the poor
3. Do we need a bunch of thugs able to use firearms properly
4. What are they going to do all day

Who is this idiot woman, and please tell me she is not going to be a minister any time soon

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

who the fug wrote: »

Who is this idiot woman, and please tell me she is not going to be a minister any time soon

Given that shes a Mayo TD who was loyal to Kenny in the coup attempt, she'll probably be one eventually. God, I hate this county more by the day.

Sand

I think shes not too far wrong on the culture of entitlement: there does seem to be the assumption that social welfare needs not only act as a safety net whilst searching for work but also needs to be sufficient to act as career alternative that will support a certain lifestyle.

As for the military training...fairly pointless. What would we use them for? Are we able to pay for their training and equipment?

If anything the army ought to be disbanded with relevant useful functions rolled up into the Gardai, which should be expanded and properly equipped.

Monty Burnz

I'd have been happy to do miitary service personally. I know there are pros and cons, but it would be an interesting thing to do. It might knock some of the corners off the scobes who plan to never work a day in their lives too.

By the way, loads of other countries have national service in some shape or form (in some, like Germany, you can do 'civil' service or national service) and they don't have mobs of rampaging soldiers wandering around the place. That's a pretty silly objection to be honest.

The military training is not just to teach you how to fire a gun - it's to teach you to get up at a certian time, tidy your room, take care over how you dress, eat at regular times, and achieve goals that you are set or that you set yourself. Plenty of people don't need this kind of basic training (thanks to their parents), but plenty do (thanks to their parents).

Manach

People are free already to join the reserves to gain some experience of army life. The "culture of entitlement'' also seems to work both ways, in the government seems to be feel itself entitled to keep raising taxes and simultaneosly cutting services. Historically conscription was seen as a means to augment feelings of national solidarity in the wake of a defeat (as per France in 19thC). In the context of 21stC Ireland, it seems at best no more than a political gimmick and at worst the government seeking to obtain excess powers not found in the constitution.

norrie rugger

Why only young men?

Nodin

who the fug wrote: »

1. Where are you going to house them
2. Is it fair on the poor
3. Do we need a bunch of thugs able to use firearms properly
4. What are they going to do all day

Who are these "bunch of thugs" you're referring to?

Nodin

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

So you want to cut social welfare. Well so do a lot of people. But introducing national military service? What is that supposed to achieve? The government will still have to pay to train, equip and support these people. What would we even do with the huge numbers of soldiers and sailors that this would forcibly recruit?

Obviously the good TD, being an elected representative and thus a 'joined up thinker', will fund everything from the money tree she has invented and is growing in her little glasshouse out the back.

Solair

Well she obviously thinks that the defense forces are some kind of national baby sitting services.

What use would this be to anyone?

For the people involved, it's just a pain in the rear end that may have no connection whatsoever to what they want to do in their future years.
Forcing people into the army is also something that many people, including me, would consider a breech of human rights and something that's very anti-democratic in its nature.

For the defense forces, it means that the Government basically sees them as a baby-sitting service. They are lumbered with a vast number of people who do not want to be there and who will probably be an absolute drain on very limited resources and a distraction from what the defense forces are actually supposed to be doing!

For society at large, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this kind of thing has any impact. Look at the United States where military service has been compulsory and it has one of the highest rates of violent crime and murder in the developed world.

While many European countries had military service requirements, the vast majority of them are dropping them.

Then just from a pure cost of implementation point of view:

You will have the setup cost, the on going costs and then, this being Ireland, you can expect to spend about 10 years in the Supreme Court as there will immediately be constitutional and other types of challenges to it.

Then you can be 100% sure that everyone will be injured on duty and will sue the state to with an inch of its life for all sorts of things from deafness to stubbed toes.

Quite honestly, this proposal is just daft and reminiscent of something that you'd expect from a 1950s British Tory.

