New program advice - Noob warning

traco

OK, I have been lurking here for a while as I have decided that this was the year to get in shape.

Details, 38 year old male, 6'4". Start of January 117.5kgs.

So joined a gym and got a program. Followed that religiously for about 4 months and had another assessment. Made decent progress so by mid May weight was 109kgs and down a few notches on belt so going well.

Got a new program and I am struggling with this one so while sticking with it for the moment I think I could do with some help.

Program is Mon Wed and Fri in the mornings and it's about a 50 min drive to gym by my office so alarm goes at 5:20 am, breakfast about 50g porridge with milk, yogurt and a banana. Into car around 5:45 and hit gym at 6:30.

Program is 6 min rower at level 8, 35 strokes a min, 20 mins treadmill working to 12.5 kph, cross trainer 20 mins level 6. So that's 50 mins plus by the time that's complete.

Next weights, all 3 sets 12-15 reps.
Hanging leg raises in Roman chair
Shoulder press 20 kgs (machine)
Lat pull down 80 kgs (machine)
Bench press 50 kgs
Lying dumbbell flys 9kgs
Lying French press (triceps) 20 kgs
Squats 60 kgs

4 min cool down on bike
Stretches 10-15 mins

This takes almost 2 hours and I think I am struggling. The weight loss has stalled and while fitness is improving it's shaky. Some days are good others are rubbish. Weight loss has stalled but strength has improved slowly but depends on the day.

I find the cardio hard due to the reasonably large breakfast but if I don't have something substantial then I am useless in the weights room. I am also not getting enough sleep as 5:20 is an ungodly hour to get up at.

So should I break the cardio out to tue, thur, sat and just do a short cardio warm up before the weights, this would mean on cardio days breakfast would be after work out or something very light before and possibly help fat burn. Weights days I would stick with that brekkie and have more energy to lift with better form and increase strength. This would also help with sleep.

Comments on a postcard please and thanks for reading.

squod

Think I'd try working out from home if it was me OP. Cheap exercise bike from dondeal and those wasted 50mins are suddenly a shed load of burned calories in front of the TV.

NOOB gains will only last the first few weeks like. It's hard work after that. Good job on the weight loss so far.

TimeToShine

Doing 50 minutes of cardio and a further 50+ minutes of weights is, in my view, a bad idea. Could you not just lift on Monday/Wednesday/Friday and do Cardio on Tuesday and Thursday? You're really killing yourself out there, getting up at 5AM to get your workout in(much respect). Your cardio program doesn't have to be followed religiously. For me, High Intensity Interval Training works great, and even then, if you miss a session, eating less will compensate for it. However, avoid missing a lifting session unless you really have to.

In your lifts I would advise you switch to 3x8 rather than 3x12-15. This is key. You are basically going to failure whilst on a cut in diet, which will not yield good results. You're basically fatiguing yourself with no energy to keep you going. Up your weights and do 3x8 or even 3x5. Try and use Dumb-bells or a Barbell for the shoulder press, even just the bar would be fine and move on from there. Your lat pulldown at 80kg is pretty damn good, I'd advise you start doing Dumb-bell rows and in no time you'll be able to do chin-ups and maybe pull-ups. I would switch the french press out for Dips(elevated if they're too easy) and dump the DB flies. If you have to do them, do them on an incline bench rather than a flat bench.

That's my opinion anyway, I'm sure there are more experienced people who can correct me if I've said anything wrong. Best of luck.

Mellor

Do weights before cardio if you are doing both. You'll be able to give the weights far more effort that way.
I'd sway the machinf shoulder press for a barbell or dumbell shoulder press.

