Time to abolish the Jr cert and leaving cert

Lucozade man

The Junior Cert and leaving Cert are a waste of tax payers money, They dont teach our young people anything about the real world. Its no wonder this country is in such a mess when we have kept those useless exams for donkeys years. all those boys and girls that have spent 100s of hours learning shakespeare and the irish language, well how is that going to help them when we default?

p1akuw47h5r3it

Thread fail

U have to say why you think they are a waste of time or else this will just be locked!

The question I feel is if we get rid of the LC, what do we replace it with?

I'm pretty sure the JC is being done away with.

Overheal

Unfortunately some standard to testing is necessary to ensure a standard of education. At least take solace it's not yet as bad as some other places like the United States.

At the end of the day though some kids don't pay attention in school if they don't think the material is going to do something for them. What kid is going to really pay attention to information that is 'fascinating' or 'useful if you become a specialist in X field'. Some only pay attention when you can tell them "This will be on the test".

That's human nature unfortunately and it's a difficult thing to iron out.

guitarzero

I think OP makes the good point that if our country is in a jocker then how much of that is a testament to our eduction? Perhaps our kids our too obedient and servile to authority? Perhaps they just do what their told too often without objection? Perhaps our education system needs are very close inspection?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

syklops

Lucozade man wrote: »

The Junior Cert and leaving Cert are a waste of tax payers money, They dont teach our young people anything about the real world. Its no wonder this country is in such a mess when we have kept those useless exams for donkeys years. all those boys and girls that have spent 100s of hours learning shakespeare and the irish language, well how is that going to help them when we default?

Im sure the thousands of students sitting their economics exam next thursday or whenever it is will tell you, that a default is pretty unlikely, despite what many keyboard warriors economics will tell you.

That aside, there has to be some level of testing of education. Otherwise how do you know its worth the money or not?

I failed the Junior Cert. Am I ashamed? No. Why? Because It pointed out to me that my method for studying for large exams didn't work. So I adapted my approach and in my LC got among others a B in Irish, one of my worst subjects. While I can no longer write essays discussing a piece of Irish prose, I can still learn stuff on my own and retain that knowledge, without which I would be on the scrap heap.

We could scrap the department of Education and instead give every 5 year old 10,000 euro and a huge saving for the tax payer, but we will end up in a much worse situation.

What skills do you think we should be teaching which will be useful in a post-apocalytic default Ireland? All I can think of as being useful is planting spuds and killing bears. Hardly rocket science.

Cue someone telling just how difficult killings bears is.

loldog

Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

Hamlet, Act I, Scene III

the groutch

we'll never see the LC disappear completely, there has to be a way to decide college places, unless we want to go back to the bad old days of only kids from rich families getting to go to college.

there are alot of subject tho which need to be abolished or seriously overhauled to make them more relevant to the real world.

And none of the subjects should be manditory at all.
eg. unless they get a public service job the vast majority of people will never speak a word of Irish after secondary school, so why waste resources teaching it to those who don't want to learn it.
same can be said for poetry and shakespearean plays, how far will they get you in the real world?

digme

Yes we should abolish the mindless regurgitation of information.

Manach

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".
- (Act IV, Scene II).

Nijmegen

Ah, the annual argument!

I think the LC in its current form, like many businesspeople who see the eventual results, is a particularly useless system. Even many teachers and teachers groups think so. One wonders why we haven't changed it...

It's focused on rote learning and the ability of teachers to correctly guess a strategy for students to 'game the system' by learning the right stuff to hit their marks.

It's also statistically fragile - for example, a person sitting English 1 this morning will be at a disadvantage tomorrow if they're also sitting Home Ec this PM.

I think a far more practical learning based system that bears in mind the kind of functioning adult you want at the end of it, with assessment throughout alongside final exams, would be a much better system.

I don't think too many people are wedded to the idea that the LC is a good system where rote learning is concerned.