How about actually proposing something useful like introducing some kind of social integration / social development skills at second level school?
E.g. community work, civic education i.e. learning about how the country works (in theory), driving lessons etc.

People aren't stuck on the dole out of laziness, there's a massive shortage of jobs and a whole sector of the economy has disappeared i.e. the entire construction sector pretty much + all of its associated industries.

We need to urgently work on fixing the huge skill mismatch that has left us with to get this economy even partially going again.

Sticking unemployed people into the army is about as stupid an idea as you can possibly come up with from almost every perspective!

As for a sense of entitlement, I think most of us felt that we should have an entitlement to Government that is competent enough not to crash the economy and cause social and economic melt-down that is likely to drive a large % of the population overseas or into extreme poverty.

This 'blame the unemployed' attitude is pretty despicable in my opinion.

When the economy was functioning properly, we had a very low unemployment level with to me would indicate that most people are not lazy wasters, they're just finding themselves in a very bad situation where their skills don't match the opportunities in the economy thanks to gross mismanagement by the establishment i.e. Government (elected, and civil service) and the banks and regulation agencies.

If this is the attitude that Fine Gael have, I for one will never be voting for them again. They seem every bit as idiotic as Fianna Fail were!

joolsveer

Given that I am too old to be press ganged I feel I should be in favour of this proposal. Short sharp shock and things like that.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I can be a draft dodger... This'll be like the 60's all over again!

Bevvie

To be honest, I think a sort of service should be brought in, for males and females. It should be like Germany's in the sense that it would be they year people leave school(for example after the LC) and it should be a choice of military or social Service.

It would provide experience and could be used with a CV. Also it could be done to help the get the long term unemployed, and unemployed lone parents back to work. I know I'd gladly do Social Service to help get me job experience.

Nodin

Bevvie wrote: »

To be honest, I think a sort of service should be brought in, for males and females. It should be like Germany's in the sense that it would be they year people leave school(for example after the LC) and it should be a choice of military or social Service.

It would provide experience and could be used with a CV. Also it could be done to help the get the long term unemployed, and unemployed lone parents back to work. I know I'd gladly do Social Service to help get me job experience.

....and how does one solve the money problem.....?

mikemac

Why the military service just for young men?

If she sees benefits and Monty Burnz has listed several surely young women should be involved too

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I can be a draft dodger... This'll be like the 60's all over again!

Location Galway, that place is full of hippies and crusties

who the fug

Nodin wrote: »

Who are these "bunch of thugs" you're referring to?

Have a look at any daily paper, you will find plenty

Bevvie

Nodin wrote: »

....and how does one solve the money problem.....?

Well let me see, limiting the number of Children on OPF. What I mean is if you go on OPF with 1 child and then have another one while still on OPF, then they shouldn't be able to claim for that child / should receive a lower rate.

A woman living 2 doors down from us is on OPF and having kids left, right and centre and the SW doesn't see it as dodgy? Her fella is around off and on and I think there should be a point where the State says no.

I think an agency like the CSA in England should be set up to chase down maintenance from fathers. My ex is paying me the bare minimum in maintenance and i dunno what to do. He threatens that he won't see his kid if he pays more so I'm sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Splitting up Fás between different agencies. e.g. Training and Education should be given to the Dept. of Education and provided with co-operation with VEC's. The job vacancies and interview should be with the Local Employment Service.

Cracking down like England on JSB/JSA for example if you turn down too many job offers your dole gets cut. After a period of x years on the dole. A person should be on a reduced rate. If they say they aren't trained or educated enough to work in the jobs out there then give them the training.

Disability benefit should be like in England where rather than getting a form filled by a doctor and sent off, you are required to have a full exam by a doctor.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

mikemac wrote: »

Location Galway, that place is full of hippies and crusties

It'll be like San Francisco in 68'! Then we'll have to flee north of the border and hide out in Derry until we get a presidential pardon from Norris.

