Critérium du Dauphiné - Stage 3 TT

GetWithIt

A pretty important stage given it covers the same route as the TdF Time Trial.

RobFowl

Nico off at 16:01 french time

GetWithIt

Any thoughts as to how Roche will go today?

My thoughts are that the route may actually suit him. It's quite lumpy with a lot of technical turns which he should handle well coming from a sprinting background.

tippx

TT has been Nicos weak point in previous races where he has not had the proper feel for it, lets see if training camp has had any improvement on his abilty,its def an area he needs to work at

lennymc

did i read somewhere that he only got a TT training bike this year (or did i completely imagine it)

niceonetom

lennymc wrote: »

did i read somewhere that he only got a TT training bike this year (or did i completely imagine it)

That rings a bell. That and hearing that he had bought himself (out of his own pocket) a powermeter. It doesn't inspire confidence does it? I suspect the French teams just don't really get time-trialling in the modern age. Perhaps they've never really recovered from those 8 seconds and are still refusing to believe that TTing is something that requires more than determination.

lennymc

niceonetom wrote: »

That rings a bell. That and hearing that he had bought himself (out of his own pocket) a powermeter. It doesn't inspire confidence does it? I suspect the French teams just don't really get time-trialling in the modern age. Perhaps they've never really recovered from those 8 seconds and are still refusing to believe that TTing is something that requires more than determination.

i do remember him saying he was getting a power meter for the first time this year. Didnt know he bought it himself tho!

amjon.

You'd think SRM would be falling over themselves to have a leader of a pro tour team using their product. Apparently they give their powermeters to the teams they sponsor for free.

niceonetom

amjon. wrote: »

You'd think SRM would be falling over themselves to have a leader of a pro tour team using their product. Apparently they give their powermeters to the teams they sponsor for free.

Well if a team already has a groupset sponsor they may well forbid their riders from using anyone else's cranks. I don't know though.

I think it's more of a mentality among some of the french teams. They seem to lag behind in terms of technology, training methodology and nutrition stuff. Everyone else is looking for marginal gains, they're still looking for the next Fignon.

Chips Lovell

lennymc wrote: »

did i read somewhere that he only got a TT training bike this year (or did i completely imagine it)

yeah, that's correct.

RobFowl

el tonto wrote: »

yeah, that's correct.

+1
Personally feel he's be far better off in a team like HTC/BMC/Garmin where attention to detail and technology seems a bit more advances.

Apparently AG2R still eat whatever food the hotels provide even during the tour !!

RobFowl

That said a/c Da

stephenj_roche Stephen Roche



Nicolas is doing a great time, almost catching his 2 min man

Chips Lovell

RobFowl wrote: »

+1
Personally feel he's be far better off in a team like HTC/BMC/Garmin where attention to detail and technology seems a bit more advances.

Apparently AG2R still eat whatever food the hotels provide even during the tour !!

I think he's doing OK where he is for the moment. If he gets picked up by a big team, I'd like to see him wait till it's certain he'd be their GC leader. If Wiggins doens't deliver this year, I could see him being a team leader at Sky.

GetWithIt

Riblon is doing a good TT (currently 4th) and Nico has said before that that's generally his guide for where he should be.

RobFowl

Looks like Evans just caught Nico

http://www.justin.tv/elm3ssigoaltv#/w/1308640880

dastardly00

not a good day in the saddle for Nico

2nd intermediate time-split (27.5km): Roche 77th @ 3:27 behind Wiggins

GetWithIt

Another shocking TT from Nico. Did he fall off the bike during the first section?

GetWithIt

start 171th parti at 16:01:00
chrono 1 15.0 km 90th at 00:01:51
chrono 2 27.5 km 79th at 00:03:27
arrivee 42.5 km 41th at 00:03:31

kilns

Not a great Time Trial from Roche. Although he did finish strong it seems, matching Wiggins' time in the final third and taking time off the others. Will be interested to see why he fell so far behind in the first sector.

he will drop a good bit down the GC now.

tippx

RobFowl wrote: »

+1
Personally feel he's be far better off in a team like HTC/BMC/Garmin where attention to detail and technology seems a bit more advances.

Apparently AG2R still eat whatever food the hotels provide even during the tour !!

And thats after they have to ride 7km back down the mountain to the hotel (in the rain ) because of shi* logistics from Ag2r in the most prestigous race in the world!!

dastardly00

Overall not a great TT from Nico (again).
He started off very slowly, losing 1min 51sec to Tony Martin after the 1st time split. His performance improved radically though in the 2nd and 3rd sections of the TT. He actually was faster than Wiggins in the 3rd section!
He finished 43rd, 3min 31sec behind Tony Martin.
Nico is now 16th in the GC, 3min 26sec behind the leader Wiggins. His teammates: Riblon, Peraud, Kadri have overlapped him and are now 8th, 13th and 14th respectively.

