Leave pipes exposed

rock22

I am homeowner with some DIY skills rather than a plumber. My house, a bungalow, is from 70's and I have had to replace copper pipe in a number of locations because of leaks. In each case the pipe was set in a concrete floor and fixing has meant considerable mess and then re-decoration ( tiling etc). The problem in most cases is that the pipe was badly bent and kinked and had failed on the kink. ( It appears the pipe was roughly bent rather than using a pipe bender.)


I am considering getting a plumber to re-plumb the house, using Qualpex or similar and running the larger pipes through the attic, dropping the pipes as needed in a corner and maybe boxing in but being reeasonably easily accessible. In other words, no more digging up floors. I should say that at the moment the only pipes are hot and cold to bathroom and a hot to kitchen. ( the cold in kitchen is direct mains ).

Is this a crazy, cheap way of going about things or am I being sensible.

Now I am off the remake the floor in the bathroom (again) !

thanks in advance for any comments , advice, ideas.

yoshytoshy

Thats usually the way things are done in concrete floored houses.(exposed when the work is retrofitting.like what your doing)
A good plumber would have a better idea on how to do it ,as neat as possible.
Copper should never be exposed to concrete or cement ,its highly corrosive to it.
Edited to be more clear.

heinbloed

Copper pipes are the standard material for UFH. Copper (or any other metal)is NOT corroded by alkaline cement but by acetikc environs.
Note that there are different qualities of copper used for plumbing.

If a copper pipe burried in cement breaks at the bend it could be a case of physical strain (expanding and contracting with temperature changes) in combination with sulfuric concrete (hardly used anymore nowadays).

ralph_wiggum

i was always taught when i was serving my time to never leave copper exposed in concrete because it will corrode. are you saying that was bull**** then?

Outkast_IRE

heinbloed wrote: »

Copper pipes are the standard material for UFH. Copper (or any other metal)is NOT corroded by alkaline cement but by acetikc environs.
Note that there are different qualities of copper used for plumbing.

If a copper pipe burried in cement breaks at the bend it could be a case of physical strain (expanding and contracting with temperature changes) in combination with sulfuric concrete (hardly used anymore nowadays).

In fairness copper isnt the standard material for UFH , i havent ever heard of it being standard. the costs would be multiples of what PEX pipe would be .

Or are you confusing Under Floor heating UFH with simply heating pipes running to a rad buried in the floor, in which case they are copper in older homes , but should always have insulation on them where they are in contact with cement or concrete, unless you get every batch of cement or concrete tested which nobody will do for a home .

heinbloed

Outkast_IRE wrote :

In fairness copper isnt the standard material for UFH , i havent ever heard of it being standard. the costs would be multiples of what PEX pipe would be .

Copper is indeed the standard material for UFH. All plastic pipe/mixed material pipe manufacturers I know of refer to copper when pricing and laying out the thermal distribution/conductivity.
Copper pipes are used for wet UFH since about 50 years, plastic pipes didn't exist for this purpose then.

It came with Chile's military coup which started the plastic pipe bussiness, back in the 1970's. Or President Allendes plans to bring the profits of the copper mines into state control.

The advantage of plastic is it's price, not much else. It is the cheaper stuff, not the better.

yoshytoshy

Heinbloed ,thanks for everything ,you're the best

heinbloed

I know....

Here a picture of a copper UFH installed with copper heat reflector strips


http://www.schoener-wohnen.de/_components/includes/partner/images/kupferVisual.jpg

and a short history lesson here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underfloor_heating

( see chapter "Hydronic systems") for copper.

Ask a plumber about the specific advatages of copper pipes, like diffusion tightness (nearly 100%), thermal conductivity (any doubts?, pressure resistance (at least ten times more resistant compared to PEX), expanding and shrinking under thermal exposure (only a 1/10 compared to PEX), the friction resistance (half of that of PEX) etc...

In fact a copper UFH can be installed with a lower height than a PEX UFH. Since a thinner pipe diameter can be choosen.

yoshytoshy

If anyone is googling the internet about copper in concrete ,never let copper come in contact with it.
Gas pipes do not expand and contract and theres a reason why coated copper is used for this.

Outkast_IRE

heinbloed wrote: »

I know....

Here a picture of a copper UFH installed with copper heat reflector strips


http://www.schoener-wohnen.de/_components/includes/partner/images/kupferVisual.jpg

and a short history lesson here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underfloor_heating

( see chapter "Hydronic systems") for copper.

