Proposed changes to tutorship

blucey

Present and past students of TCD might be interested to know that there are some proposals emerging to change the basis of tutorship.
I address the issues here : http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/thoughts-on-tutoring-in-tcd/
But the essence is to move it from a select number to a much wider pool, possibly making it compulsory, and removing the tutors allowance (paid for by the registration fee btw).

Jonathan

While the tutor system is great in theory, in practice is it not as effective as you romantically claim in your blog.

You currently have two distinct groups of people tutoring in TCD today:

• Academics who genuinely care about, and wish to help students.
• Academics who don't care about the students, but are tutoring to pass the taking an active part in college life proficiency when going for promotion.

It is pot luck which tutor you are assigned when you enter the college.

Unfortunately, I was assigned a member of staff from group two when I entered college. I tried to meet my tutor several times during freshers week in first year as suggested. My tutor was not there several times, and when I did finally meet him/her, I was told in polite terms to piss off and come back during his/her clinic hours in two weeks time. Needless to say that was my last dealing with him/her throughout my four years of college.

I'm not the only person to have a negative experience with this person, and I know many other students who have other bad tutors. Conversely I also know many others who have good tutors, including one tutor who meets with students once a semester for a chat and a tea/coffee, even if there is nothing in particular up.

Throughout my time in college I found it easier to approach lecturers directly should the need arise, and everyone that I approached was more than willing to chat.

Pet

I don't disagree with your point Jonathan, but surely the proposed changes will only widen the pool of tutors falling into the latter group and exacerbate the problem?

Jonathan

Pet wrote: »

I don't disagree with your point Jonathan, but surely the proposed changes will only widen the pool of tutors falling into the latter group and exacerbate the problem?

Perhaps. Although now you will probably see the unwilling tutors providing an intentionally poor service in order to be placed on some sort of unsuitable tutor material list. Eventually you will be left with the original tutors from group one, and those who might be good tutors but hadn't originally considered being one.

This current proposal is far from ideal, but I do think that the current system needs an overhaul of some sort.

PurpleFistMixer

Jonathan wrote: »

Throughout my time in college I found it easier to approach lecturers directly should the need arise, and everyone that I approached was more than willing to chat.

Approaching lecturers directly is only relevant for a subset of things one might approach their tutor for, though.

CIARAN_BOYLE

When a lecturer who is taking a semester off is assigned as a tutor you know there is something wrong with the system.

Podge_irl

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

When a lecturer who is taking a semester off is assigned as a tutor you know there is something wrong with the system.

They should really be sorting out a temporary replacement. My tutor was excellent, though I never had any dealings with him myself. It he was away for even a couple days he would give us contact details for someone else in case something came up.

NeuroCat

The tutor I was assigned is excellent. Whenever he leaves for a couple of days he assigns a temporary replacement. From personal experience, I have only good things to say about the system.

However, I do believe I was lucky in being assigned such a good tutor considering I know people who failed their exams who could not contact their tutor for up to 2 weeks. I also know of someone who was marked to appeal their results due to illness and their tutor "forgot" to lodge to appeal before the deadline.

It really does seem to come down to the luck of the draw, but the majority of tutors appear to express a genuine interest in student welfare.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Podge_irl wrote: »

They should really be sorting out a temporary replacement. My tutor was excellent, though I never had any dealings with him myself. It he was away for even a couple days he would give us contact details for someone else in case something came up.

In as a first year it took me three weeks to find out he was on a break from the college.

In my second term I had health problems around the time of the term tests including passing out during one and missing two more in hospital. It took two weeks for him to get back to me on how to get a medical exemption for the term tests and I got the information after the deadline to get in personal circumstances form. Had I got the form in before the deadline those 3 tests wouldn't count for me and I would have been marked extra on final exams but because I didn't get the forms in on time I got two zeros and a fail on term tests worth 10% and a NS in three subject for the poor exam results.

At the end of the year there was a mix up in the exams office and I didn't have my results sent out to me. The notice board only had information that I failed. I took two weeks to meet him but eventually I was able to go to my tutor about my results to get a copy and was told that he would find out what subjects I failed and get a copy of my results to me. The copy of results came two weeks before I would have to sit retests.

