Looking ahead to September/October

The Volt

In September, Slovakia will be without goalkeeper Jan Mucha and Miroslav Stoch who both picked up their second bookings of the campaign against Andorra. We have no suspensions for the game so hopefully we'll be back to full strength. We play them on September 2nd, the same day that Russia take on Macedonia at home. Even a draw wouldn't be a total disaster as we'd go ahead of them then on goal difference.

4 days later we travel to Moscow while the Slovaks host Armenia. It's in our hands but if we end up finishing second, we could still qualify as the best second placed team given that we have Andorra and Armenia left to play.

I really fancy us to beat Slovakia as well as the should-be formalities against Andorra and Armenia. It'll all boil down to how well we can do in Russia. Here's hoping Trap lets the players off their harness like he did against Italy and France.

Mr. Guappa

You'd have to fancy the top three to win all their remaining games against the other teams in the group, with Slovakia's game away to Macedonia the most likely fixture to throw up an upset. So it should all come down to the three games between the top three. A win against Slovakia would put us on course for 2nd at worst and give us a good chance of winning the group with a result in Russia.

The results against Andorra will not be included in the calculations for best 2nd-placed team as there is a few 5-team groups so the results against the bottom-placed team in a 6-team group don't count towards determining the best runner-up.

newballsplease

Why are we not ahead of slovakia now? The result against them was 1-1 and we have the better goal diff

Nalz

newballsplease wrote: »

Why are we not ahead of slovakia now? The result against them was 1-1 and we have the better goal diff

They bet Russia who in turn bet us, it doesn't go on goal difference unless the games between teams are of level pegging AFAIK

Leiva

I have a funny feeling the so called minnows in the group will have a say before the end of the stage

The Volt

The outcome of Slovakia v Russia will be interesting too

TheBunk1

I'd expect us to beat Slovakia, barring we get some injuries to key players. They are a poor team. Getting anything in Russia is another matter entirely. We can't go out there and play 4-4-2 like we did in Dublin. They totally overran our midfield on the night and 2-3 flattered us.

busyliving

Hey guys...sorry I know this is a bit off topic

But i've just done a quiet search on ticketmaster and the official FAI site about tickets for the Slovakia game in Dublin...and i can't find anything about a regular ticket, just some experience lounge ticket

So are the tickets just not a sale yet or what?

Also does anyone know how much a general admission ticket would set me back for the game...also will the tickets sell fast with it being a crucial game and all

Cheers

Mr. Guappa

Voltwad wrote: »

The outcome of Slovakia v Russia will be interesting too

A draw in that game looks to be the best outcome for us at the moment. But it's hard to say at this stage given that we play both of them before that game.

The Volt

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

A draw in that game looks to be the best outcome for us at the moment. But it's hard to say at this stage given that we play both of them before that game.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we could beat Slovakia and they, in turn could beat Russia.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

Slovakia are absolutely dire, I'll be furious if we don't beat them.

Kilbane and Andrews did okay yesterday, but if they're dropped I think we have hope in Moscow.

Mr. Guappa

Voltwad wrote: »

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we could beat Slovakia and they, in turn could beat Russia.

The worst scenario for us would be:
Ireland def. Slovakia
Russia def. Ireland
Slovakia def. Russia
Or alternatively if all 3 games ended in draws.

That would likely leave a 3-way tie at the top with us stranded in 3rd-place

The Volt

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

The worst scenario for us would be:
Ireland def. Slovakia
Russia def. Ireland
Slovakia def. Russia
Or alternatively if all 3 games ended in draws.

That would likely leave a 3-way tie at the top with us stranded in 3rd-place

Would it not be judged on our head to head with Slovakia then? Leaving them in 3rd?

Desire.

Voltwad wrote: »

Would it not be judged on our head to head with Slovakia then? Leaving them in 3rd?

No, because Slovakia would be ahead of Russia on head-to-head who in turn would be ahead of us on head-to-head.

Mr. Guappa

Voltwad wrote: »

Would it not be judged on our head to head with Slovakia then? Leaving them in 3rd?

Nope.. it would be judged on the 6 games between the 3 teams, and the rankings would remain as they are now.