Sure we need a system to choose college places, but not this mindless thing that gives a student very little in the way of practical education.

silverharp

I vote Shakespear be made part of the economics and politics syllibus :pac:




“I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er.” Macbeth

lenny and the bailout perhaps?

FreudianSlippers

Manach wrote: »

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".
- (Act IV, Scene II).

YEAH! :hides wig under the bed:

Time to abolish the Jr Cert and leaving cert

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone, but it's a bit rich to make a post that the JC and LC should be abolished that's rife with grammatical errors and poor punctuation.
Perhaps if more of the country was better educated we would not have such a large and growing gap between the classes.

As an aside, I would agree that the Junior Cert ought to be replaced by a continual assessment system. I don't think children of the JC age are necessarily benefiting from "cramming" for large exams. Rather, a strict continual assessment system and attendance policy which would lead to a better classification system (see Germany's) would better prepare students who wish to go on to further education and those who wish to go on to trade-type professions.

I don't agree with (to quote the US phrase) "no child left behind" policies in education. Clearly some children are not as capable as others but deserve a basic education.
Others are certain that they will go on to do trade professions - so their post-JC education should be focused on necessary skills (basic mathematics, basic English / communication, etc.) rather than "advanced" skills which are more suited to professional qualifications.

That way, we get everyone to have a baseline education where some children don't feel "stupid" at the same time other children are feeling held back from going on to more advanced study.

I feel that the turn of the working class against education and an almost distrust of the educated in this country by the working class is dangerous and damaging to our economic state.

Dob74

Overheal wrote: »

Unfortunately some standard to testing is necessary to ensure a standard of education. At least take solace it's not yet as bad as some other places like the United States.

At the end of the day though some kids don't pay attention in school if they don't think the material is going to do something for them. What kid is going to really pay attention to information that is 'fascinating' or 'useful if you become a specialist in X field'. Some only pay attention when you can tell them "This will be on the test".

That's human nature unfortunately and it's a difficult thing to iron out.

I have to disagree with you about the US education system.
While the education system is easier on the students the results are much better. Most of the world's best engineer's have all come through the public school system in US.
Our fee paying school system may active good LC scores but it also passes down the narrow mindness and ignorance that is instilled in our governoring class.

We think we are smart because the local shop keeper rips off a few yanks buying Aran sweeters.
Look at the irish mugs who get ripped off buying property in Spain, Turkey and Florida.

Dale Parish

It's disgusting that there's no computer course at LC level.

Overheal

Dale Parish wrote: »

It's disgusting that there's no computer course at LC level.

There is in some cases an optional technlogoy course, but if you know anything about computers its a joke. the only thing that throws people for a loop is boolean logic and binary/hex conversion

Dale Parish

Overheal wrote: »

There is in some cases an optional technlogoy course, but if you know anything about computers its a joke. the only thing that throws people for a loop is boolean logic and binary/hex conversion

Yeah I was considering starting it this year but it was too late (February). Questions along the lines of "What does USB stand for?", however the course is not totally computer based since it asks about types of fabric and how heat resistant they are etc IIRC

Son Of A Vidic

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

YEAH! :hides wig under the bed:



I'm not trying to have a go at anyone, but it's a bit rich to make a post that the JC and LC should be abolished that's rife with grammatical errors and poor punctuation.
Perhaps if more of the country was better educated we would not have such a large and growing gap between the classes.

As an aside, I would agree that the Junior Cert ought to be replaced by a continual assessment system. I don't think children of the JC age are necessarily benefiting from "cramming" for large exams. Rather, a strict continual assessment system and attendance policy which would lead to a better classification system (see Germany's) would better prepare students who wish to go on to further education and those who wish to go on to trade-type professions.

I don't agree with (to quote the US phrase) "no child left behind" policies in education. Clearly some children are not as capable as others but deserve a basic education.
Others are certain that they will go on to do trade professions - so their post-JC education should be focused on necessary skills (basic mathematics, basic English / communication, etc.) rather than "advanced" skills which are more suited to professional qualifications.