Ask a plumber about the specific advatages of copper pipes, like diffusion tightness (nearly 100%), thermal conductivity (any doubts?, pressure resistance (at least ten times more resistant compared to PEX), expanding and shrinking under thermal exposure (only a 1/10 compared to PEX), the friction resistance (half of that of PEX) etc...

In fact a copper UFH can be installed with a lower height than a PEX UFH. Since a thinner pipe diameter can be choosen.

In fairness just because you can do something with a given material doesnt make it the standard, in this country especially plastic pipe is the standard material for UFH i would like to hear from anyone who has worked on a copper underfloor system in this country.

I am a plumber i dont need to be told the advantages or disadvantages of copper vs qualpex i work with both materials daily , i know their limits .

I have been to far too many homes with damaged copper pipes underground from corrosion to suggest trying it .

also your article states "Older materials such as Polybutylene (PB) and copper or steel pipe are still used in some locales or for specialized applications"

also "various types of pipes are available specifically for hydronic underfloor heating and cooling systems and are generally made from polyethylene including PEX"

Even the articles you linked to says plastic pipe is the standard copper is the exception .

heinbloed

Before we discuss the wise installation of pipes in cement the term "standard" seems to need explanation, causing some confusion.
As far as I know "standard" does not mean " normal" (or "avarage" or the like). "Standard" stands for a reference.

Compare it with the terms "length" or "volume". Meter or liter.

No one has to use these terms, as long as they're understood in a conversation it needs no reference to them.
When I say - or whoever- the standard reference material used by PEX pipe manufacturers is copper pipe then this is a statement explaining how PEX pipes are sold, their specifications are refered to.

And when a copper pipe based UFH is used as a reference then this reference is the STANDARD. The point from which to look onwards. The material or method to be used as a reference - when looking at something else like PEX.

The standard method (or material) for wet UFH is still copper piping. Since it was the most established, at the time the most known method for domestic situations.

All other methods and materials had to be compared to this standard.
And are so by the PEX industry, nowadays in their reference material.
Be it the price, the durability, the work men hours. Copper piping is today's standard.

That other materials are more versatile, cheaper does not mean the standard material or method isn't used anymore. Be it for reference or be it for the actual job.

About the OP's problem:

In the past concrete was used which is not allowed anymore, I refered already to sulfur rich concrete. Also aluminia rich concrete was used, and propably a mixture of both.
Concrete was a dumping place for unwanted waste products. And still is....
I saw nails corroding in a house where I lived, nailed into dry concrete block walls. When drilling into these walls (build around 1980 in Cork) the dust stank of sulfur.

Nowadays concretes are specified for their jobs, their composition is standardised, at least to minimum values it has to meet, to "standard". See above for the term "standard".

And the same goes for copper pipes: in the past only very few 'standards' had to be met when selling/working copper piping. Diameter, thickness of the copper. And the rest was left for wishes: composition of metals, pressure resistance. Food quality was hardly an issue ("don't drink from a copper pipe..").
And these past time installations we see failing nowadays.

The composition of both - non-standardised copper and non-standardised cement/concrete - led to problems: the copper erroding, the steel reinforcement in the concrete (sharing the space with copper) as well. And the concrete swelling and weakening as well.

Both materials (concrete and copper)can be combined in a safe way and be made long-lasting.
But one has to know what the job involves.

Contact a civil engineer if in doubt. Or play safe, use plastic....

Outkast_IRE

Just out of curiosity is your first language english?

I work with tradesmen every day and i am one, and if your talking about " The Standard way of doing things " it would always refer to the way most commonly practiced or done in any trade. Thats just the way its said.

Billy Bunting

It's heinbloed world again :rolleyes:

In my world back in the 80's it was quite common place, some would even say "standard" to see heating systems installed with drops to rads on the lower floors, this was due to the amount of ploblems caused by copper pipes laid in concrete floors that failed.

Sparkpea

Billy Bunting wrote: »

It's heinbloed world again :rolleyes:

In my world back in the 80's it was quite common place, some would even say "standard" to see heating systems installed with drops to rads on the lower floors, this was due to the amount of ploblems caused by copper pipes laid in concrete floors that failed.

true but was also cheaper to do than tracking which was the main attraction I'd say.

rock22

Thanks for all the replies. i seem to have created a little more heat than I expected!

I am taking from the discussion that what i propose is reasonably sensible. I am taking on board the advice that a plumber would lay ut the scheme in the neatest way possible and this is the way I intend going.

Without getting into the sematics of the use the the word 'standard' I know , at least in my house, that the underfloor copper piping is corroding and untimately ll will need replacing. I am now much more confident about using qualpex or similar where appropriate.

thanks again