The mini-table would look like this:
Slovakia would have 7 points (6 v Russia and 1 v Ireland)
Russia would have 6 points (6 v Ireland and 0 v Slovakia)
Ireland would have 4 points (4 v Slovakia and 0 v Russia)

newballsplease

it should just go down to goal difference like any other league. dont like that head to head crap! it confuses me!!

ArmaniJeanss

newballsplease wrote: »

it should just go down to goal difference like any other league. dont like that head to head crap! it confuses me!!

Yes, only 2bit operations like SerieA, LaLiga, Champions League, UEFA qualifying tournaments etc use head to head.

Desire.

newballsplease wrote: »

it should just go down to goal difference like any other league. dont like that head to head crap! it confuses me!!

If you're level with a team, and you've taken more points off them than they have off you, you probably deserve to finish ahead of them in my opinion.

LuckyLloyd

Slovakia are beatable, but it will be a nervy experience and by no means a formality. IF we can get 3 points against them, we would be travelling to Moscow with all the pressure off - a free first shot at qualification so to speak with the nets of the playoffs to catch our fall...

Draw with Slovakia and things get very messy. Lose to Slovakia and we're out but we won't deserve to qualify anyway if that happens.

pickarooney

They need to redesign the way they display the league table. As it is the important information is missing.

Nalz

pickarooney wrote: »

They need to redesign the way they display the league table. As it is the important information is missing.

a nice way would be to introduce a points score if two or more teams are on the same points...or even a *Slovakia top the group as they....

bonerm

newballsplease wrote: »

it should just go down to goal difference like any other league. dont like that head to head crap! it confuses me!!

I think head-to-head is fairer in competitions where there's a lot of crud in the mix (eg Andorra). I wouldn't like to go out just because of scoring less goals against a team who (imho) shouldn't even be competing.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

What a massive week for Irish football that first week in September will be. I think we'll beat Slovakia 2-0 in front of a sold out Aviva and then travel to Moscow knowing a win, albeit unlikely, would almost guarantee qualification.

I'm excited already.

seafood dunleavy

Let's say Russia top the group and us and Slovakia finish tied in 2nd. And say the Ireland v Slovakia game finishes 0-0. Would we finish runners up because of our away goal in Slovakia? Or would it go to goal difference if the teams aggregate head to head is a draw?

bonerm

Beyond helping our cause a win in Moscow would be a huge statement of intent for us. It'd be the most unlikely of results considering Moscow is probably Europes #1 'fortress' in terms of results, that we've lost everytime we've played there and haven't won away against a 'big' team in 24 years. However, I always keep going back to Greece 2004 but they lost at home to Spain early in the group and then beat them in Spain before qualifying as group winners. Stranger things have happened.

bohsboy

bonerm wrote: »

I wouldn't like to go out just because of scoring less goals against a team who (imho) shouldn't even be competing.

Why should they not be competing?

bonerm

bohsboy wrote: »

Why should they not be competing?

Theoretically no reason. However my personal preference would be for a preliminary round in the qualifiers. I think international football is losing its value in Europe because there's too many of these "nothing games" against the likes of Andorra.

Further you could structure the groups any way you liked rather than having to be a slave to the numbers competing, so that (in this instance) you could have seven groups (instead of nine) with the bonus of having the knowledge that 2nd place would guarantee qualification rather than getting dumped into the playoffs.

newballsplease

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Yes, only 2bit operations like SerieA, LaLiga, Champions League, UEFA qualifying tournaments etc use head to head.

I dont really follow la liga or serie A.....but i was sure champions league went on goal difference? My bad.

ArmaniJeanss

newballsplease wrote: »

I dont really follow la liga or serie A.....but i was sure champions league went on goal difference? My bad.

Not to worry.
It is kind of strange that for something as fundamental as deciding 'who finishes ahead of who when points are level' that 2 of the major leagues use head to head and 2 (EPL and Bundesliga) use goal difference.
UEFA and FIFA seem to swap from one to the other quite regularly also.

Interestingly (or not) Ireland wouldn't have even have qualified for World Cup 94 if head to head had been used then as we would have lost on away goals to Denmark over our two games, 0-0 away, 1-1 at home (though our approach to the last 20 minutes in Windsor in the last game would have been different obviously).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA_-_Group_3)

tolosenc

bonerm wrote: »

Theoretically no reason. However my personal preference would be for a preliminary round in the qualifiers. I think international football is losing its value in Europe because there's too many of these "nothing games" against the likes of Andorra.