TimeToShine wrote:

dump the DB flies. If you have to do them, do them on an incline bench rather than a flat bench

Whats your reasoning for incline over flat? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just wondering

shootermacg

As they guys said, cardio last and maybe look at introducing a push/pull split to give yourself adequate rest.
That's a lot of cardio mate, maybe throttle it back a bit or you may just burn yourself out.

traco

Thanks for comments

squod wrote: »

Think I'd try working out from home if it was me OP. Cheap exercise bike from dondeal and those wasted 50mins are suddenly a shed load of burned calories in front of the TV.

That'd be one expensive exercise bike by the time I'd be finished with the divorce costs.

TimeToShine wrote: »

Doing 50 minutes of cardio and a further 50+ minutes of weights is, in my view, a bad idea. Could you not just lift on Monday/Wednesday/Friday and do Cardio on Tuesday and Thursday? You're really killing yourself out there, getting up at 5AM to get your workout in(much respect). Your cardio program doesn't have to be followed religiously. For me, High Intensity Interval Training works great, and even then, if you miss a session, eating less will compensate for it. However, avoid missing a lifting session unless you really have to.

In your lifts I would advise you switch to 3x8 rather than 3x12-15. This is key. You are basically going to failure whilst on a cut in diet, which will not yield good results. You're basically fatiguing yourself with no energy to keep you going. Up your weights and do 3x8 or even 3x5. Try and use Dumb-bells or a Barbell for the shoulder press, even just the bar would be fine and move on from there. Your lat pulldown at 80kg is pretty damn good, I'd advise you start doing Dumb-bell rows and in no time you'll be able to do chin-ups and maybe pull-ups. I would switch the french press out for Dips(elevated if they're too easy) and dump the DB flies. If you have to do them, do them on an incline bench rather than a flat bench.

That's my opinion anyway, I'm sure there are more experienced people who can correct me if I've said anything wrong. Best of luck.

Thats kind of the way I am thinking but while I have read a fair bit I'm still new to this. I have been reading a fair bit and the vibe is cardio and weights aren't the best plan so was going to have a go at spliting them alternate days. I also try and play tennis a few times a week so thats more cardio.

As for the morning start, I have gotten used to it but since the new plan and having to start at 5:20 to make office for 9 its a lot harder and I knwo I am not sleeping enough. So dropping the 50 mins cardio would mean a 6am alarm and even though its still early its a hell of a lot more civilised than 5.

I will reduce reps as suggested as you have described pretty much the way the session feels. I am pushing to failure on the last few reps and form gets sloppy.

Mellor wrote: »

Do weights before cardio if you are doing both. You'll be able to give the weights far more effort that way.
I'd sway the machinf shoulder press for a barbell or dumbell shoulder press.

Whats your reasoning for incline over flat? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just wondering

I'll also try the barbell or dumbells for shoulder press and see how that goes.

As for why the flies are flat - no idea just doing what I was told as I don't know enough about the specific exercises yet. I am just trying to do then smoothly in control and with correct form.

I will see if I can find a HIIT program and see how I get on on alternate days.

My goal is 100kgs but I'm not too bothered about the scales as I am not a small bloke and was never light (must be a thick boned culchie thing), once I get the look I want and the fitness I'll be happy out.

Have to say even though its hard I am enjoying it, just wish I started years ago and I am getting more into it as I keep at it. So much so that I am now 5 months off the booze and want to keep the momentum going.

Justin1982

Are you adhering to the weight loss formula?

Weight Loss if average daily calories burnt is consistently greater than average daily calorie intake!
Do that and you'll loose weight whether your doing cardio, lifting weights, juggling monkeys or sitting down looking at TV.

Getting to the gym for 6.30am sounds like torture to me! :eek: How long do you think you can sustain that? And your there a very long time as well. Your running the risk of turning yourself off gym and exercise for life if your not enjoying it. If your not getting enough sleep then thats not good either, your just going to turn into a moody cranky wreck.
Personally I cant believe the gym instructors have you doing all that at half six in morn.:rolleyes:

Take a look at the sticky post at top of this section of the forum. Its very informative. Even if you read only the first ten posts in it (3rd post is not correct though. You dont need to keep your body guessing and changing your program)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055963342

TimeToShine

Mellor wrote: »

Do weights before cardio if you are doing both. You'll be able to give the weights far more effort that way.
I'd sway the machinf shoulder press for a barbell or dumbell shoulder press.


