Teenage councelling - Mother refusing

lucy2010

A very raw area.........

As the mothers signature is required for their child to receive councelling; what do you do if the mum refuses? If the child is now a suicide risk what do you do ? Does the school involve social services despite one parent being 100% interested in the welfare of their child ?

Your GP is your best bet in this situation ...If a GP advises counselling and writes a referral letter that might be enough to persuade a reluctant parent that counselling is a good course of action....but you have to listen to all sides sometimes people have a real concern about a course of action.

lucy2010

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

Bluefoam

The first thing that comes to my mind is that the mother is trying to stop the child from revealing something to the councilor...

This raises many questions.

willow tree

what age 'child'? ive never heard this.. if someone is suicidal and there mother doesnt want them to get help, well i would think the mother would be overruled by any 'powers that be'.. who said that you need mothers permission?just interested..i thought a teen could just go to a therapist?

lucy2010

The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation. Any councellor in the past cannot see the child ( 15) without the mothers written consent as she is her " legal" guardian. This is the 3rd time & we simply do not no what to do now.

LadyMayBelle

Where there is a risk of suicide, situations change. The parent's consent isn't needed in that incident but perhaps the school do not feel she as at risk but want to catch up with her before things head that way..why haven't the parent's been to the GP and why are they stoppnig her seeing someone when help has been offerd three times?? Does she want to see someone?

Something's not very clear here.

seamus

lucy2010 wrote: »

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.

lucy2010 wrote: »

The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation. Any councellor in the past cannot see the child ( 15) without the mothers written consent as she is her " legal" guardian. This is the 3rd time & we simply do not no what to do now.

I'm unclear as to what your position is on this. If you're a social services professional, then surely you have access to the resources to deal with this? If you're not, then I don't understand why the school are contacting you.

Contact the department of social protection and ask them to intervene.

Personally, if I felt that the child was at a very real risk of suicide and nobody willing to help, I wouldn't be tip-toeing around legal statutes. I would get the child some help and deal with the legal fallout afterwards.

angelfire9

lucy2010 wrote: »

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

If the parents are married, yes as he has automatic guardianship
If the parents are unmarried its not so simple!

lucy2010

Read above - its 1 parent; the mother who is blocking all this. The father has been informed by the school but the system ie the councellors cannot see her without written consent of the mother. The father wants to fix it now through whatever powers - but apart from removing the child from the mothers custody, with no doubt a scene happening & physicly taking her what can he do? - Thats the question.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.
I'm unclear as to what your position is on this. If you're a social services professional, then surely you have access to the resources to deal with this? If you're not, then I don't understand why the school are contacting you.

Contact the department of social protection and ask them to intervene.

Personally, if I felt that the child was at a very real risk of suicide and nobody willing to help, I wouldn't be tip-toeing around legal statutes. I would get the child some help and deal with the legal fallout afterwards.

Someone related to/seeing the father is my guess? Especially as the mother is the "legal guardian" in this case

willow tree

im a bit confused.. but one thing is clear, this 15 year old needs support right now, any way possible.. there is no excuse for the high level of suicide and lack of support of depressed teens in the country, the sooner we open up as a society and have school counsellors the better.. she coudl go to her dr and get a referral couldnt she?

January

I'm assuming since the school are contacting the father that he has guardianship? If so he can bring her to the doctor without the mothers permission

lucy2010

seamus wrote: »

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.
I'm unclear as to what your position is on this. If you're a social services professional, then surely you have access to the resources to deal with this? If you're not, then I don't understand why the school are contacting you.

Contact the department of social protection and ask them to intervene.

Personally, if I felt that the child was at a very real risk of suicide and nobody willing to help, I wouldn't be tip-toeing around legal statutes. I would get the child some help and deal with the legal fallout afterwards.

Thank you Seamus - Its my partners daughter. Thats how we feel. Help her in every means possibly. We have been refused the right to see her this morning to take her to GP. SHe has been kept off school despite the school councellor having an appointment with her - kept off school to go to the cinema !!! Her phone has also been taken off her so we have no contact since in the school yesterday. No follow up.