Daniel Martin finished 89th, 4min 51sec behind Tony Martin (overall: 118th, 13min 40sec behind).

Fantastic ride by Wiggins and he has a great chance of winning the race now.

kilns

I suppose he has sacrificed his time trialing to compete in the mountains, as he said he lost a good bit of weight for last years tour so he could

No major team will sign him as GC man if he cant perform in the TT's.

Ag2r seem to be strong enough this year so his own team leadership could be under threat.

But if he could somehow find a solution to his TT he would be a serious contender

RobFowl

dastardly00 wrote: »

Fantastic ride by Wiggins and he has a great chance of winning the race now.

Great ride all right but look at the profile of the last 3 stages.
If he's to win he'll have to ride better than he ever has before...

kilns

Dan Martin has said he has targeted one of the next three stages for a stage win so should be interesting to see how he goes when he does go for it

Gipo3

Seems Roche is going to give it a lash too.

dastardly00

RobFowl wrote: »

Great ride all right but look at the profile of the last 3 stages.
If he's to win he'll have to ride better than he ever has before...

yeah true. It's going to be very interesting indeed. The last 2 stages look extremely tough :eek:
Not only will Wiggins have to ride better than he ever has before, but his team will have to also. It was interesting today that a good few of team Sky performed very well in the TT. Boasson Hagen, Thomas, Uran were all in the top 20.
They might have less energy to help Wiggins in the coming days, although tomorrow is a flat stage and they can recover (there's also the possibilty that they did a very good reccie of the stage today and that's why Boasson Hagen et al performed so well).

JacksonHeightsOwn

Wiggo won't last in the big hills, he's a steady up them, but when the pace is lifted, he nearly always loses contact,

Was there ever a time in last years Tour when Wiggo would have been ahead of Roche in the hills?? I think not

I fear for Roche in that AG2r team, I really thought he would have benefitted from a move to Sky last year when there was murmorings, he'd never be as good as Wiggins at TT's, but under brailsfords tutelage he'd surely make a mark improvement

John.Icy

I think it's a decent enough ride. He matched, maybe was even faster than Wiggins in the last split. As for the start, it was poor, but Roche numerous times has admitted to troubles in early parts of rides, and only coming into his stride the more time went by.

If he can get anywhere near his superb climbing from the vuelta where he was arguably in the top 6 climbing wise most days, he will come in the top ten here at the Dauphine, as there a a good few guys he can leapfrog in the mountains.

ROK ON

el tonto wrote: »

I think he's doing OK where he is for the moment. If he gets picked up by a big team, I'd like to see him wait till it's certain he'd be their GC leader. If Wiggins doens't deliver this year, I could see him being a team leader at Sky.

WTF??? You mean Roche. Not a snowballs chance in all of hell.
Try G Thomas, EBH and that is before the talk of them signing Cav reappears this summer.

kilns

what about Sean Kelly/An Post upping the budget and signing Roche, Martin and Deignan

John.Icy

ROK ON wrote: »

Try G Thomas

Roche is head and shoulders above Thomas, not even close who would be a team leader out of those two IMO.

Thomas is grand for a few days of hard effort before he blows up and loses 10+mins on one stage. You need more from a team leader.

sy

Great win by Wiggins today. Should go down to the wire on Sunday and at least we will have an idea on who might be challenging Schleck and (hopefully not) Bertie in the Tour. Fancy Evans to shade it

Great chance of an Irish win in next few days. I think Nico will fancy Friday as the finish is not too steep and it should come down to a small group sprint. Dan Martin will be in his element on Saturday and Sunday so here's hoping

Hermy

I thought Tony Martin won today?

leftism

That was my first time to see Roche TT this year and i thought it was a bit disappointing considering all the talk last year of planning to do more TT training over the winter. The fact that he seemed quite capable of pacing himself off Evans when he was caught seems to suggest he is just not finding his race pace at all! Is this due to lack of training on the TT bike or some other factor?

His climbing has definitely become world class over the last 2-3 seasons but until his TT improves significantly i couldn't see him being a major GC contender or team leader on another pro team. Hope i'm proven completely wrong though...

niceonetom

Ok, so Nico didn't put in a great time today... but if anything we should see his performance as pretty promising.

The fact that he kept Evans in sight after he'd been passed by him means that he does have the legs. The horsepower is there. He just needs to learn how to use it effectively. Surely it's easier to learn technique and pacing (and maybe HTFU a little) than it is to find more watts from somewhere with so little time left before the tour.