Further you could structure the groups any way you liked rather than having to be a slave to the numbers competing, so that (in this instance) you could have seven groups (instead of nine) with the bonus of having the knowledge that 2nd place would guarantee qualification rather than getting dumped into the playoffs.

Agree with this a lot.

In the case of qualifying for Euro 2012, there are 51 countries battling it out for 14 spots.

If you had a round robin between the Faroes, Malta, Andorra and San Marino, with the top 2 going through, then you'd have 49 countries left, ie 7 groups of 7 teams. The top two in each would qualify. Much easier.

pickarooney

I was sure Serie A went to a play-off if two teams were level on points.

bonerm

tolosenc wrote: »

Agree with this a lot.

In the case of qualifying for Euro 2012, there are 51 countries battling it out for 14 spots.

If you had a round robin between the Faroes, Malta, Andorra and San Marino, with the top 2 going through, then you'd have 49 countries left, ie 7 groups of 7 teams. The top two in each would qualify. Much easier.

I'd probably limit it even further. Have have 7 groups of 6 with 28 automatic places and the lower 23 pre-qualifying for the other 14 spots.

TheRedDevil10

The Russia game kicks off at four o'clock on a tuesday afternoon. :eek:

bonerm

TheRedDevil10 wrote: »

The Russia game kicks off at four o'clock on a tuesday afternoon. :eek:

It'll be just like the good old days of Lansdowne Road before the floodlights went in.

parker kent

bonerm wrote: »

It'll be just like the good old days of Lansdowne Road before the floodlights went in.

Racing home from school on those days was dreadful. The fear and anticipation of what I had missed.

Morzadec

tolosenc wrote: »

Agree with this a lot.

In the case of qualifying for Euro 2012, there are 51 countries battling it out for 14 spots.

If you had a round robin between the Faroes, Malta, Andorra and San Marino, with the top 2 going through, then you'd have 49 countries left, ie 7 groups of 7 teams. The top two in each would qualify. Much easier.

I agree in principle, although then you wouldn't have the drama of the play-offs.

I'm sure it brings in a lot of dosh for the federations etc..., perhaps UEFA would be unwilling to structure it like this for that reason

TheRedDevil10

We are well able to beat Slovakia. This would be the team I'd pick from a 23 man squad:

---

Given
----Foley-Dunne-O'Shea-Ward
Coleman-Whelan-McCarthy-Duff

---

Keane-Doyle

Subs: Westwood, St. Ledger, Clark, Fahey, McGeady, Hunt, Long.
Other squad members: Forde, O'Dea, Andrews, Gibson, Cox.

Players who miss out: Randolph, Kelly, Kilbane, McShane, Delaney, Cunningham, Wilson, Meyler, Lawrence, Treacy, Hoolahan, Keogh, Best, Folan, Stokes, Walters, N. Hunt.

IMO thats a very strong squad. Trap would never pick a team that attacking but I think that team could give Slovakia a hammering. Fully accept that the team will be nothing like that for the Russia game however.

busyliving

tolosenc wrote: »

Agree with this a lot.

In the case of qualifying for Euro 2012, there are 51 countries battling it out for 14 spots.

If you had a round robin between the Faroes, Malta, Andorra and San Marino, with the top 2 going through, then you'd have 49 countries left, ie 7 groups of 7 teams. The top two in each would qualify. Much easier.

Is it not 53, and why would you inclue the Faroes in this...they are ranked higher than both Liechtenstein & Kazakhstan...

But I agree with the principal...If the bottom 8 ranked nations were to play in 2 groups of 4 with the top two from each grioup going through, it would make it a lot better, cutting down the teams to 49

tolosenc

busyliving wrote: »

Is it not 53, and why would you inclue the Faroes in this...they are ranked higher than both Liechtenstein & Kazakhstan...

But I agree with the principal...If the bottom 8 ranked nations were to play in 2 groups of 4 with the top two from each grioup going through, it would make it a lot better, cutting down the teams to 49

51 as Poland and Ukraine are already qualified as hosts!

