200,000 Low Pay Workers Facing Pay Cut

Gary4279

Richard Bruton is to put forward proposals for reform within the next week which the government will make a decision on by the end of the month.

These will include the alteration of JLC's or getting rid of them all together which will mean no Sunday, Bank Holiday or over time payments for people that work in sectors such as retail, hairdressing, tourism, grocery ect...

IBEC are asking for basically all workers rights to be abolished.

Personally this disgusts me. The less well off have already had fairly significant tax increases with more domestic charges to come (water, property and household tax). Yet again we're having more money taken from us which we simply cannot afford.

Low earners typically put the majority of their income back into the economy by necessity. If their wages are cut further how can they be expected to live.

For me as a Student, I work part time and study full time. I earn less money than most and struggle to get by most weeks. I don't mind doing this because I know that there is something at the end of it and most students need to do it. But if I were to lose the extra bit of cash I get on a Sunday then I simply wont be able to make ends meet. I'd probably have to leave college and sign on to the dole where I could get more money and live a more comfortable life.

I know cuts need to be made and i'm in favour of most of the taxes that the government has brought in but this will seriously effect both myself and thousands more.

Biggins

Short version: Businesses will gain and low paid will lose out more.

...And I agree, its also hitting the low paid yet again in the wallet (if there is anything left in them).

D1stant

Gary4279 wrote: »

I'd probably have to leave college and sign on to the dole where I could get more money and live a more comfortable life.

For how long?

UsernameInUse

Hey, if it hits the public sector, I'm all for it.

Biggins

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Hey, if it hits the public sector, I'm all for it.

No - its for weekend workers, etc in the leisure/entertainment businesses etc that will be more so effected.

Gary4279

D1stant wrote: »

For how long?

How long would i be on the dole?

How long is a piece of string?

Gary4279

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Hey, if it hits the public sector, I'm all for it.

It won't really, maybe a few but its mainly going to hit low earners that have to work on Sundays.

D1stant

Gary4279 wrote: »

How long would i be on the dole?

How long is a piece of string?

No how long would you be more comfortable on the dole. You think thats a safe haven?

D1stant

Gary4279 wrote: »

It won't really, maybe a few but its mainly going to hit low earners that have to work on Sundays.

You at 'work' now?

Gary4279

D1stant wrote: »

No how long would you be more comfortable on the dole. You think thats a safe haven?

I doubt I could last long on the dole. Ive never been on it and I hope I never will be because it looks like pure hell. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

But at the end of the day, people have to eat and keep a roof over their head.

UsernameInUse

Biggins wrote: »

No - its for weekend workers, etc in the leisure/entertainment businesses etc that will be more so effected.

Aren't you a Labour man? You aul socialist pig! :pac:
mod:banned.

Gary4279

D1stant wrote: »

You at 'work' now?

Just home,sadly I don't get to post on boards all day in work

Gummy Panda

Won't this affect people employed after this goes through as existing workers would have contractual agreements?

Gary4279

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Won't this affect people employed after this goes through as existing workers would have contractual agreements?

I enquired about this in work and apparently as its a government action then it will bypass our contracts.

oppenheimer1

Gary4279 wrote: »

Richard Bruton is to put forward proposals for reform within the next week which the government will make a decision on by the end of the month.

These will include the alteration of JLC's or getting rid of them all together which will mean no Sunday, Bank Holiday or over time payments for people that work in sectors such as retail, hairdressing, tourism, grocery ect...

IBEC are asking for basically all workers rights to be abolished.

Personally this disgusts me. The less well off have already had fairly significant tax increases with more domestic charges to come (water, property and household tax). Yet again we're having more money taken from us which we simply cannot afford.

Low earners typically put the majority of their income back into the economy by necessity. If their wages are cut further how can they be expected to live.

For me as a Student, I work part time and study full time. I earn less money than most and struggle to get by most weeks. I don't mind doing this because I know that there is something at the end of it and most students need to do it. But if I were to lose the extra bit of cash I get on a Sunday then I simply wont be able to make ends meet. I'd probably have to leave college and sign on to the dole where I could get more money and live a more comfortable life.