That said I decided the next year my tutor could jump out the window for all I cared and made appointments with the senior tutor when ever I had issues. Generally I would have to wait a few days to see her but it was better than dealing with my own tutor since she wass there regularly and was able to help me. There are definitely good tutors cause I've heard good things with friends but there are some **** ones out there too.

Unregistered.

Jonathan wrote: »

While the tutor system is great in theory, in practice is it not as effective as you romantically claim in your blog.

You currently have two distinct groups of people tutoring in TCD today:

• Academics who genuinely care about, and wish to help students.
• Academics who don't care about the students, but are tutoring to pass the taking an active part in college life proficiency when going for promotion.

It is pot luck which tutor you are assigned when you enter the college.

Unfortunately, I was assigned a member of staff from group two when I entered college. I tried to meet my tutor several times during freshers week in first year as suggested. My tutor was not there several times, and when I did finally meet him/her, I was told in polite terms to piss off and come back during his/her clinic hours in two weeks time. Needless to say that was my last dealing with him/her throughout my four years of college.

I'm not the only person to have a negative experience with this person, and I know many other students who have other bad tutors. Conversely I also know many others who have good tutors, including one tutor who meets with students once a semester for a chat and a tea/coffee, even if there is nothing in particular up.

Throughout my time in college I found it easier to approach lecturers directly should the need arise, and everyone that I approached was more than willing to chat.

Pet wrote: »

I don't disagree with your point Jonathan, but surely the proposed changes will only widen the pool of tutors falling into the latter group and exacerbate the problem?

You can always ask for a new tutor.

blucey

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

In as a first year it took me three weeks to find out he was on a break from the college.

In my second term I had health problems around the time of the term tests including passing out during one and missing two more in hospital. It took two weeks for him to get back to me on how to get a medical exemption for the term tests and I got the information after the deadline to get in personal circumstances form. Had I got the form in before the deadline those 3 tests wouldn't count for me and I would have been marked extra on final exams but because I didn't get the forms in on time I got two zeros and a fail on term tests worth 10% and a NS in three subject for the poor exam results.

At the end of the year there was a mix up in the exams office and I didn't have my results sent out to me. The notice board only had information that I failed. I took two weeks to meet him but eventually I was able to go to my tutor about my results to get a copy and was told that he would find out what subjects I failed and get a copy of my results to me. The copy of results came two weeks before I would have to sit retests.

That said I decided the next year my tutor could jump out the window for all I cared and made appointments with the senior tutor when ever I had issues. Generally I would have to wait a few days to see her but it was better than dealing with my own tutor since she wass there regularly and was able to help me. There are definitely good tutors cause I've heard good things with friends but there are some **** ones out there too.

No doubt there are good and bad tutors ; no doubt all tutors are sometimes better sometimes worse. How will making ALL staff (go on just think of some of my colleagues ...:) ) be tutor-liable improve the system.

chunkylover4

There is also an issue with students being allocated to tutors outside of their own department which this would remedy nevertheless forcing lecturers to take on this role certainly looks like it will damage the quality of what can be a very important service.

blucey

chunkylover4 wrote: »

There is also an issue with students being allocated to tutors outside of their own department which this would remedy nevertheless forcing lecturers to take on this role certainly looks like it will damage the quality of what can be a very important service.

There probably isn't too much of the difficulty, in reality, with your tutor being outside of your area of undergraduate study. In fact, the only thing can be said for this proposal is that it would give people a greater connection with lecturers in their own area. But for the most part the problems that tutors deal with are more generic to students than they are to particular undergraduate disciplines. The key point here is that the University is attempting to save a vanishingly small percentage of its operating budget by making a change which will inevitably have an impact upon something that is at the core, for good or ill, of Trinity experience.
It might be worth contacting your tutor, by e-mail is usually a good idea, outlining any concerns you may have, suggestions, etc in relation to this proposed change. It might be worth also contacting the students union, to see if they have a view, or if not in assisting them to develop same.

blucey

blucey wrote: »

The key point here is that the University is... ...making a change which will inevitably have an impact upon something that is at the core, for good or ill, of Trinity experience.