Faroes are the 4th lowest in terms of UEFA coefficient, which is how Qualifiers for the Euros are seeded.

Liam O

I die a little inside everytime Coleman is on the bench. I really think we should be playing him as a right back against all the smaller teams and possibly if it works out in 1 or 2 of the bigger games. He was one of the better players in the entire PL this season imo and the fact that he is not being played is a joke. If him and McGeady got a good understanding going on the right it could be fairly devastating imo.

There's no point either in not playing a more attack minded player beside Whelan. McCarthy or Gibson have to play or else it just leads to isolated forwards. Especially when playing Hunt who is more of a workhorse than an all out creative winger (not saying he isn't very useful). Cox over Long is another major WTF thing.

Ultimately I think this group of players have a lot of potential and if you'd have asked me 2 or 3 years ago I'd have been very downbeat about Ireland's future prospects but with the likes of Coleman, Clark, McCarthy, McGeady and Long there is a very strong group of very good young players who can play for 7-10 years. There's a big chance and the addition of a few other players over the next few years and Ireland really could go up a level in Europe.

Mr.Nice Guy

I fancy us to beat Slovakia too. It will probably be the most important game of the group.

Anyone know what the story is with Greg Cunningham's recovery from his broken leg? He was getting good reviews with Leicester before it happened and I thought he was a great prospect for us at left-back. Hopefully he can recover his form but I haven't heard much about him since his injury.

busyliving

tolosenc wrote: »

51 as Poland and Ukraine are already qualified as hosts!

Faroes are the 4th lowest in terms of UEFA coefficient, which is how Qualifiers for the Euros are seeded.

Ah that makes sense

Also i didn't know that, thought they went off rankings for some reason

Desire.

busyliving wrote: »

Ah that makes sense

Also i didn't know that, thought they went off rankings for some reason

Would that not be fairer? I mean surely a nation should be seeded because of they perform and not their clubs?

Ireland could struggle to move up a seed so?

busyliving

Desire. wrote: »

Would that not be fairer? I mean surely a nation should be seeded because of they perform and not their clubs?

Ireland could struggle to move up a seed so?

I checked it out, because I had similar concerns to yourself...

These coefficients are based on national team performance not club

Under National Team Coefficients

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

tolosenc

World Cup stuff is by FIFA world rankings, Euro stuff is by national team coeffiecient, which is different to the league coefficient.

newballsplease

pickarooney wrote: »

I was sure Serie A went to a play-off if two teams were level on points.

Got me thinkn....how the hell do they place a whole league of 20+ teams on head to heads instead of goal differences??

pickarooney

Assuming this is accurate, a play-off is no longer used in Serie A but head to head and then goal difference:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070724122625AAHm3CN

In the Premiership If points are equal the goal difference and goals scored then determines the winner. If still equal they are deemed to occupy the same position; if the champions, teams for relegation or qualification for other competitions thus cannot be decided, a series of play-off matches are played between the affected teams at neutral venues (this has yet to occur).

In the Serie A it used to be playoffs was if teams finished the season with the same total number of points. In season 2005-2006 "Playoffs" were abolished. Now Teams are ranked by total points, with "classifica avulsa" (a table where only head-to-head results between teams with the same total points are considered)used to separate teams on equal points. In case two or more teams have same total points and same "classifica avulsa" goal difference is used to separate them

ArmaniJeanss

newballsplease wrote: »

Got me thinkn....how the hell do they place a whole league of 20+ teams on head to heads instead of goal differences??

Lolwat? They order them by overall points first just like any other league.

(This may blow your mind but every league is effectively one giant 20 way head-to-head battle.

newballsplease

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Lolwat? They order them by overall points first just like any other league.

(This may blow your mind but every league is effectively one giant 20 way head-to-head battle.

Say theres 7 or 8 teams on same points.. I just allways thought it went on goal difference.

parker kent

newballsplease wrote: »

Say theres 7 or 8 teams on same points.. I just allways thought it went on goal difference.

Well the same way they separate Ireland, Slovakia and Russia. It hardly requires John Nash to work out the mathematics.

newballsplease

I wouldnt fancy it!