Prison in Lusk 1800s

Corsendonk

Anyone have a clue where the prison was located in Lusk in the 1800s? Came across a mention of it in the Dail debates how they had trialed chain gangs in the mid 1800s in Lusk. They were relooking at the idea in 1920s Ireland.

Beasty

Doesn't give location, but is mentioned here

The next stage was unique to the Irish system and involved a term in what was called an 'intermediate prison' There were two of these, one at Smithfield and the other at Lusk. Not all convicts were processed through this type of prison since entry was selective. For instance all agrarian offenders were barred from intermediate prisons. The aim here was to establish an environment in which the prisoner was 'assailed by temptations' and his conduct as a reformed character put on trial. Prisoners were usually employed outside of the prison and were sent to visit shops as a test of self-discipline. They were required to accumulate all but a small proportion of their earnings so that they would have a sizeable lump-sum when discharged. More than two-thirds used this to finance emigration, which was the intention behind the scheme. The authorities therefore saw the intermediate prison as a sort of 'finishing school'.

Seems almost an early type of "open" prison - maybe some of the characters around here could trace their ancestry back to this place;)

"finishing school" - reminds me of the film "School for Scoundrels":D

Fingalian

Try the OSI Historic Map Archive , very detailed maps of Lusk from the 1840's onwards. they show location of houses , schools, barracks , quarries , workhouses etc so I imagine a Prison would be easy to spot.

dan_d

There was an army baracks in Lusk...Remount House is part of what remains of it.Maybe the prison was in those barracks somewhere?

Funny coz I remember when we were kids we used to love playing in 'the Baracks'.That was our name for an overgrown section of forest and grass are with bits of walls scattered around and overgrown.We didn't realise that it was actually the remains of an army baraks.The are we referred to stretched from the HSE nursing home, over to the 2 houses beside Remount house.Course that was before the ring road was built, when that was all just fields.

bcmf

Gotta remember that Lusk back then was probably bigger and (obviously) totally different to the Lusk we know now.
Considering that Lusk was in in the townland of Balrothery back then the prison could be located anywhere.
As mentioned above unless you come across someone with a detailed knowledge an OS or another map of the area of the time is really the best way.

Corsendonk

bcmf wrote: »

Gotta remember that Lusk back then was probably bigger and (obviously) totally different to the Lusk we know now.
Considering that Lusk was in in the townland of Balrothery back then the prison could be located anywhere.
As mentioned above unless you come across someone with a detailed knowledge an OS or another map of the area of the time is really the best way.

I think it was the largest parish in Dublin at one time when Rush was part of the parish. Quite an impressive area in the 1800s, workhouse, army camp at Remount Farm(one of the 5 horse resupply camps for the Empire), Race Course I presume for the entertainment of the army and local gentry and a prison.

bcmf

Just glancing thru the online circa 1845 map of the area from Balrothery ,as we know now, to Lusk I see no mention of a prison. Maybe getting mixed up with Balrothery Workhouse located just north of Ballough??????
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721593,754655,7,7

Corsendonk

bcmf wrote: »

Just glancing thru the online circa 1845 map of the area from Balrothery ,as we know now, to Lusk I see no mention of a prison. Maybe getting mixed up with Balrothery Workhouse located just north of Ballough??????
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721593,754655,7,7

Yes just found this detailed piece describing the Crofton system. Lusk seemed to be at the cutting edge of prison studies at the time.

http://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cyclopaedia-10/Prisons-And-Prison-Discipline.html

The term of imprisonment is divided into three stages, and is passed in three different prisons: Mount-joy prison in Dublin, which has a capacity for about 500 convicts; Spike island, in the harbor of Queenstown, which will accommodate 700; and Lusk, about 12 m. from Dublin, with accommodations for 100. The first stage continues eight or nine months in separate imprisonment in a cellular prison. The treatment here is made penal by a very reduced dietary during the first four months, meat being entirely withheld, and by the absence of interesting employment during the first three months, the convicts being occupied chiefly in picking oakum. Much time is spent in receiving religious and secular instruction, and each convict is taught the entire scope of the system of imprisonment he is undergoing, and how much depends upon himself. The controlling feature of the second stage is the system of marks, by which the classification is governed and the abbreviation of the sentence determined. There are four classes in the second stage, and the time spent by a convict in each class is determined, within certain limits, by the number of marks gained. The maximum number to be attained is nine a month, thconduct, attention to school duties, and industry at work.

Skill is not rewarded by marks. The convict must gain 18 marks in the third class to pass to the second, 54 in the second for promotion to the first, and 108 in the first before entering the advanced class. Thus, as he can acquire only nine marks a month, he must spend at least 2 months in the first class, 6 in the second, and 12 in the first. The time passed in the advanced class depends upon the length of the sentence. It must be at least 13 months when the sentence is five years, 53 when it is 10, and 93 when it is 15 years. During the second stage the convicts are employed in association, chiefly on public works. They do not receive any portion of their earnings, but are allowed certain gratuities, which are received on release. The chief punishments are loss of marks, forfeiture of gratuities, withdrawal of privileges, and remanding to a lower class or to the cellular prison at Mountjoy. The most remarkable feature of the Crofton system is the third or "intermediate" stage, passed at Lusk. Here are no walls, or bars, or police, or armed watchmen. There is no physical restraint, no check on conversation, no prison garb. The prisoner is here in a condition of semi-freedom, a state of probation before liberation.