SO apart from arriving over there & a dispute happening - hardly in best interest of child.

angelfire9

Was your partner married to the child's mother at any stage or did he not apply for legal guardianship when the child was born (if they never married)

If they were ever married he still has legal guardianship unless the child's mother went to court to have his guardianship removed (which is fairly unusual and the courts are not trigger happy in doing so)

Regardless of whether married parents separate or divorce further down the line guardianship remains in place for both parents unless court ordered otherwise

If the parents never married the father needs to get his ass in gear and start applying for guardianship NOW
If the mother objects her behaviour in relation to current issues will be taken into consideration by the courts

By the way....
If the mother of the child refused permission to the child's father to see the girl this morning unless there is a court order (barring order or protection order) in place the mother has no legal right to refuse and you could theoretically get the Gardai involved!

paperclip2

Maybe the public health nurse could also check in on your partners daughter. You usually can contact them through the local health centre or the GP's office can give you a contact number.

Would a call to the home school liaison officer be appropriate? If shes been kept out of school at 15 for no good reason then they could legitimately get involved?
Maybe you could speak to the school about that?

I hope things work out OP.

lucy2010

she was with her mother last night at the suggestion of the school, they arranged to speak with her this morning but mother has kept her off school ( in knowing this woman basicly , I would guess it is so the child doesnt speak to them). The child has contacted another principal as well as her own & asked for help; hence both them contacting us - the issue appears to be emotional abuse from the mother. On route to school & solicitor now . It has to be what is in her best interest so arriving to the home may cause further duress. Telephone & internet access have been suspended so we have no contact with her - simply just to see is she ok this morning.

They married after she was born but he is listed on her birth certificate so i dont know if that effects guardianship laws.

lucy2010

Thanks so much for all your helpful replies. Her father is simply so worried & is trying his best to stay on the right side of the law. Just to add mother has always refused a legal seperation or a divorce. - - Just to give an insight into what we are dealing with here.

angelfire9

lucy2010 wrote: »

They married after she was born but he is listed on her birth certificate so i dont know if that effects guardianship laws.

He has guardianship then

Citzens Information wrote:

Marriage after the child is born

If the parents of a child marry each other after the birth, then the father automatically becomes a joint guardian of the child. There is therefore no need to apply for guardianship rights nor is there any need for the father to adopt the child.

Source: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/legal_guardianship_and_unmarried_couples.html

This means he has every right to bring her to the doctor and if the mother refuses her to let him have custody of the child for that purpose you can call the Gardai!
Likewise he has the legal right to sign any consent forms etc etc

angelfire9

lucy2010 wrote: »

Thanks so much for all your helpful replies. Her father is simply so worried & is trying his best to stay on the right side of the law. Just to add mother has always refused a legal seperation or a divorce. - - Just to give an insight into what we are dealing with here.

FYI he can still get divorced if he wants to provided they have lived apart for the specified period
It just means the divorce will be contested and things will probably get nasty from the sounds of it!

smelltheglove

OP best of luck with this, I hope the girl is ok. Going to the school and solicitor are the best steps to take but also contact the local health nurse too as you may find that she can take steps to protect the child quicker than the solicitor, i.e. refer the issue to social services if required who can remove her from her mothers care. Also have the school put in writing their concerns for her so you have black and white evidence rather than hearsay.

metrovelvet

This is a really grey area. There have been successful lawsuits over one parent making decisions without the others consent.

Theoretically in Ireland you need a unanimous decision and signatures etc, but I have never been asked for a signature or proof of sole guarsianship either,so the reality as far as I can see is that you can do it because the doctors wont stop it, but if the other parent finds out then the meds are vulnerable to a lawsuit.

James Jones

seamus wrote: »

lucy2010 wrote: »

Can a father bring a child to the doctor without the mothers consent ?