R P McMurphy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

It'll be like San Francisco in 68'! Then we'll have to flee north of the border and hide out in Derry until we get a presidential pardon from Norris.

I am going to flee to Algeria until all of this talk of military service blows over

RMD

Personally if they can do this well I think it's a great idea. Then again, if it just leads to groups of young men sitting around in barracks, it's a piss poor idea. They either do it well or don't do it at all.

R P McMurphy

RMD wrote: »

Personally if they can do this well I think it's a great idea. Then again, if it just leads to groups of young men sitting around in barracks, it's a piss poor idea. They either do it well or don't do it at all.

I could see a huge spike in insurance claims for people being injured during any training involved

Nodin

who the fug wrote: »

Have a look at any daily paper, you will find plenty

......a minority who will doubtless seek to skive out of any form of service. Hardly a realistic worry.

washman3

compulsory service.! great idea from that TD,really hope it becomes a runner. the German module works perfect,just 1 year. badly needed to bring some people back down to earth after the illusion that was the "celtic tiger" and a fine way to prepare our younger people for the hard knocks in life. i'm 30+ but would gladly volunteer for a year. bring it on.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

RMD wrote: »

Personally if they can do this well I think it's a great idea. Then again, if it just leads to groups of young men sitting around in barracks, it's a piss poor idea. They either do it well or don't do it at all.

And what else will they do? We don't have any wars that they are needed for.

who the fug

Nodin wrote: »

......a minority who will doubtless seek to skive out of any form of service. Hardly a realistic worry.

The idea that the world will be a better place with National Service is hardy derserving of a realistic reply.

Nodin

Bevvie wrote: »

Well let me see, limiting the number of Children on OPF. What I mean is if you go on OPF with 1 child and then have another one while still on OPF, then they shouldn't be able to claim for that child / should receive a lower rate..

And how much money would that provide?

Bevvie wrote: »

I think an agency like the CSA in England should be set up to chase down maintenance from fathers. My ex is paying me the bare minimum in maintenance and i dunno what to do. He threatens that he won't see his kid if he pays more so I'm sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place...

An organisation like the CSA would take money to run. Secondly, the CSA in Britain is far from an ideally run organisation, and actually costs more to run than it secures.

Bevvie wrote: »

Splitting up Fás between different agencies. e.g. Training and Education should be given to the Dept. of Education and provided with co-operation with VEC's. The job vacancies and interview should be with the Local Employment Service....

....shifting the furniture about the room, really.

Bevvie wrote: »

Cracking down like England on JSB/JSA for example if you turn down too many job offers your dole gets cut. After a period of x years on the dole. A person should be on a reduced rate. If they say they aren't trained or educated enough to work in the jobs out there then give them the training.
....

Given that the vast majority are not long term unemployed and that there are no jobs out there, its rather a bizarre one to bring up. Training already exists and more costs yet more money.

Bevvie wrote: »

Disability benefit should be like in England where rather than getting a form filled by a doctor and sent off, you are required to have a full exam by a doctor.

...which presumes dodgy ethics on the part of GP's and raises the spectre of Doctors employed directly by the state being under pressure to get numbers down. Neither would these Doctors give of their time for free.

gizmo555

Monty Burnz wrote: »

By the way, loads of other countries have national service in some shape or form (in some, like Germany, you can do 'civil' service or national service) and they don't have mobs of rampaging soldiers wandering around the place. That's a pretty silly objection to be honest.

Post-war conscription in Germany was there to meet a specific defence requirement in the Cold War era. It has been done away with now that the perceived threat from the old Eastern Bloc has gone. The Zivildienst, or compulsory community service, was put in place to deal with conscientious objectors - not to "knock the corners" off feckless young men.

Mulherrin's idea is preposterous, in that there is no defence requirement for the huge number of conscript soldiers it would involve, and doubly preposterous for her idea that it should only apply to males.

There is already an long-established and effective organisation for involving young people in their communities and teaching them solid principles of self-reliance - it's called the Scouts . . .