I know cuts need to be made and i'm in favour of most of the taxes that the government has brought in but this will seriously effect both myself and thousands more.

The problem is the countrys domestic economy is highly uncompetitive and relative to other nations, put simply, our cleaners etc get paid too much. I don't like the fact that they're in line for an adjustment but the sad reality is that unless costs come down for the domestic economy to western european levels (minimum) it will stifle growth. Unless we can grow, we can never repay our debts.

Everyone is going to become less well off because of austerity, everyone is going to have to pay more and some people are sadly going to be tipped into poverty. In order to prevent this someone has to pay for it, and quite frankly no one is willing to, not any more.

Biggins

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Aren't you a Labour man?

:eek:

No.

denlaw

Ibec have been after this for yrs , what a bunch of twats .


Rats in a sewer ..

Biggins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The problem is the countrys domestic economy is highly uncompetitive and relative to other nations, put simply, our cleaners etc get paid too much. I don't like the fact that they're in line for an adjustment but the sad reality is that unless costs come down for the domestic economy to western european levels (minimum) it will stifle growth.

Everyone is going to become less well off because of austerity, everyone is going to have to pay more and some people are sadly going to be tipped into poverty. In order to prevent this someone has to pay for it, and quite frankly no one is willing to, not any more.

I agree with a lot of what you say but yet again we see more so the lower sections (that are being hit left, right and centre) targeted for being robbed of the last few cents out of their pockets.
Yet again the poorer paying for the mistakes of the richer!

Turtwig

I'm sorry but can someone explain the rationale to me. Low paid workers get their legs cut off, those without jobs aren't exactly going to take this as sign of encouragement to get Jobs.

Biggins

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm sorry but can someone explain the rationale to me. Low paid workers get their legs cut off, those without jobs aren't exactly going to take this as sign of encouragement to get Jobs.

It's certainly another valid aspect to it.

Gummy Panda

Gary4279 wrote: »

I enquired about this in work and apparently as its a government action then it will bypass our contracts.

I suppose it depends on your contract. Some people are on salaries in Retail and may have a rotating days off so sunday is considered a full 8 hour day. While some would be on €* per hour and would have 1.3/1.5 multiplier for Sundays.

Gary4279

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The problem is the countrys domestic economy is highly uncompetitive and relative to other nations, put simply, our cleaners etc get paid too much. I don't like the fact that they're in line for an adjustment but the sad reality is that unless costs come down for the domestic economy to western european levels (minimum) it will stifle growth.

Everyone is going to become less well off because of austerity, everyone is going to have to pay more and some people are sadly going to be tipped into poverty. In order to prevent this someone has to pay for it, and quite frankly no one is willing to, not any more.

Thats the first thing that i thought of when I heard this news a while ago. Under the government National Anti-Poverty Strategy (2007) it was highlighted that around 16.5% (i'd imagine this has rose) of our population were experiencing poverty and unable to partake in society in a way which would be considered the 'norm', ie become educated, get a good job, have a good diet ect.... the basics of modern western worlds not poverty in th Africa sense of the word.

Now, a lot of these people work in the sectors which will be hit by the new cuts. Should they be hit then won't they drop further into poverty and be joined more.

I can't help think that there are people already in worse off situations than me that will be even worse after this.

oppenheimer1

Biggins wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say but yet again we see more so the lower sections (that are being hit left, right and centre) targeted for stealing the last few cents out of their pockets.
Yet again the poorer paying for the mistakes of the richer!

The lower paid are being hit for two reasons: A) Primarily because theres more of them and They are generally less mobile. A small cut to a large number of peiople will yeild a greater return than a big cut to a small number people

A tax on the rich won't work because they will move away, while the lower paid are trapped here. Its sad, its unfair but unfortunately its reality.

Gary4279

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I suppose it depends on your contract. Some people are on salaries in Retail and may have a rotating days off so sunday is considered a full 8 hour day. While some would be on €* per hour and would have 1.3/1.5 multiplier for Sundays.