How is having a tutor something that is at the core of the "Trinity experience"? Seems like you must have a really nice tutor and are just scared of losing them. Most people I know have never met with their tutor, and I've heard countless stories of people trying to contact their tutor and their tutor never getting back to them. Particularly in the science areas, where (as far as I can see) many tutors see their research as being their job, their lecturing as being an inconvenient obligation, and tutoring as merely a title.

It might be worth contacting your tutor, by e-mail is usually a good idea

This line in itself shows that you must not have had much experience with the extremely unfortunate situation of having a bad tutor.

I'm not badmouthing all tutors, there's a lot of really good ones out there, and some not-great-but-not-bad ones out there too. But being stuck with a bad tutor isn't a rare occurrence, and is a huge disadvantage. It's easy to say "ask for a different tutor", but things just don't work that way. You'd have to explain why you're not happy with your tutor, which is effectively equivalent to lodging a complaint. It's unlikely these things would stay anonymous and it could cause real problems and tension for you especially if the tutor you've complained against is your lecturer. There's also the fact that it just wouldn't be worth it unless you had an actual issue you needed sorted, as it would be hassle, so you'd be trying to deal with the problem at hand rather than concentrating on getting a new tutor, who might end up being just as useless as the last one.

At the end of the day, if the new system doesn't work, we can always change back, or on to something new, but the current system certainly needs a shake up.

blucey

true-or-false wrote: »

How is having a tutor something that is at the core of the "Trinity experience"? Seems like you must have a really nice tutor and are just scared of losing them. Most people I know have never met with their tutor, and I've heard countless stories of people trying to contact their tutor and their tutor never getting back to them. Particularly in the science areas, where (as far as I can see) many tutors see their research as being their job, their lecturing as being an inconvenient obligation, and tutoring as merely a title.


This line in itself shows that you must not have had much experience with the extremely unfortunate situation of having a bad tutor.

I'm not badmouthing all tutors, there's a lot of really good ones out there, and some not-great-but-not-bad ones out there too. But being stuck with a bad tutor isn't a rare occurrence, and is a huge disadvantage. It's easy to say "ask for a different tutor", but things just don't work that way. You'd have to explain why you're not happy with your tutor, which is effectively equivalent to lodging a complaint. It's unlikely these things would stay anonymous and it could cause real problems and tension for you especially if the tutor you've complained against is your lecturer. There's also the fact that it just wouldn't be worth it unless you had an actual issue you needed sorted, as it would be hassle, so you'd be trying to deal with the problem at hand rather than concentrating on getting a new tutor, who might end up being just as useless as the last one.

At the end of the day, if the new system doesn't work, we can always change back, or on to something new, but the current system certainly needs a shake up.

err....checking the op is always good....because then T-o-F you might see this http://people.tcd.ie/blucey

changing tutor DOES NOT require you say word one. Its a simple request, done regularly. http://www.tcd.ie/Senior_Tutor/faq/#Q3 What you are alleging is not only factually incorrect, its also, frankly, a bit of a slur on the tutorial system. Let me say as someone 20 years in TCD as an academic and 17 as a tutor I have never heard one word outside the appropriate channels (as in, I needed to to do my job) about a student issue in a tutorial situation. Not.one.word.

So, check your facts, please. And stop generalising...

blucey

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

When a lecturer who is taking a semester off is assigned as a tutor you know there is something wrong with the system.

Yes, they havent got a semester off. They MAY have no teaching for the semester but the only way one can "take a semester off" in TCD is to apply for a sabbatical via council and that generates amongst other things a pro-tutor for the semester.

blucey

blucey wrote: »

err....checking the op is always good....because then T-o-F you might see this http://people.tcd.ie/blucey

That's true, and I apologise, I was only scanning through and had no intention of posting until I saw the last few posts, so never went back to read the OP as I wasn't really addressing it.

changing tutor DOES NOT require you say word one. Its a simple request, done regularly. http://www.tcd.ie/Senior_Tutor/faq/#Q3 What you are alleging is not only factually incorrect, its also, frankly, a bit of a slur on the tutorial system. Let me say as someone 20 years in TCD as an academic and 17 as a tutor I have never heard one word outside the appropriate channels (as in, I needed to to do my job) about a student issue in a tutorial situation. Not.one.word.