Monty Burnz

gizmo555 wrote: »

Post-war conscription in Germany was there to meet a specific defence requirement in the Cold War era. It has been done away with now that the perceived threat from the old Eastern Bloc has gone. The Zivildienst, or compulsory community service, was put in place to deal with conscientious objectors - not to "knock the corners" off feckless young men.

Right.That's an interesting bit of history, but it's all irrelevant. We are not talking about establishing a military force, we are talking about the side benefits that the opportunity to take part in something like that bestow on the individual. The question we should be asking is whether those benefits really exist, and is such a large undertaking worthwhile if they do?

gizmo555 wrote: »

Mulherrin's idea is preposterous, in that there is no defence requirement for the huge number of conscript soldiers it would involve, and doubly preposterous for her idea that it should only apply to males.

So what? There's no requirement for our whole army if you want to go down that road. You seem to be confusing the purpose of this proposal. I agree it should apply to both men and women of course.

gizmo555 wrote: »

There is already an long-established and effective organisation for involving young people in their communities and teaching them solid principles of self-reliance - it's called the Scouts . . .

It's not the same thing at all, is it? A 40 hour, compulsory working week inolving training and responsible work, versus (back in my day) an hour and a half of parading and games per week. One of the main benefits, as I see it, is getting the skobes who have never done anything difficult or worthwhile (and never will) out of that rut for a year. I'm sure a lot of them will fall back into it afterwards, but if enough of them can be rescued and enabled to have a more fulfilling life instead of sponging off the rest of us, the exercise will be worthwhile.

And of course, as with the German model, it makes sense that those with the skills and aptitude should have the option of civil service too.

HellFireClub

The most alarming thing about this article is that the proposal is only being pointed at MEN. It's 2011 ffs, if policy is to be applied, it should be applied to all, that's what equality is.

Icepick

HellFireClub wrote: »

The most alarming thing about this article is that the proposal is only being pointed at MEN. It's 2011 ffs, if policy is to be applied, it should be applied to all, that's what equality is.

I know what you mean, but unemployment is a much bigger problem for young males.
Of course, this is a stupid way of fixing that.

cyclopath2001

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

And what else will they do? We don't have any wars that they are needed for.

Hire them out to a superpower as 'cannon fodder'.

Monty Burnz

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Hire them out to a superpower as 'cannon fodder'.

There's a lot of point-missing going on here. The idea isn't to create an army, it's to create Irish citizens.

The debate should really about whether it actually would benefit the young people who went through such a program, and whether such a large undertaking would have enough benefits to make it worthwhile. Both points are debatable.

steelcityblues

I would like to ask Mulherin, would the sons and daughters of TDs be out on the frontline too in a crisis situation?

mikemac

steelcityblues wrote: »

I would like to ask Mulherin, would the sons and daughters of TDs be out on the frontline too in a crisis situation?

It'd be like the Vietnam protests all over again

The poor and unemployed got drafted

But when they go to draft the middle class college students, then the protests start.

Be the same here and lots getting exemptions

Sand

There's a lot of point-missing going on here. The idea isn't to create an army, it's to create Irish citizens.

Its not the armys job to create citizens. Its to fight and win wars.

Lumbering armies with moaning conscript soldiers that need to by babysat by professional volunteers who actually want to be there would be a morale killer for any army. People volunteer for the army because they want to serve in an army, rather than a large scale outreach programme for disadvantaged youth.

Its not to say that we dont need citizenship programmes, but thats something that should be instilled in primary and secondary schools which ought to teach children about the consitution, the institutions of the state, the practicalities of registering to vote and by extension instill civic pride and ownership.

Monty Burnz

Sand wrote: »

Its not the armys job to create citizens. Its to fight and win wars.

Then they haven't been doing their job, have they? Or perhaps the army's job is whatever the state decides it is?