Esroh

niceonetom wrote: »

Ok, so Nico didn't put in a great time today... but if anything we should see his performance as pretty promising.

The fact that he kept Evans in sight after he'd been passed by him means that he does have the legs. The horsepower is there. He just needs to learn how to use it effectively. Surely it's easier to learn technique and pacing (and maybe HTFU a little) than it is to find more watts from somewhere with so little time left before the tour.

Have to agree with you Tom.I think he may have felt the pressure today until he was caught.
Gadret in the Giro also may have heard of Riblons time would all be adding to whats expected. I have always felt he finds it hard to live up to his Surname when the chips are down

RobFowl

I see Roche as a potential top 10 TDF and podium prospect for the Vuelta. He's obviously very talented but doesn't win much. He climbs well but not as well as the climbers, sprints well but not at the top level and seems to read the finale poorly when in breaks.
I think his Da is taking on more of a mentor role now as that can only be a good thing.
For me I'd prefer to see him win stages of the tour rather than go for a top 10 finish.
That said it's easy to criticise from a distance and the comment above are in context of critiquing a top pro.

Gipo3

RobFowl wrote: »

He's obviously very talented but doesn't win much. He climbs well but not as well as the climbers, sprints well but not at the top level and seems to read the finale poorly when in breaks.

Jack of all trades, master of none!

corny

He can at least take some positives from the TT today. Keeping pace with Evans is not an easy thing to do.

Anyone know if Gadret plans to do the Tour this year? He obviously thinks he's better than Roche given what happened last year and i suspect, given the fine Giro he had, his team are probably coming around to the same opinion. Pressure is on Roche to really make an impact over the weekend. If he doesn't he'll be playing domestique in July.

Chips Lovell

He seemed disappointed with that time and there's obvious room for improvement there. There's a good few guys ahead of him in GC that he should be able to overtake in the mountains, which should put him back in the top ten. Not bad for a pre-tour preparation race. Nevertheless, I think the TT still needs more work.

RobFowl wrote: »

I see Roche as a potential top 10 TDF and podium prospect for the Vuelta. He's obviously very talented but doesn't win much....For me I'd prefer to see him win stages of the tour rather than go for a top 10 finish.

Van Den Broeck, who's two years older than Roche, only got his first professional win this week. I don't see anyone telling him to forget GC and ride for stages.

corny wrote: »

Anyone know if Gadret plans to do the Tour this year? He obviously thinks he's better than Roche given what happened last year and i suspect, given the fine Giro he had, his team are probably coming around to the same opinion. Pressure is on Roche to really make an impact over the weekend. If he doesn't he'll be playing domestique in July.

Gadret rode a good Giro last year too and Roche was still stronger than him in the Tour. As I said in another thread, Gadret can climb and that's about it. Roche is a more rounded rider. A high placing in a Giro that's been more skewed towards climbers than any other grand tour in recent years isn't a sign that he's going to start storming the Tour de France necessarily.

corny

el tonto wrote: »

Gadret rode a good Giro last year too and Roche was still stronger than him in the Tour. As I said in another thread, Gadret can climb and that's about it. Roche is a more rounded rider. A high placing in a Giro that's been more skewed towards climbers than any other grand tour in recent years isn't a sign that he's going to start storming the Tour de France necessarily.

Gadret finished 4th this year with a stage win, the first for his team at the Giro in 5 years. Last year he finished 13th and got nowhere near Nibali and Scarponi, this year he was hot on their heels. I know it was a climbers Giro but he's an improved rider.

The 2011 Tour will hardly penalise the climbers either. Thats where the time will be made by the looks of it. There's only one individual TT (which Roche hardly excelled at). I'm not saying Gadret is gonna necessarily push for a top 3 or even that he's a better rider just that he's thrown down the gauntlet and Roche has to respond. If he doesn't do it on the weekend they'll go with Gadret (if he's going of course).

niceonetom

I'm pretty sure that Gadret himself has said that if he goes to the tour it'll be as a domestique for Nico or Rinaldo.

How many riders are there in the world who could (or would want to) be team leader on back-to-back grand tours?

This whole idea that Gadret poses any threat to Nico in July is nonsense.

Spokes of Glory

RobFowl wrote: »

I see Roche as a potential top 10 TDF and podium prospect for the Vuelta. He's obviously very talented but doesn't win much. He climbs well but not as well as the climbers, sprints well but not at the top level and seems to read the finale poorly when in breaks.
I think his Da is taking on more of a mentor role now as that can only be a good thing.
For me I'd prefer to see him win stages of the tour rather than go for a top 10 finish.
That said it's easy to criticise from a distance and the comment above are in context of critiquing a top pro.