That way, we get everyone to have a baseline education where some children don't feel "stupid" at the same time other children are feeling held back from going on to more advanced study.

I feel that the turn of the working class against education and an almost distrust of the educated in this country by the working class is dangerous and damaging to our economic state.

Well said, I think the Leaving Cert and Junior Cert exams are quite antiquated at this stage. I would also share the view that these exams in no way prepare someone for the real world/life. I also believe it is impossible to have everyone educated to the same high standard. But it is quite possible to ensure all students have the essential core skills. Looking back to my own experience, I was way too young to make career life choices at 14/15. Hence, perhaps the reason I have changed career path several times since.

Cookie_Monster

I think they still serve their purpose in general, giving a broad education in numerous fields and developing the learning attitude for the future.

There are some subjects / exams that out out of touch though now a days, Irish being compulsory for example or the ridiculousness of the English course, studying poetry and Shakespeare and pointless outdated rubbish like that.

The thing the JC and LC both seem to totally lack is a real world subject, "general living" lets call it. A combination of home economics, computers, personal finance and health & nutrition is badly needed to give everyone a solid anchor in how to manage their life outside of work and academia IMO.

NTMK

The Points system needs to be scrapped its a load of BS that a student who gets 3 A1s in science subjects cant get into the top science courses because people who got A's in let's say English Irish and Art and did aveage in the science subjects get in ahead of them.

The LC also has the problem that it primarily rewards route learners which isnt a good test of ability and understanding

It needs to be change to where students are not punished because they're not all-rounders or route learners

PARKHEAD67

Lucozade man wrote: »

The Junior Cert and leaving Cert are a waste of tax payers money, They dont teach our young people anything about the real world. Its no wonder this country is in such a mess when we have kept those useless exams for donkeys years. all those boys and girls that have spent 100s of hours learning shakespeare and the irish language, well how is that going to help them when we default?

Its a memory test. Remember everything from the book you read. Absolute poppycock to the real world.Reciting something from a book that happened in 1942 does in no way make you intelligent. I know people from my year in school who could recite to you about the battle of the somme. How does that make them intelligent?The recital cert.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Dale Parish wrote: »

It's disgusting that there's no computer course at LC level.

In my secondary school we spent an hour a week studying religion only weeks before the LC. To think that time was wasted on that, while such an important subject was ignored entirely.

Fluorescence

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There are some subjects / exams that out out of touch though now a days, Irish being compulsory for example or the ridiculousness of the English course, studying poetry and Shakespeare and pointless outdated rubbish like that.

How on earth is it ridiculous to study English literature in an English course? That is perhaps the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

'Outdated rubbish'... There's no such thing as outdated literature.

femur61

Obviously needs radical change. We have never got as many A's in exams and look how we've fallen from 5th to 17th in literacy and from 15th to 25 in maths. So you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure something is wrong.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/irelands-literacy-and-numeracy-ranking-falls-154553.html

A levels IMO are much more in tune what children require and make them think like first year in college. Good short term memory will get you a good leaving cert.

Overheal

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

'Outdated rubbish'... There's no such thing as outdated literature.

I have a few technical manuals that beg to differ

Gunmonkey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The thing the JC and LC both seem to totally lack is a real world subject, "general living" lets call it. A combination of home economics, computers, personal finance and health & nutrition is badly needed to give everyone a solid anchor in how to manage their life outside of work and academia IMO.

Maybe not a class that would be tested, but just something to teach the kids skills they WILL need in life. Knowing how to cook at a very basic level isnt something you MIGHT need in the future, but judging by the diets most college students live on its needed. LC Home Economics (or whatever its called now) seems to fill a lot of what your saying is needed. Unfortunately, as I found out when I did it for the JC, any males doing are subject to "Your doing HE...derher are you a girl...hurhur only girls do HE".

matthew8

Scrap the junior cert. Keep the leaving cert but get rid of the points system and make the subjects harder. The points system is nonsensical rubbish. Make all subjects optional.