In my case we used to get full days on sunday but since the decline we've been cut back to 4 hour shifts. That really brought me to the edge, this will tip it.

waster81

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The problem is the countrys domestic economy is highly uncompetitive and relative to other nations, put simply, our cleaners etc get paid too much. I don't like the fact that they're in line for an adjustment but the sad reality is that unless costs come down for the domestic economy to western european levels (minimum) it will stifle growth. Unless we can grow, we can never repay our debts.

Everyone is going to become less well off because of austerity, everyone is going to have to pay more and some people are sadly going to be tipped into poverty. In order to prevent this someone has to pay for it, and quite frankly no one is willing to, not any more.

Yeah and what we need to do is cut the lowest paid because they cant do anything about it, cant leave the country or higher an accountant to cut the amount of tax they pay

But lets leave those on their high incomes they cant be cut, we wouldnt never get anyone to replace them if heaven forbid they emigrated

Yes in order for those well off in society to remain untouched, sadly the only option we really have is to cut lower incomes and let them stay on their high incomes, its a sad but true fact!

oppenheimer1

Gary4279 wrote: »

Thats the first thing that i thought of when I heard this news a while ago. Under the government National Anti-Poverty Strategy (2007) it was highlighted that around 16.5% (i'd imagine this has rose) of our population were experiencing poverty and unable to partake in society in a way which would be considered the 'norm', ie become educated, get a good job, have a good diet ect.... the basics of modern western worlds not poverty in th Africa sense of the word.

Now, a lot of these people work in the sectors which will be hit by the new cuts. Should they be hit then won't they drop further into poverty and be joined more.

I can't help think that there are people already in worse off situations than me that will be even worse after this.

What do you propose the government do? And how do you propose the country to pay for it, especially when high taxes for the rich don't work?

Einhard

Gary4279 wrote: »

IBEC are asking for basically all workers rights to be abolished.

No they're not. Seriously, how can you hope for a reasoned debate when you start off with such sensationalist fabrications?

7sr2z3fely84g5

The extortionate rates for water/rent/waste need to be cut first before min wage.

Biggins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The lower paid are being hit for two reasons: A) Primarily because theres more of them and They are generally less mobile. A small cut to a large number of peiople will yeild a greater return than a big cut to a small number people

A tax on the rich won't work because they will move away, while the lower paid are trapped here. Its sad, its unfair but unfortunately its reality.

Again accuracy in what you say - but just how much does this government think they can drain out of our pockets?
Seriously?
The saying "...blood from a stone" has never been so true.

Its been commented already by European accountants that if there is not enough money left on the public pockets, then there is the knock on effect that they will hold on to what little remain in their bank accounts etc, and spend further bugger all - and that by domino effect will have further repercussions, etc...
Its happening already.

Teyla Emmagan

Gary4279 wrote: »

IBEC are asking for basically all workers rights to be abolished.

Seriously!? Hysterical much?

Gary4279

Einhard wrote: »

No they're not. Seriously, how can you hope for a reasoned debate when you start off with such sensationalist fabrications?

By workers rights I was referring to those regarding wages. I mean the minimum wage has already been dropped and now premium rates may be going.

Obviously rights regarding conditions will remain as the government can get money from abolishing those.

Einhard

I'm all for a a decent wage for a decent shift, but is it really reasonable to expect that some workers get double or even triple pay just because they work Sundays? Some is a pretty operative word in all this too, because large sectors of lower paid workers aren't covered by these agreements.

gbee

At one time, for services working 7 days a week, the weekend was part of the working week. Your days would shift and you had three days off or something like that and you worked one full weekend in three weeks ~ does that make sense?

We have seen services close on Sunday because of the extra cost of staff were would not be compensated by extra business from the public.

So, I'd support this return # mind you, in the above system if you came in on any extra day you were paid the overtime at 1nhalf and double for the next day [just like working a weekend, no matter what day it happened to be].

Overtime is overtime and should be paid when the employee has done his 35/40 hours and not *just because Saturday or Sunday or bank Holidays happen to interrupt your working week.