Absolutely, provided that he has not had legal guardianship/custody removed from him.

You mean Absolutely NOT!!!

January wrote: »

I'm assuming since the school are contacting the father that he has guardianship? If so he can bring her to the doctor without the mothers permission

NO he can't.

angelfire9 wrote: »

If they were ever married he still has legal guardianship unless the child's mother went to court to have his guardianship removed (which is fairly unusual and the courts are not trigger happy in doing so)
Regardless of whether married parents separate or divorce further down the line guardianship remains in place for both parents unless court ordered otherwise!

Simply not true!!

Married parents act JOINTLY according to Section 6.-(1) of the Guardianship of Infants Act. That is why the counselor won't see the child without the mothers consent.
Guardianship CANNOT be removed from married parents according to Supreme Court precedent B. Vs B. (1970) where Judge Walsh J. stated (page 61) as follows:
"Section 6 of the Act states the equality of the parents and recognises them as the guardians of the infant; there is nothing in any provision of the Act which purports to confer on the court or any other body the power to displace either one or both of the parents from the position of guardian or guardians".

Your only hope is an emergency application to Court which can be made even if the father is unmarried and not yet a Guardian.

Morag

I suggest the father go today and talk to the principal of the school and in light of what has happened with the child being kept out of school both the father and the principal should contact socail workers as the child is at risk, asking for help and the mother is obstructing it.

James Jones

Sorry but I posted without reading all of the replies.

angelfire9 wrote: »

He has guardianship then.This means he has every right to bring her to the doctor and if the mother refuses her to let him have custody of the child for that purpose you can call the Gardai!
Likewise he has the legal right to sign any consent forms etc etc

Wrong!

metrovelvet wrote: »

This is a really grey area. There have been successful lawsuits over one parent making decisions without the others consent.

Theoretically in Ireland you need a unanimous decision and signatures etc, but I have never been asked for a signature or proof of sole guarsianship either,so the reality as far as I can see is that you can do it because the doctors wont stop it, but if the other parent finds out then the meds are vulnerable to a lawsuit.

At last! Someone who knows what they are talking about. I don't think there have been any successful lawsuits yet but there have been cases similar to this in the Equality Tribunal.

angelfire9

I was in a serious car accident with my daughter when she was 5
I was in a medically induced coma for 4 days during which time my husband (her father) made several life saving decisions as regards our daughter's health

As JOINT guardian he has the right to make those types of decisions that's what guardianship means

metrovelvet

angelfire9 wrote: »

I was in a serious car accident with my daughter when she was 5
I was in a medically induced coma for 4 days during which time my husband (her father) made several life saving decisions as regards our daughter's health

As JOINT guardian he has the right to make those types of decisions that's what guardianship means

Your husband had that right because he was your next of kin.

An unwed father would still have to negotiate with the mother's healthcare proxy if she went into a coma or was incapacitated to make any decisions.

angelfire9

metrovelvet wrote: »

Your husband had that right because he was your next of kin.

An unwed father would still have to negotiate with the mother's healthcare proxy if she went into a coma or was incapacitated to make any decisions.

When we were in the accident my mother made all the decisions regarding my care (she's a nurse) my husband made the decisions for our daughter but I would presume he had to sign off on the paperwork for both of us (i've no idea I was comatose after all)

Back on topic:
The OP's partner is married to the child's mother so legally he has the same rights and responsibilities towards his daughter as my husband had towards our daughter

willow tree

i feel so sad for that girl, she really needs support, i hope you can get her some.. if theres a family resource centre near by, they may help..

James Jones

angelfire9 wrote: »

I was in a serious car accident with my daughter when she was 5.I was in a medically induced coma for 4 days during which time my husband (her father) made several life saving decisions as regards our daughter's health.
As JOINT guardian he has the right to make those types of decisions that's what guardianship means

Angelfire, Your situation was an emergency. Check out THESE GUIDELINES which are for non emergency situations, such as counselling.