Whats your reasoning for incline over flat? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just wondering

Flat benching hits your lats and chest, and flat flies hit your lats pretty hard, whereas incline flies will focus more on upper chest if done with correct form. You don't want to be hitting the same muscles twice in the same session, and especially that hard. I've asked about this in my gym and they agreed with me but of course I am open to correction.

Edit: If you have a cable machine then cable crossovers are a great replacement for flies

compaqlaptop1

traco wrote: »

OK, I have been lurking here for a while as I have decided that this was the year to get in shape.

Details, 38 year old male, 6'4". Start of January 117.5kgs.

So joined a gym and got a program. Followed that religiously for about 4 months and had another assessment. Made decent progress so by mid May weight was 109kgs and down a few notches on belt so going well.

Got a new program and I am struggling with this one so while sticking with it for the moment I think I could do with some help.

Program is Mon Wed and Fri in the mornings and it's about a 50 min drive to gym by my office so alarm goes at 5:20 am, breakfast about 50g porridge with milk, yogurt and a banana. Into car around 5:45 and hit gym at 6:30.

Program is 6 min rower at level 8, 35 strokes a min, 20 mins treadmill working to 12.5 kph, cross trainer 20 mins level 6. So that's 50 mins plus by the time that's complete.

Next weights, all 3 sets 12-15 reps.
Hanging leg raises in Roman chair
Shoulder press 20 kgs (machine)
Lat pull down 80 kgs (machine)
Bench press 50 kgs
Lying dumbbell flys 9kgs
Lying French press (triceps) 20 kgs
Squats 60 kgs

4 min cool down on bike
Stretches 10-15 mins

This takes almost 2 hours and I think I am struggling. The weight loss has stalled and while fitness is improving it's shaky. Some days are good others are rubbish. Weight loss has stalled but strength has improved slowly but depends on the day.

That looks like a good program...if you want to put yourself off exercising for life. 50 plus minutes of cardio...and thats before lifting......2 hours in the gym.

Typical dumb program given to you by some random gym instructor, the 50 mins cardio before lifting is a sure sign whoever gave you that program hasnt a clue. You are busting your balls unecessarily, dont make the beginner mistake of thinking more is more. You will get better results by following a better routine that also has the added benefit of not taking 2 hours...and has you doing 50+ minutes cardio before even lifting weights. :rolleyes:

Do starting strength, westside for skinny bastards or some other tried and tested novice program, cut the cardio down to 30 mins max (I would recommend you do this on the non-gym days, just go for a run outside, no need for a treadmill) and, most importantly for weightloss and musclebuilding, get your diet in order. If you are still not sure about that hire a proper personal trainer, there are a few who post here on boards like Transform, for a few sessions to give you a manageable sensible program. Whatever you do, just dont spend the next few months killing yourself doing a dumb program given to you by some random gym twat.

Of course you are losing weight now and your current program is 'working' but when you are devoting several hours of your week to exercising, thats alot of time spent in the gym over the months, and you want to get the best bang for your buck.

Mellor

Justin1982 wrote: »

Getting to the gym for 6.30am sounds like torture to me! :eek: How long do you think you can sustain that? And your there a very long time as well. Your running the risk of turning yourself off gym and exercise for life if your not enjoying it. If your not getting enough sleep then thats not good either, your just going to turn into a moody cranky wreck.
Personally I cant believe the gym instructors have you doing all that at half six in morn.:rolleyes:

Nothing wrong with training at half 6.30 if the OP is comfortable with it. Just because you don't have the motivation, and would find it torture, doesn't mean everyone does.
I used to train before secondary school, 2 mornings a week, 5.45 to 7.15 (plus two weekend sessions). I did this for years and it wasn't very hard to get used to it. I rathered that at the time then having to go in the evenings.