I have to admit I actually liked working the above system, it did away with the dreaded 'Monday Morning' and actually afforded me with MORE overtime as more people would be absent during the normal working week than at weekend [don't know why that's just my story].

waster81

Raiden Helpless Mitten wrote: »

The extortionate rates for water/rent/waste need to be cut first before min wage.

ok so we cut water and waste rates, this revenue needs to be replaced from somewhere

Where do you suggest

Gary4279

Einhard wrote: »

I'm all for a a decent wage for a decent shift, but is it really reasonable to expect that some workers get double or even triple pay just because they work Sundays? Some is a pretty operative word in all this too, because large sectors of lower paid workers aren't covered by these agreements.

I have never heard of anyone in the retail/hotel/tourism industry getting triple pay on a Sunday. Even double pay is rare these days.

The thing is that Sunday isn't really a day to work, people expect extra money for working it and I think its only fair. I know that this probably stems back to the church but its still a fair argument to make.

waster81

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What do you propose the government do? And how do you propose the country to pay for it, especially when high taxes for the rich don't work?

maybe we could get rich people paying an effective tax rate that represents their true position, an effective tax rate of 37% doesnt seem fair to me, but to you maybe

Gary4279

Raiden Helpless Mitten wrote: »

The extortionate rates for water/rent/waste need to be cut first before min wage.

I'd be more in favour in these staying as they are because at least everyone has to pay them.

Einhard

Gary4279 wrote: »

I have never heard of anyone in the retail/hotel/tourism industry getting triple pay on a Sunday. Even double pay is rare these days.

Well of dpuble pay is rare, why are people so up iun arms about possible reform?

The thing is that Sunday isn't really a day to work, people expect extra money for working it and I think its only fair. I know that this probably stems back to the church but its still a fair argument to make.

Why isn't Sunday a day to work? Seems a rather strange notion to me.

Teyla Emmagan

Gary4279 wrote: »

The thing is that Sunday isn't really a day to work, people expect extra money for working it and I think its only fair.

I don't. If you work five days a week and one of them happens to be a Sunday, then so what? It should be treated the same and paid the same as any other day. It's not 1953 anymore.

I think this is a reasonable inititative. What it will hopefully mean is that the employers will now be able to take on extra staff, thus removing more people from the dole queue and giving them the chance to make a living.

Einhard

Gary4279 wrote: »

By workers rights I was referring to those regarding wages. I mean the minimum wage has already been dropped and now premium rates may be going.

I fully support the minimum wage, and the government's decision to reverse the cuts. I don't believe that IBEC want all rights abolished, but rather want some flexibility in the market. At the moment, AFAIK, if you can't afford to pay double rates for Sunday work, you can nothing except close on the Sunday, depriving yourself of business, and your staff of earnings. Not exactly an ideal situation is it?

waster81

Einhard wrote: »

Well of dpuble pay is rare, why are people so up iun arms about possible reform?



Why isn't Sunday a day to work? Seems a rather strange notion to me.

what about the triple pay you were on bout, who's getting those rates?

surely you werent just exaggerating!

Gary4279

Einhard wrote: »

Well of dpuble pay is rare, why are people so up iun arms about possible reform?



Why isn't Sunday a day to work? Seems a rather strange notion to me.

Most people get time and a half, it makes a big difference at the end of a week. For many the difference between hot/cold water.

The majority of people relax at the weekend, mainly on sunday. Its more sociological than it is factual.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Gary4279 wrote: »

I'd be more in favour in these staying as they are because at least everyone has to pay them.

Worded wrong,i mean in reduced,alot of businesses due to lack of business are struggling with them.

Gary4279

Einhard wrote: »

I fully support the minimum wage, and the government's decision to reverse the cuts. I don't believe that IBEC want all rights abolished, but rather want some flexibility in the market. At the moment, AFAIK, if you can't afford to pay double rates for Sunday work, you can nothing except close on the Sunday, depriving yourself of business, and your staff of earnings. Not exactly an ideal situation is it?

But would it not be better to revise the national wage agreements to say that larger companies that can afford to pay their staff premium rates ie Tesco pay them.