EDIT:

angelfire9 wrote: »

The OP's partner is married to the child's mother so legally he has the same rights and responsibilities towards his daughter as my husband had towards our daughter

You'd be quite shocked if you were aware of the lack of THE RESPECT FOR THE rights of separated fathers.

liliq

James Jones wrote: »

Angelfire, Your situation was an emergency. Check out THESE GUIDELINES which are for non emergency situations, such as counselling.

Risk of suicide isn't an emergency?

angelfire9

liliq wrote: »

Risk of suicide isn't an emergency?

That was my thought as well
If the child is suicidal and the mother is in denial (as appears to be the case) surely it is the father's DUTY to bring his daughter to the doctor

Ayla

Personally, if my hubby & I were estranged & I thought one of our kids was in a suicidal position but he was refusing them care, I wouldn't care about legalities. I would talk to a solicitor and the guardi just so it's all on record (and maybe I'd get their help), and I'd get any school/health professionals reports for the file, but wild horses couldn't keep me away from helping my child.

Surely, if the case went to court there would be enough evidence that the mother is neglecting, or maybe deliberately harming, the child. As the father (who, if I understand correctly, is still technically married to the mother) he has the responsibility to help the child who is clearly calling out for help but unable to obtain it herself b/c of her age. This is what Social Services & the guardi are for, and the father has to be there to help her get away from the mother.

James Jones

liliq wrote: »

James Jones wrote: »

Angelfire, Your situation was an emergency. Check out THESE GUIDELINES which are for non emergency situations, such as counselling.

Risk of suicide isn't an emergency?

Who, other than the father and lucy2010, has said the girl is suicidal? If the school claim she is, then they should inform a psychiatrist and bring the matter to the attention of the Gardai. There is notheing to stop them.
If , on the other hand, the father thinks she is suicidal and he takes any action but is found to be in the wrong, he jeopardizes any future contact he has with his daughter and it sounds as if she will need him.

Ayla wrote: »

Personally, if my hubby & I were estranged & I thought one of our kids was in a suicidal position but he was refusing them care, I wouldn't care about legalities.

You are obviously unaware of the way the Family Law courts deal with fathers.

Ayla wrote: »

Surely, if the case went to court there would be enough evidence that the mother is neglecting, or maybe deliberately harming, the child.

No evidence has been mentioned yet so I don't know how you can make such an assumption.

Ayla wrote: »

As the father (who, if I understand correctly, is still technically married to the mother) he has the responsibility to help the child who is clearly calling out for help but unable to obtain it herself b/c of her age. This is what Social Services & the guardi are for, and the father has to be there to help her get away from the mother.

Yes. This is what he should do but if Social Services find there is no abuse, then the father will have to live with the aftermath.

Ayla

they [the school] arranged to speak with her this morning but mother has kept her off school ... the child has contacted another principal as well as her own & asked for help; hence both them contacting us

The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation.

The father has been informed by the school

SHe has been kept off school despite the school councellor having an appointment with her

Well, if the school records/failure to show for appointments/a request from help from the child herself doesn't count as "evidence" i don't know what does.

CK2010

if shes 15 she can go to her GP without a parent.
she can bring a friend for support if she wants. you yourself can go with her if she wanted.

this way she might get a referral for a counsellor and it'll be put on her notes as an issue she herself wants dealt with. if mother refuses there is proof on her records that the child wants it.

im sure she can say shes going shopping or something to her mother in order to get away and someone can meet her at the GP, even your partner.

record everything from the school (missed meetings etc) and GP visit dates, contact the public health nurse, and then get some legal advice.

hope you get it sorted.

James Jones

Ayla wrote: »

Quote:
they [the school] arranged to speak with her this morning but mother has kept her off school ... the child has contacted another principal as well as her own & asked for help; hence both them contacting us
Quote:
The school have contacted us yet again to make us aware of an alarming situation.
Quote:
The father has been informed by the school
Quote:
SHe has been kept off school despite the school councellor having an appointment with her.