Well as I said, I'm not saying all tutors are bad. I just find it hard to believe that absolutely everyone is completely professional particularly since the tutor in question would most likely have been neglecting his duties as a tutor. So he'll know that a student will have asked to have another tutor as he would have to know that he isn't their tutor anymore.

So, check your facts, please. And stop generalising...

I realise that now, regarding the ins and outs of changing tutor, but most of what I said about some tutors being very negligent comes from seeing one friend in particular getting a very raw deal with who they got as a tutor. I also have heard many stories of students (quite often from the horse's mouth) of getting ignored by tutors or tutors being very unhelpful. I myself have a nice enough tutor, and I wouldn't feel it's necessary to change tutors, but he/she is undoubtedly extremely uninterested in answering queries or even being aware of things that I would have expected him/her to be aware of.

Also, as an aside, there's no need to PM me to let me know you've replied to something I've said. I have apologised for jumping the gun (isn't the first time and probably won't be the last) but if you still want to reply to this I'll be checking back on the thread again, so I'll see it here.

blucey

true-or-false wrote: »

That's true, and I apologise, I was only scanning through and had no intention of posting until I saw the last few posts, so never went back to read the OP as I wasn't really addressing it.


Well as I said, I'm not saying all tutors are bad. I just find it hard to believe that absolutely everyone is completely professional particularly since the tutor in question would most likely have been neglecting his duties as a tutor. So he'll know that a student will have asked to have another tutor as he would have to know that he isn't their tutor anymore.

I realise that now, regarding the ins and outs of changing tutor, but most of what I said about some tutors being very negligent comes from seeing one friend in particular getting a very raw deal with who they got as a tutor. I also have heard many stories of students (quite often from the horse's mouth) of getting ignored by tutors or tutors being very unhelpful. I myself have a nice enough tutor, and I wouldn't feel it's necessary to change tutors, but he/she is undoubtedly extremely uninterested in answering queries or even being aware of things that I would have expected him/her to be aware of.

Also, as an aside, there's no need to PM me to let me know you've replied to something I've said. I have apologised for jumping the gun (isn't the first time and probably won't be the last) but if you still want to reply to this I'll be checking back on the thread again, so I'll see it here.

or that the person and they were not able to resolve the issue, and someone more senior might; or that the person wanted to be with a tutor of another gender; or that the tutee wanted to be with someone closer to ther area of interest; or with a tutor experienced in X; or ....
Believe me, when a tutee goes elsewhere, its almost never because someone has been 'neglectin' their duties.

Also, sometimes, being ignored is the best thing. Not every issue, believe me, needs a tutor to be involved. Tutors are NOT mommy/daddy. They are NOT miracle workers. They are NOT there to get people off regardless. Sometimes ignoring the issue forces the person to deal with it themselves. This aint second level

TrollHammaren

Are people really arguing about whether or not a tutor is necessary?

During the 4 years I spent in TCD so far I found my tutor's help indispensible. A bad tutor not doing his/her job is not a valid argument against the tutor system - changing your tutor is a simple process. If the prevalence of bad tutors is really such an issue then the students' union, S2S, or whoever should make it clear in first year that if you're not happy with your tutor you can apply for a change.

Jesus, I can't understand some of you people :P

andrew

I can't imagine these changes making the tutorial system any better at all. While some people who wouldn't have opted to become tutors might end up as good tutors, I'd say that most would see it as just another duty to be fulfilled because now it's mandatory and if they don't they won't get promoted some time in the future. As such, they'll do the bare minimum to get by as a tutor. Obviously, the idea isn't to make the system better, it's to save money; seems like they're grasping at straws if a saving that small is being considered (?)