Sand wrote: »

Lumbering armies with moaning conscript soldiers that need to by babysat by professional volunteers who actually want to be there would be a morale killer for any army. People volunteer for the army because they want to serve in an army, rather than a large scale outreach programme for disadvantaged youth.

Agghgh. Again, why assume that these people are integrated into the regular PDF? Would it not make more sense to create a new organisation with trainers from the PDF?

RMD

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

And what else will they do? We don't have any wars that they are needed for.

That's the thing, there's little they can do. Increase Irish involvement in Peace keeping or humanitarian projects is really the only solution but that's expensive and we don't have the resources for that. Hence, either do it right or don't do it at all. If we had the resources to do it properly I'd support it, but we don't so I don't think it's a good idea for now. In the future if we recover, I'd support.

Instilling a principle of discipline and hard work into the younger groups before they enter the business world I think would be a great idea, would help Ireland hugely in my opinion.

Sand

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Then they haven't been doing their job, have they? Or perhaps the army's job is whatever the state decides it is?

If we dont need to fight and win wars (and the evidence is we dont - or perhaps more accurately we are in a very peaceful neighbourhood, and if by some miracle someone does decide they dont like the cut of our jib theyll be bringing vastly more firepower to the party than we are willing to purchase) then we ought to disband the army and roll its functions up into the Gardai.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Agghgh. Again, why assume that these people are integrated into the regular PDF? Would it not make more sense to create a new organisation with trainers from the PDF?

For what purpose? Apart from the enduring myth that all young people could do with running around an assault course being roared at, what benefit would be gained that wouldnt be achieved at much lesser cost by simply instilling civic pride through education in primary and secondary school?

metrovelvet

Sand wrote: »

If we dont need to fight and win wars (and the evidence is we dont - or perhaps more accurately we are in a very peaceful neighbourhood, and if by some miracle someone does decide they dont like the cut of our jib theyll be bringing vastly more firepower to the party than we are willing to purchase) then we ought to disband the army and roll its functions up into the Gardai.



For what purpose? Apart from the enduring myth that all young people could do with running around an assault course being roared at, what benefit would be gained that wouldnt be achieved at much lesser cost by simply instilling civic pride through education in primary and secondary school?

Right. [And civic pride is not the same thing has hating the Brits adn the 800 years blah and boring blah -which is what has happenned when left to the dep of ed]. This lady sounds like an idiot.

Lockstep

I'm an army reservist so that's probably the closest thing to experiencing military service in Ireland.

I'd be dead against this, forcing unwilling and reluctant young people to serve would be a morale-killer.
The PDF and RDF are both under budget constraints as it is, funding compulsory military service would literally be impossible.

Monty Burnz

Sand wrote: »

For what purpose? Apart from the enduring myth that all young people could do with running around an assault course being roared at, what benefit would be gained that wouldnt be achieved at much lesser cost by simply instilling civic pride through education in primary and secondary school?

Ok, this I think is where the debate should really be. I think it does benefit people to be disciplined (god knows, I would have benefited from it) and to be given a purpose. The majority of people have that instilled by their parents, but a large minority do not. I can't think of a better way to get our underclass of their backsides and give them an opportunity to better themselves.

I'm open minded on whethe it is beneficial or not, and to what degree. I'll happily read the evidence.

nuac

Re Natonal Service

Served in FCA years ago in my formative years. Good experience and many happy times

Why only young men? - I know some young ladies who joined or would have liked to join the reserve. Might be extended to cover other forms of voluntary service.

Doubt if it can be afforded just now.

Paparazzo

norrie rugger wrote: »

Why only young men?

I think Michelle Mulherin thinks it's only men that can have kids!

THE dependency culture of "deadbeat dads" who father children and then expect the social welfare system to support them

It's not the fault of those women I see around the city center wearing pyjamas all day. It's just the men.

Nijmegen

The idea of national army service is stupid and laughable. First question, what do you need up to 55,000 - 60,000 (number of students who take the leaving cert each year) conscript soldiers for...?