Well, if the school records/failure to show for appointments/a request from help from the child herself doesn't count as "evidence" i don't know what does.

From the looks of it, all of the above is Hearsay evidence and documentation would be needed to verify it. Has the school kept records of all contact?

CK2010 wrote: »

if shes 15 she can go to her GP without a parent.

I think you might be wrong there. According to Section 23.-(1) of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 "The consent of a minor who has attained the age of 16 years to any surgical, medical or dental treatment which, in the absence of consent, would constitute a trespass to his or her person, shall be as effective as it would be if he or she were of full age". Maybe this has been amended recently but I don't think so.

CK2010

James Jones wrote: »

From the looks of it, all of the above is Hearsay evidence and documentation would be needed to verify it. Has the school kept records of all contact?

I think you might be wrong there. According to Section 23.-(1) of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 "The consent of a minor who has attained the age of 16 years to any surgical, medical or dental treatment which, in the absence of consent, would constitute a trespass to his or her person, shall be as effective as it would be if he or she were of full age". Maybe this has been amended recently but I don't think so.

well i guess not all GPs know of this, or it has changed, because i went to my GP alone at 14 and recieved medicine as well. and again at 15 with another GP. no parent needed. so it could be worth a try with her own GP.

lucy2010

Good morning & thanks for all your responses. Everyone has a different view which I appreciate but what boiled back here was the Welfare of a child ( shes still a child at 15) .You would think it would be simple but god what we have been through since yesterday . Between the school authorities & a solicitor we got her to a GP. Then with GP, school authorities & solicitor as well as the guards being involved the child has been removed from the care of her mother & has received emergency councelling & emergency medical treatment .. She was an immediate risk & we were all right to be concerned. Now it was not as straight forward as above but the bottom line is the child is safe now & doing so much better today. She is talking openly & whilst there is a lot still to work at a start has been made to improving her welfare. It will now be a long battle in the courts to keep the situation as it is now but a child is now receiving the proper care.We were lucky & had a team of different people all working together to help her - The next child may not be so lucky as the system is so terribly flawed. What gets lost in the arguing is the childs welfare which thank God now is now being properly looked after. Thanks again for all your advice.

Daisy M

Best of luck to you all I hope it works out for your partners child.

metrovelvet

CK2010 wrote: »

well i guess not all GPs know of this, or it has changed, because i went to my GP alone at 14 and recieved medicine as well. and again at 15 with another GP. no parent needed. so it could be worth a try with her own GP.

Its because the meds in Ireland dont follow legal protocols.

Ayla

OP - first & of the only importance, I'm glad your partner's child is getting the care that she needs.

JamesJones, all you have done during this entire thread is shot down whatever opinions/suggestions and comments were made while backing up your "arguments" with legalities. Of course it's essential to work within the legal structure but if you were the OP, what would you have done? If you had a genuine concern for your child or that of your partner, but the child's mother was in the way, what exactly would you do?

James Jones

Ayla wrote: »

OP - first & of the only importance, I'm glad your partner's child is getting the care that she needs.

+1

Ayla wrote: »

JamesJones, all you have done during this entire thread is shot down whatever opinions/suggestions and comments were made while backing up your "arguments" with legalities. Of course it's essential to work within the legal structure but if you were the OP, what would you have done? If you had a genuine concern for your child or that of your partner, but the child's mother was in the way, what exactly would you do?

The problem is, Ayla, when parents disagree, the legalities is what will count in the long run.
10 years ago, before I separated, I would have advised this girls father to just go to the mothers house and take her with him, because he is the father and it is his job to protect her.


NOW,
having been through the mill, I would be much more cautious. My story HERE and HERE might give you an idea why I would be so cautious given that it resulted in THESE GUIDELINES being introduced but ignored. You ever hear of the constitutional protection of the family? The State authorities walk all over those when it suits them.