Where as companies experiencing difficulty can apply for exemptions. Seems fair to me. At least it would keep some money flowing through the economy instead of the big companies taking advantage of it and giving themselves bonuses from the savings.

Gary4279

Raiden Helpless Mitten wrote: »

Worded wrong,i mean in reduced,alot of businesses due to lack of business are struggling with them.

Perhaps a cut off point for companies struggling. Same as the PAYE cut-off system idea.

waster81

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I don't. If you work five days a week and one of them happens to be a Sunday, then so what? It should be treated the same and paid the same as any other day. It's not 1953 anymore.

I think this is a reasonable inititative. What it will hopefully mean is that the employers will now be able to take on extra staff, thus removing more people from the dole queue and giving them the chance to make a living.

If i believed it would create jobs, then you could say it was justified.

But lets look, how many new jobs were created when government cut the minimum wage

Why dont the government say for every new job a company creates then it can cut the wages of their employees.

There is no evidence that business will create new jobs, all they will do is pocket the savings in costs for themselves

Lets have restrictions on it, you create a job then you can reduce wages, you dont then they remain the same, isnt this what business are telling us they cant create jobs because of the wage costs, so lets see how true their word is

Teyla Emmagan

Gary4279 wrote: »

The majority of people relax at the weekend, mainly on sunday. Its more sociological than it is factual.

Wha'?!

busyliving

If Sunday and Bank Holiday rates are scrapped I’ll never work them again...maybe during the summer, but not during the soccer season.

The only consolation I took for my many years of working Sundays and missing Super Sunday was the bit of extra money I was earning.

I can understand businesses are losing out because of the extra costs...but here is one for you...don't open on a Sunday. I know a shop owner who hasn't opened on a Sunday or a bank holiday or the last 4 years and he is doing a little better than the other shops in the same area.

Also, if these rates are cut it would probably be better to be on the dole than working if you’re only working part time


/rant

Logical Fallacy

Biggins wrote: »

Short version: Businesses will gain and low paid will lose out more.

...And I agree, its also hitting the low paid yet again in the wallet (if there is anything left in them).

Government and Employers Line : Be happy you have a ****ing job while we stuff our pockets.

It's grand though, better to have a low paid job that end up on the dole with everyone and their mother calling you a sponging ****.

n900guy

gbee wrote: »

At one time, for services working 7 days a week, the weekend was part of the working week. Your days would shift and you had three days off or something like that and you worked one full weekend in three weeks ~ does that make sense?

We have seen services close on Sunday because of the extra cost of staff were would not be compensated by extra business from the public.

So, I'd support this return # mind you, in the above system if you came in on any extra day you were paid the overtime at 1nhalf and double for the next day [just like working a weekend, no matter what day it happened to be].

Overtime is overtime and should be paid when the employee has done his 35/40 hours and not *just because Saturday or Sunday or bank Holidays happen to interrupt your working week.

I have to admit I actually liked working the above system, it did away with the dreaded 'Monday Morning' and actually afforded me with MORE overtime as more people would be absent during the normal working week than at weekend [don't know why that's just my story].

The solution is - well to move towards a socially conscious balance - like in central europe e.g., Germany or Netherlands, with shops simply being closed on Sundays. It protects workers. The only people that benefit are owners of businesses - it does not trickle down.

So, if a business opens on Sunday, then it stays shut on Monday. But, in no way make people work any hours over a seven day period. They deserve proper workers rights, or else we will become like Africa/America. I see no need for city shops to be open every day.

n900guy

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I don't. If you work five days a week and one of them happens to be a Sunday, then so what? It should be treated the same and paid the same as any other day. It's not 1953 anymore.

I think this is a reasonable inititative. What it will hopefully mean is that the employers will now be able to take on extra staff, thus removing more people from the dole queue and giving them the chance to make a living.

It's not a relgious issue (maybe that is what you meant by the 1953 comment). Businesses do not need to run 24x7. Keep a day of the week (or two) closed and allow people/employees less pressure to always get another shift, more money, etc., . If the economy is going bad, and there is less money around, then we need to ensure that quality of life is ensured. That means moving away from the commercialised existence of a sunday family outing being to liffey valley, for example.