Yep I'd second that. Personally I feel he's wasting his time somehwat trying to be a grand tour competitor as he'll never be as consistent as the top climbers, and doesn't have the raw TT ability. In his first tour he was finishing regularly in the top 10 in sprints and stage finishes, and I thought with some experienced guidance he could have progressed to become an excellent classics and medium stage-race rider (Paris-Nice etc). As a tour contender he's top 10 material at best.

Spokes

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

This whole idea that Gadret poses any threat to Nico in July is nonsense.

Quoted for posterity.

Chips Lovell

corny wrote: »

Gadret finished 4th this year with a stage win, the first for his team at the Giro in 5 years. Last year he finished 13th and got nowhere near Nibali and Scarponi, this year he was hot on their heels. I know it was a climbers Giro but he's an improved rider.

The 2011 Tour will hardly penalise the climbers either. Thats where the time will be made by the looks of it. There's only one individual TT (which Roche hardly excelled at). I'm not saying Gadret is gonna necessarily push for a top 3 or even that he's a better rider just that he's thrown down the gauntlet and Roche has to respond. If he doesn't do it on the weekend they'll go with Gadret (if he's going of course).

This year's parcours favoured Gadret more than last years. That's what I'm trying to say. It was an unusually mountain-oriented Giro. And the Giro is usually more weighted to the climbers than the Tour. That's to say nothing of the fact that there aren't many riders these days capable of performing well in both the Giro and the Tour.

leftism

Its not that Nico doesn't have raw ability in the TT! Once Evans caught him yesterday, he demonstrates that he is capable of maintaining the power necessary to put in world class TT performances. But either a lack of training on the TT bike or a lack of mental toughness when working alone is hampering his progress in this discipline...

(I'm no expert but in my estimation: working crap on your own, then working great when pacing off a faster athlete = HTFU)

My problem is that at the end of last season, he identified the TT as being an area where much more training and preparation was needed. Yesterdays erratic performance tells me that he hasn't done the work on the TT bike (or he's soft in the head). If he wants to be a proper GC contender, then he really has to give the TT the attention it deserves!

El Tonto has already mentioned that Nico is a better all round rider than Gadret. But my estimation of a GC contender is that he only needs to be able to do 2 things: climb and TT. Everything else is surplus to requirements. The fact that Nico can hold his own in a bunch sprint, or is punchy and clever enough to get into good breakaways is entirely useless in the context of the overall GC classification. He has worked incredibly hard at his climbing and we have seen a massive improvement in this area over the last 2 seasons. If he put the same attention into the TT, then i think we'd have a real contender for the GC podium in any grand tour!

irishpeloton

el tonto wrote: »

That's to say nothing of the fact that there aren't many riders these days capable of performing well in both the Giro and the Tour.

True. But Gadret seems to be one of them. He finished in the top 20 of both last year. And last year's Giro wasn't exactly easy either.

Chips Lovell

Yes, but he still didn't ride as good a Tour as Roche. Roche put over 5 minutes, as far as I can recall, into him in the ITT and was as strong if not stronger in the mountains. An in form Roche is still a better bet.

Chips Lovell

Moving away from Roche for a second, do people think it will be good for Wiggins to win the overall.

On the one hand he really needs a big result, given that its two years now since his last one. On the other, a win here would greatly increase the hype and pressure on him going into the Tour from the British media.

irishpeloton

el tonto wrote: »

Yes, but he still didn't ride as good a Tour as Roche. Roche put over 5 minutes, as far as I can recall, into him in the ITT and was as strong if not stronger in the mountains. An in form Roche is still a better bet.

I'm not convinced. I don't think an in form Roche could have finished 4th in that Giro. Although that is true about last year's time trial, in fact, Gadret came dead last.

As for Wiggins, I think you're right about the British media hype. A 2nd or 3rd place finish would suit him nicely. Absolute confirmation that he's in great form but less pressure going into the Tour, which by his own admission was a tremendous burden on him last year.

RobFowl

el tonto wrote: »

Moving away from Roche for a second, do people think it will be good for Wiggins to win the overall.

On the one hand he really needs a big result, given that its two years now since his last one. On the other, a win here would greatly increase the hype and pressure on him going into the Tour from the British media.

It would be good for him as the Dauphine is a good win in it's own right . It would make his palmares a lot more solid looking especially after he retires (Millar (Robert) only won 1 stage race of this calibre AFAIK).

The Sky/British crowd are going to pile the pressure on anyway.......