Secondly, how do you pay for it? Training to be a soldier is a lot costlier than other forms of 'citizenship service'. Equipment, training, expending ammunition... It costs a lot! 1 artillery round costs over €1,000.

Thirdly, does it really 'knock the edges off' the wayward youngsters? The answer would be that no, not really. Some individuals it works for. Others simply revert to form within the constraints of the mass conscripted pool of enlisted men.

Particularly in an army that feels it has no real purpose - You spend a year training to go to war in full knowledge that you never will. Probably wouldn't even see the side of a UN mission, except if you're brought in to paint the vehicles going over with real soldiers.

Fourthly, women fought long and hard for the right to enlist in the Irish army, a wish they got in the early 1980's. So I hardly think making this a male only affair is a fair thing.

Perhaps some 'citizenship national service', a year spent working at home or abroad for the common good, could be considered - not to knock the edges off young people, but as a part of a wider idea of active citizenship.

But press ganging men into the army for no discernible reason other than some Victorian notion that it'll turn them into men of character is stupid.

Monty Burnz

Nijmegen wrote: »

The idea of national army service is stupid and laughable. First question, what do you need up to 55,000 - 60,000 (number of students who take the leaving cert each year) conscript soldiers for...?

Holy crap. All this has been mentioned in the thread already.

swordofislam

What does the dole have to do with national service. National service, high unemployment, culture of entitlement a series of non sequiters.

Monty Burnz

swordofislam wrote: »

What does the dole have to do with national service. National service, high unemployment, culture of entitlement a series of non sequiters.

So you think there's no connection between a culture of entitlement, and tens of thousands of people who feel entitled never to work a day in their whole lives?

Interesting.

HellFireClub

I think it's absolutely outrageous that this person can come out and openly say in 2011, that men should somehow be targetted for military conscription in this country. It's no wonder the country is in the state it is in with this stupid gombeen bitchy feminist mentality feeding into government policies.

Nijmegen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you think there's no connection between a culture of entitlement, and tens of thousands of people who feel entitled never to work a day in their whole lives?

Interesting.

There are 450,000 people unemployed today. There were less than 150,000 'long term unemployed' when the collapse happened. The additional 300,000 people are unemployed today because of the recession, not because they are lazy.

The dole queues would be higher if our graduates weren't emigrating elsewhere to find productive work - hardly scroungers.

Of the 150,000 you are including people who are disabled, for example, and those working seasonally alongside others. So the 'real' number of people you're looking to single out is less than 150,000.

Of that 150,000 the vast majority are beyond physical or age usefulness for military service.

So, where does this military service idea deal with the people who are currently on the dole because of recession?

later12

Nijmegen wrote: »

There are 450,000 people unemployed today. There were less than 150,000 'long term unemployed' when the collapse happened. The additional 300,000 people are unemployed today because of the recession, not because they are lazy.

Not to be too pedantic here, but I'm not completely familiar with the 150,000 figure, although I am sure it relates to the live register and not the QNHS. The QNHS measures unemployment and labour activity, the live register includes those who are in the workforce already.

According to the CSO, the lowest that long term unemployment went to was 22,000. At the time there was an overall unemployment (as measured by the QNHS) of about 70,000. Many of these non-long term unemployed would - quite literally - have been between jobs for a short period.

It is also important to note that of those 22,000 people long term unemployed, not all were on benefits. They may simply have been out of work and entitled to nothing (many were, during the boom)

Pete_Cavan

Bevvie wrote: »

It would provide experience and could be used with a CV. Also it could be done to help the get the long term unemployed, and unemployed lone parents back to work.

Is there any evidence to suggest that forcing someone against their will to spend substantial period of time doing something which they have absolutely no interest in and will most likely resent doing it, will improve their skills in a certain area?

That is the kind of logic that assumes forcing children to learn Irish for 14 years will make them fluent in it.