Curriculum changes:
English: Don't tell people to write about a specific poet or play, let them choose a poet or play to write about because then perhaps they won't hate drama and poetry forever.
Irish: Get rid of prose/poetry/history
Maths: Stop the project maths, it is a harebrained scheme, people don't need to measure a tree to be good at maths.

MadsL

matthew8 wrote: »

people don't need to measure a tree to be good at maths.

When did you last use theoretical maths?

Edit: forget that I see you are actually doing your JR. Wait and see what you actually have to use maths for in the real world.

Lord TSC

matthew8 wrote: »

Keep the leaving cert but get rid of the points system (...). The points system is nonsensical rubbish.

While I can see the merits in your other points, this has to be addressed. If we got rid of the points system, how then would we decide who gets what place in college? You can't propose scrapping one scheme unless you've got one to replace it...

spurious

Dale Parish wrote: »

It's disgusting that there's no computer course at LC level.

There is. In the Applied Leaving Cert there is an IT specialism.

Dale Parish

spurious wrote: »

There is. In the Applied Leaving Cert there is an IT specialism.

I was reffering to the normal Leaving Cert, not the Leaving Cert Applied

6328

I think the LC and JC are there for the reason of proving " Are you able for a job? Can you work for your qualifications? "

Its the same as why should students go to college for the qualifications of a business manager? Anyone can do it without the qualifications? Start as an employee and work your way up.

The JC is there for preperation for the leaving cert. While the mocks are there to show you how it will be done ven though students by exam papers - to study for the year.

I dont think the LC should be abolished, the JC yeah, its useless and can cause such stress on young teenagers but it does help what level they stand at in each subject.

What should be brought down is the amount of rubbish that is taught in school, why shakespear? USELESS! Most the topics of maths dont matter at all in life. Irish? Majority of the country dont use it? And every other subject, majority of it isnt needed for college if it was going to be studied. Subjects such a IT and other skilling subjects are needed but arent used. Technology isnt even used in school which is a shame. Because a student going into college might not even know how to use the computer because tey cant afford one at home and the school dont teach them to use them.

Lord TSC

As an English teacher myself, I can say that the main aim of the English LC is not to teach Shakespeare but to teach critical analysis and comprehnsion abilities and so forth; to teach people how to read dificult texts, work their head around them and to be able to formulate arguements and debates on them. To teach them skills that are 100% nessecary in any line of work. Shakespeare and other texts are used as the way of teaching these abilities; in other words, people miss the point of the course when they think it's purely about memorizing literature with no real world usage. Of course, that can be put down to the fact some teachers just do focus on learning-by-heart and miss the point of the subject.

Regardless, I've said before each and every subject should be optional. If you dont see the point of any subject, it shouldn't be forced on you. It would be a better system to let everyone pick six or seven subjects they feel are relevant to their own ideas for the future...

scotty_irish

People here who are saying that much of the maths course needs changing definitely don't work in science/eng. Most days I find myself using much of the material covered on LC maths (writing engineering software). Personally, I think the practical applications of the different areas of maths should be taught in Higher Level, to show the relevance of these and that they're not just abstract concepts, but real things with real uses. It ordinary level, perhaps leave out more of the theoretical stuff and focus on teaching good basic math skills and understanding. That said, from having read a thread yesterday about what people are planning on studying in college next year, its all arts,business and health, very little science/eng so not too many going to be using maths in future.

omg a kitty

Abolish it now please, I don't wanna take the french:(
Anyway, apart for french, Im glad the JC is there, or else I would just slack off from 1st class to 6th year.
I agree with you in the teaching Irish bit, teaching Irish in schools to students who dont want to and will never need them is a waste of money. Strangely abolishing a tedious subject forced upon unwilling students was faced with more criticism than abolishing State Exams

eoin5

scotty_irish wrote: »

People here who are saying that much of the maths course needs changing definitely don't work in science/eng. Most days I find myself using much of the material covered on LC maths (writing engineering software). Personally, I think the practical applications of the different areas of maths should be taught in Higher Level, to show the relevance of these and that they're not just abstract concepts, but real things with real uses. It ordinary level, perhaps leave out more of the theoretical stuff and focus on teaching good basic math skills and understanding. That said, from having read a thread yesterday about what people are planning on studying in college next year, its all arts,business and health, very little science/eng so not too many going to be using maths in future.