TimeToShine wrote: »

Flat benching hits your lats and chest, and flat flies hit your lats pretty hard, whereas incline flies will focus more on upper chest if done with correct form. You don't want to be hitting the same muscles twice in the same session, and especially that hard.

Incline will hit upper chest more, but it'll also hit shoulders more, which creates the same "problem". I put it in commas as i don't think using the same muscle twice in a single session is as big a deal as you think. You pretty much can't avoid this with compound excercises, and it isn't really hitting them that hard.

traco

OK update on this morning - 6am alarm, so a lie on!!

Scrapped all cardio except 6 min warm up on rower. I have a love hate relationship with that machine and prefer it to all other cardio.

So onto weights

All 3 sets 8 reps.
Hanging leg raises in Roman chair (3 x 15)
Shoulder press 20 kgs (machine), 2nd set increased to 22.5kg each side and kept form to 8 in third set.
Lat pull down 80 kgs (machine) - better form on last set
Bench press 50 kgs, 2nd set 55kg, 3rd set 60kg with good form but tough on last rep.
Lying dumbbell flys used 10kgs dumbells instaed of 9kgs, could possibly go higher
Lying French press (triceps) 20 kgs uped to 25kg
Squats 60 kgs, 2nd and 3rd set 80kg

4 min cool down on bike
Stretches 10-15 mins

Showered and out in about 1:20 and not wrecked her in the office, actually feeling good and motivated again.

Diet - fully aware of the need to create a calorie deficit so its not bad but I suppose could be better. Weekends are harder as there is usually faily dinners etc or out so need to really get strict on that.
Breakfast:
40g porridge, milk, 1 tblesp Protein with tub of Glenisk yougurt
Post workout protein shake, 2 scoops with water
Mid morning - tub cottage cheese with 2 x whlemeal crackers
Lunch - Drainied tin of tuna, 2 slices of wholemeal bread with some mayo and branston pickle.
Mid afternoon - some dry roasted peanuts, orange and banana (shoudl I scrap fuit due to sugar content or is it OK)
Dinner - standard enough family dinner, try to keep down on carbs, meat and veg format.
Usually one cup of coffee in the morning somewhere.

Issues over last few weeks, not drinking enough water and being weak on the diet as I am tired all the time,this caused snacking so that needs more discipline. Also had weekend away and several business meetings out and about so slips with too much coffee and biccys. :mad:

Will do cardio at home tomorrow, run warm up and them a HIIT session followed by breakfast. Been looking up stuff on HIIT and wheter to eat before or after, might try small shake before and see how that feels in the gut.

While the weights might not be ideal I think I'll keep the format for a few weeks and see how things progress with splitting the cardio out and monitoring the food.

Justin1982

traco wrote: »

Mid afternoon - some dry roasted peanuts, orange and banana (shoudl I scrap fuit due to sugar content or is it OK)

While the weights might not be ideal I think I'll keep the format for a few weeks and see how things progress with splitting the cardio out and monitoring the food.

Keep the fruit! Its important part of your diet and well being to eat your fruit and veg. They are not that high in calories (compared to fat) and the sugar in fruit is fine for the body. Its more the sugar in processed food like biscuits and sweats that gives sugar a bad name. Focus more on cleaning up your diet the weekend if its not that good. Also note that you need to be getting enough protein into you when on a calorie deficit and lifting weights. Otherwise you will probably loose muscle rather than increase it.

Your right to split out the cardio and weights. I'd maybe suggest to focus on weight loss first. Then when you get to the weight you want to be, then start your strength training/muscle building if that is also an aim. Trying to do the two at the one time is hard at best.

The information your getting in this thread is only the tip of the iceberg of what you could learn to help you on your way. Try to find a good website with good information and learn as you go.