EDIT: By the way, I'm quite shocked at the general lack of understanding or Guardianship among parents but I suppose I was the same before I learnt the hard way.

Ayla

Ok, I can see that your story consists of being left out of the loop concerning your daughter's medical care. Definitely a bad/wrong situation, but not exactly what the OP's facing...

Here (based only on what the OP's said, b/c that's all the info we have), the child was directly suffering due to the willful neglect of her mother. Appointments weren't kept, references were ignored, requests for councelling were unauthorised. Any court of law would recognize that the mother was, in this case, acting irresponsibly. That is where the father - as mutually legal guardian of the child - has the right and responsibility to interceed. That's why I said that if the case went to court his rights would (or at least should) be respected.

Btw, you haven't answered my question of what would you do in the OP's case?

metrovelvet

Ayla wrote: »

Ok, I can see that your story consists of being left out of the loop concerning your daughter's medical care. Definitely a bad/wrong situation, but not exactly what the OP's facing...

Here (based only on what the OP's said, b/c that's all the info we have), the child was directly suffering due to the willful neglect of her mother. Appointments weren't kept, references were ignored, requests for councelling were unauthorised. Any court of law would recognize that the mother was, in this case, acting irresponsibly. That is where the father - as mutually legal guardian of the child - has the right and responsibility to interceed. That's why I said that if the case went to court his rights would (or at least should) be respected.

Btw, you haven't answered my question of what would you do in the OP's case?

When you are dealing with single or divorced parents any deviation from accepted norms of standard protocols will possibly be held against you in court in a character assassination, so people in these circumstances cant go renegade or it will possibly be held against them at a later date.

So if a non custodial, even with guardianship gets medical treatment behind the back of the custodial parent, without legal back up such as a judge's order or whatever, they can get in big trouble or it be marked against them.

Take something like vaccinations. Its pretty standard to follow the accepted recommendations of vaccines. If one parent deviates to obstruct that accepted norm it will be used against them.

There could be many reasons why someone would refuse psychiatric intervention for their child.

And no one has ever asked me in Ireland for proof of sole guardianship, from GP to surgeons. NEVER.

Ayla

But that's the thing, the father & mother are still married! Apparently the mother refused him a divorce:

Her father is simply so worried & is trying his best to stay on the right side of the law. Just to add mother has always refused a legal seperation or a divorce. - - Just to give an insight into what we are dealing with here.

metrovelvet

Ayla wrote: »

But that's the thing, the father & mother are still married! Apparently the mother refused him a divorce:

Thats a legal technicality. They are still behaving as seperated parents. And everything JJ and I are saying applies.

Ayla

Doesn't bloddy matter...let's look at the facts as we know them:

1) The parents are married but the father doesn't live with the mother.
2) The father is still involved in the child's life
3) The father attempted to get a divorce but the mother refused even a seperation
4) The mother is willfully neglecting to care for the child
5) Both parents have guardianship and custody (even if the child mainly resides with her mother, custody was never refused to the father)

The father does have rights, or at least he can get Social Services involved if he's scared of the legalities.

Again, I've would say that I wouldn't care about legalities if I was the father. The care of the child is the only priority, and they could put me in jail if required until the "legalities" were fought through.

January

If we're going to get into another debate about rights, please take the discussion to Humanities as it has no place here. The OP came looking for advice and they've gotten it.

metrovelvet

Im not arguing about rights at all. Im saying that making unilateral medical decisions without legal back up could affect a custody suit up the road.

Ayla - you would care about the legalities if it meant you wouldnt see your kids if a judge felt you were behaving out of line.

Ayla

Metrovelvet - that (the making medical decisions unilateraly) is exactly what the mother's doing now by refusing the daughter the care recommended for her. And I hardly think that a father insisting on this care/treatment/counceling would be seen as being "out of line" by any judge. Surely if the child has now been taken away from the mother any court would see that the father's actions were justified.

In any case, as said before, I'm glad the child is now in good care & being looked after.