I found what I learned to be very useful too, but why get students to do rushed exams where your grade doesn't reflect your understanding and use as much as how quickly you can thrash through formulas.

scotty_irish

eoin5 wrote: »

I found what I learned to be very useful too, but why get students to do rushed exams where your grade doesn't reflect your understanding and use as much as how quickly you can thrash through formulas.

i'm all for making maths exams open book! no learning stupid theorems! however, i'm of the opinion that maths is one of the few subjects where an exam is the way to test understanding.

and omg_kitty, go to france, meet the people, ignore the stereotypes and then you'll see plenty of point in learning the language!

matthew8

scotty_irish wrote: »

i'm all for making maths exams open book! no learning stupid theorems! however, i'm of the opinion that maths is one of the few subjects where an exam is the way to test understanding.

and omg_kitty, go to france, meet the people, ignore the stereotypes and then you'll see plenty of point in learning the language!

The French are worse than the sterotypes portray them to be, I would've let the Germans keep France. Never want to go to France for over 2 days again. i don't see any point in learning languages, I'd rather they prepared us to make jobs rather than prepared us to emigrate.

scotty_irish

matthew8 wrote: »

The French are worse than the sterotypes portray them to be, I would've let the Germans keep France. Never want to go to France for over 2 days again. i don't see any point in learning languages, I'd rather they prepared us to make jobs rather than prepared us to emigrate.

languages are the way forward. preparation for the workplace, not just emigration!

languages are about communication. communication is one of the most important things in the workplace.

also, many millions of people speak french, not just the french. communication with a much greater portion of the world!

so many jobs now require a second language, my flatmate just got a job designing nuclear power plants with EDF because he's fluent french (also a good engineer)!

and a quick sidenote, have you seen french women, just one more reason to learn french!

languages are one of the most useful things taught in schools, a skill you can take with you and use for the rest of your life. they open the door to you with travel, instead of doing the usual tourist things, you can meet the locals and have a blast with them! people appreciate when you speak to them in their own language.

Fluorescence

matthew8 wrote: »

The French are worse than the sterotypes portray them to be, I would've let the Germans keep France. Never want to go to France for over 2 days again. i don't see any point in learning languages, I'd rather they prepared us to make jobs rather than prepared us to emigrate.

It's will be a very sad day when people no longer see the value of language learning. Not only do extra languages give you more credentials and open doors for employment, they enhance your worldview. Imbibed in a language is a whole culture and way of life, another perspective, another way of thinking.


In fact, modern languages are arguably one of the most useful skill sets taught in Irish schools, both from practical and theoretical point of views.

Richard Hillman

There needs to be major reform. The Junior cert is pointless and should be done away with. The Leaving cert is more of a memory test. It doesnt reward creativity, ingenuity, common sense or initiative. The basics of professional life skills. I dont think a system of teachers giving long term grades could work either as like it or not they do have their favourite students, although being on friendly terms with teachers would be rewarding common sense. I think we need to overhaul the whole system and start from scratch rather than sticking with the current outdated system. As said previously in the thread, computers must be included in the school system. If we started to teach computer basics for the first 2 years in secondary school and then used the next 4 for computer programming, web design etc our country would be unstoppable. We would be the IT capital of the world. The current education system is geared to get children into college. I think our education system should be geared to make Ireland better. IT, Business, skilled professions and science should be at the forefront of secondary school.

steelcityblues

fluorescence wrote: »

It's will be a very sad day when people no longer see the value of language learning. Not only do extra languages give you more credentials and open doors for employment, they enhance your worldview. Imbibed in a language is a whole culture and way of life, another perspective, another way of thinking.