The convicts are employed in groups upon the farm under the supervision of a half dozen unarmed warders, who generally work with them. There is nothing to prevent escape by day or night; but the desire to escape has been manifested very rarely. The mark system is discontinued.

There are no punishments, but the convict may be remanded back to separate and solitary confinement at Mountjoy. The convicts hear frequent lectures, and attend the parish church in a body. The period of detention here varies with the length of the sentence; it is 6 months on a sentence of 5 years, 11 months on one of 10 years, and 16 months on one of 15 years. The object of the treatment is threefold: 1, by exposing the criminal to the ordinary temptations and trials of the world, to test his reform; 2, to afford a guarantee to the public that the reform is real, and that the convict may be trusted; 3, to supplement the previous discipline with a more natural training, and so by partial freedom to prepare the prisoner gradually for full liberty.

In 1874 Lusk contained 40 prisoners who cost an annual gross of £63 1s 9d.

Corsendonk

The Picking of Oakum refered to in the above post in Mountjoy explained.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/prisoner4099/historical-background/enlarge-oakum.htm

Picking oakum was one of the most common forms of hard labour in Victorian prisons. Prisoners were given quantities of old rope, which they had to untwist into many corkscrew strands. They then had to take these individual strands and unroll them, usually by rolling them on their knee using their hands until the mesh became loose.

The oakcum was then mixed with tar and used to calk the hulls of boats to make them as waterproof as possible.

Corsendonk

The Griffith Valuation may give us a clue were the prison was located.

Carawaystick

I heard a story before that the original OS didn't put forts or Gaols on their maps for general release, which might explain it not being on the historical maps

When was Oberstown set up and what was there before?

Corsendonk

I was asking about Remount Farm in the below thread in the WW1 Military forum and a boardsie posted two interesting links to the Fingal Indo, the second of which mentions that Remount Farm was a prison beforehand.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055729620

rbmd

The prison was situated at Remount Farm, which is the name of the Farm where horses were bred and trained by the British Army until 1920 when the IRA burned it down (Fingal Independent article).

The name Remount continues to this day in the 'Remount House' Station Road, Lusk, Co. Dublin (currently for sale). The Farm proper is now the site of Orlynn Park, a housing estate, and also the Ring Road, linking the Skerries Road, with Station Road/Rush Road, and then onto the Dublin Road. The Ring Road cuts the site of the original Remount Farm, and therefore the site of the Lusk Prison.

This information was gleaned from locals over a period of time, and may need futher verification, but I believe it is reliable.

Cardinal Richelieu

rbmd wrote: »

The prison was situated at Remount Farm, which is the name of the Farm where horses were bred and trained by the British Army until 1920 when the IRA burned it down (Fingal Independent article).

The name Remount continues to this day in the 'Remount House' Station Road, Lusk, Co. Dublin (currently for sale). The Farm proper is now the site of Orlynn Park, a housing estate, and also the Ring Road, linking the Skerries Road, with Station Road/Rush Road, and then onto the Dublin Road. The Ring Road cuts the site of the original Remount Farm, and therefore the site of the Lusk Prison.

This information was gleaned from locals over a period of time, and may need futher verification, but I believe it is reliable.

I came across an extract in the Folklore of Fingal audio tapes that for extra income, families in Rush would each have a section of the dunes that they would dig sand from to supply to the Army stables in Remount Farm. The attack on Remount Farm by the IRA must have caused serious damage to the local economy of Lusk and Rush.

Robert Hand

dan_d wrote: »

There was an army baracks in Lusk...Remount House is part of what remains of it.Maybe the prison was in those barracks somewhere?

Funny coz I remember when we were kids we used to love playing in 'the Baracks'.That was our name for an overgrown section of forest and grass are with bits of walls scattered around and overgrown.We didn't realise that it was actually the remains of an army baraks.The are we referred to stretched from the HSE nursing home, over to the 2 houses beside Remount house.Course that was before the ring road was built, when that was all just fields.

In my nearly 66 years living in Lusk this area was a sales yard for animals mainly cattle. I even attended a sale there as a nipper. Presently it is Murry's Pub car park and glasshouses. There is NO chance that it was an army barracks, not even a RIC barracks.
There is some chance that the Lusk Remount Depot was once a prison or army barracks. There's an even less chance that the old work house on the old Dublin/Belfast Rd near Balough was a prison at some point before being demolished.

The Hill Billy

That cattle yard used to belong to my great grandfather afaik. He lived just across the road in what I believe is known as the Doctor's House.