In fact, modern languages are arguably one of the most useful skill sets taught in Irish schools, both from practical and theoretical point of views.

Why, for example, is Chinese Mandarin not being widely taken as an LC subject by now? Given they will be the most influential country of this century.

Sierra Oscar

Lets just abolish the entire Education system sure, get rid of those pesky Uni's while we are at it!

Fluorescence

steelcityblues wrote: »

Why, for example, is Chinese Mandarin not being widely taken as an LC subject by now? Given they will be the most influential country of this century.

There's hardly any qualified 2nd level teachers in the country who have Chinese, sadly.

Richard Hillman

fluorescence wrote: »

There's hardly any qualified 2nd level teachers in the country who have Chinese, sadly.

We have plenty of people of highly educated Chinese people in this country who are in low paying jobs that could do a fine job at this.

Fluorescence

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We have plenty of people of highly educated Chinese people in this country who are in low paying jobs that could do a fine job at this.

It's up to them to do a PGDE and go off to teach in secondary schools. I only said there aren't many 2nd level teachers with Chinese, not that there aren't any Chinese speakers in the country.

matthew8

fluorescence wrote: »

It's will be a very sad day when people no longer see the value of language learning. Not only do extra languages give you more credentials and open doors for employment, they enhance your worldview. Imbibed in a language is a whole culture and way of life, another perspective, another way of thinking.


In fact, modern languages are arguably one of the most useful skill sets taught in Irish schools, both from practical and theoretical point of views.

I'll be going through the leaving cycle soon, I have no intention of speaking any foreign language. If I emigrate I'll go to an English speaking country. Why would I rather to be poorly taught french and Irish than build up some decent knowledge in biology and geography, 2 subjects I'm interested in but won't be able to do due to doing some languages which I won't be able to speak?

Fluorescence

matthew8 wrote: »

I'll be going through the leaving cycle soon, I have no intention of speaking any foreign language. If I emigrate I'll go to an English speaking country. Why would I rather to be poorly taught french and Irish than build up some decent knowledge in biology and geography, 2 subjects I'm interested in but won't be able to do due to doing some languages which I won't be able to speak?

How do languages interfere with biology and geography? In my school we did Irish, English, Maths, a european language, and 3 chosen subjects. I don't see how french hampers your other subject choices .

Either way, whether you will use other languages or not isn't always important. It looks good to have them, and it trains your mind to be more verbal and fluid. They teach you critical thinking, not to mention train you to be more adept at noticing patterns, rules and structures. It would serve you well to be able to consider things from many perspectives, and extra languages can teach you that.

I will also say that you have no idea where you'll end up eventually. One day you could easily be in a situation where you'll be glad for an extra language under your belt. You're missing much by restricting yourself to an english speaking world.

matthew8

fluorescence wrote: »

How do languages interfere with biology and geography? In my school we did Irish, English, Maths, a european language, and 3 chosen subjects. I don't see how french hampers your other subject choices .

Either way, whether you will use other languages or not isn't always important. It looks good to have them, and it trains your mind to be more verbal and fluid. They teach you critical thinking, not to mention train you to be more adept at noticing patterns, rules and structures. It would serve you well to be able to consider things from many perspectives, and extra languages can teach you that.

I will also say that you have no idea where you'll end up eventually. One day you could easily be in a situation where you'll be glad for an extra language under your belt. You're missing much by restricting yourself to an english speaking world.

Okay, I get to choose 3 subject for the leaving cert outside of the compulsory ones in our school: English, Irish, Maths, French (Our school places an emphasis on college so gets us to learn french). I want to choose Business, Chemistry and Physics, the 3 things that I think would help me most in employing myself based on the sort of thing I want to get in to. But let's say I can't set up a business. I would rather have biology and geography as back-up plans (like career choices in both of those) but having to do French and Irish instead thwart those plans. I end up with terrible French and Irish and no job rather than increasing my chances of a job.