Islamic Imam's have begun signing a petition supporting evolution.

Turtwig

We, the undersigned Imams of the mosques, assert that the Qur’an is the primary source of spiritual inspiration and of values for us, though not for everyone, in our country. We believe that the timeless truths of the Qur’an may comfortably coexist with the discoveries of modern science. As Imams we urge public school boards to affirm their commitment to the teaching of the science of evolution. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
Linky

How many will sign it?

Note : 13,000 Christian and 500 Jewish clerics have signed similar petitions (thus far). Probably isn't going to have any impact, but still a nice gesture.:)

liamw

What 'form of truth' is religion anyway?

mikhail

liamw wrote: »

What 'form of truth' is religion anyway?

The same form as poetry.

Bloody Nipples

Malty_T wrote: »

Probably isn't going to have any impact, but still a nice gesture.:)

In the fall of 2004, I worked with clergy throughout Wisconsin to prepare a statement in support of teaching evolution. We were called to action by a series of anti-evolution policies passed by the school board in Grantsburg, WI. The response was overwhelming. In a few weeks, nearly 200 clergy signed the statement, which we sent to the Grantsburg school board on December 16, 2004. Additionally, groups of educators and scientists sent letters to the Grantsburg School Board and to the Superintendent of Schools protesting these policies. In response to all of this attention, as well as the efforts of others, the Grantsburg School Board retracted their policies.

You never know.

Dave!

Awesome I love this line:

the Qur’an is the primary source of spiritual inspiration and of values for us, though not for everyone, in our country

Sam Harris (*swoon*) often points out that there's no significant 'Reformed Islam' movement or group around, no wishy-washy a-la-carte brand of Islam like there is in the other major religions. Dunno if that's the case, but if not, hopefully this turns into one.

Bottle_of_Smoke

This is actually pretty important. Compare Catholics or Anglicans (who's leaders have endorsed evolution)to evangelical presbyterian types for believing in evolution. If Imams are saying this all the Muslims who thought they weren't allowed believe in evolution can immediately accept it.

Sad state of affairs like but anything that undermines the lies about evolution gets my backing

robindch

Can't imagine dead-one having much to do with this

Galvasean

Good to see IMO. Anything that informs people that you can still have your religion but accept evolutio sounds good in my book.

dead one

Malty_T wrote: »

How many will sign it?

Note : 13,000 Christian and 500 Jewish clerics have signed similar petitions (thus far). Probably isn't going to have any impact, but still a nice gesture.:)

Theory of Evolution has no support in Islam.......... These imams have more faith in money / material than Quran..... Good hyena tactic to spread evolution...

liamw wrote: »

What 'form of truth' is religion anyway?

Truth is clear from falsehood ... It has no forms..... Islam isn't religion.....It's a complete code to live a life........... These clerics are signup up their faith in the name of materialism. These clerics are scarifying their faith at the altar of materialism. They get material for selling their faith.... Poor dealing by these cleric...They don't know material matter is made up of 99.99 % of nothingness..... Right!!!

robindch wrote: »

Can't imagine dead-one having much to do with this

Dead-one isn't materialist.Materialism rejects all ideas of Special Creation, it relies on the Theory of Evolution to explain itself..... I believe in special creation.....

robindch

dead one wrote: »

Dead-one isn't materialist.

Are you Markov chain?

dead one

robindch wrote: »

Are you Markov chain?

We are all dead man walking.

ShooterSF

dead one wrote: »

Theory of Evolution has no support in Islam..........

But you said before .........................

For humans, no it doesn't. Humans were not evolved from anything But however, both the Noble Quran and Science claim that animals developed into many physical shapes and forms.

So it has at least some support in Islam right............???!!!!!!1!!!!!!!

charlemont

It depends on the branch of Islam people follow as some Muslims dont believe in evolution as in "man evolved from apes.

Islam generally has a good relationship with science, They had a lot of advanced shipping instruments before we did.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Are you Markov chain?

Help I'm getting flashbacks

Title: imam's what? :pac:

Ok back to being serious - this is great news.

Zombrex

dead one wrote: »

Dead-one isn't materialist.Materialism rejects all ideas of Special Creation, it relies on the Theory of Evolution to explain itself..... I believe in special creation.....

Meh, why would we listen to you, that is your wickedness talking, you are a slave to Shayṭan deceptions

dead one

ShooterSF wrote: »

But you said before .........................
So it has at least some support in Islam right............???!!!!!!1!!!!!!!

I am talking about materialist philosophy of evolution....and it has no support in islam........ like darwin theory of evolution..
Materialism tells....... that everything in the universe is matter,, without any true spiritual or intellectual existence... Philosophy of Materialism refers that existence is explainable only in material terms, with no accounting of spirit or consciousness.... Here is link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

charlemont wrote: »

It depends on the branch of Islam people follow as some Muslims dont believe in evolution as in "man evolved from apes.

No branch of Islam supports materialistic evolution .... and no muslim believe in evolution as "man evolved from apes".... can you give reference for what you said...

Wicknight wrote: »

Meh, why would we listen to you, that is your wickedness talking, you are a slave to Shayṭan deceptions

Here you say that I am a slave to shaytan deceptions.....Shaytan in Arabic means the far thing.....Shaytan main role is to deceive mankind...... and Materialism is good trick played by shaytan to deceive mankind......... shaytan biggest weapon is the desires...... He makes things logical in this material world to deceive mankind........ You believe in all the tricks of shytan....... You don't believe in the guild lines of God....

O mankind! Be afraid of your Lord (by keeping your duty to Him and avoiding all evil), and fear a Day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor a son avail aught for his father. Verily, the Promise of Allâh is true, let not then this (worldly) present life deceive you, nor let the chief deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allâh. (Luqman 31:33)

Gordon

Malty_T wrote: »

How many will sign it?

Note : 13,000 Christian and 500 Jewish clerics have signed similar petitions (thus far). Probably isn't going to have any impact, but still a nice gesture.:)

And a refreshing change from angry bearded men jumping up and down on burning flags demanding sharia law to be the law of the land.

the culture of deference

FFS its the same as saying I don't believe in fairies anymore, but I still believe in Santa Claus.

If you believe evolution you believe Man predates all of these imaginary gods. How can there be any exceptions?

Turtwig

the culture of deference wrote: »

FFS its the same as saying I don't believe in fairies anymore, but I still believe in Santa Claus.

If you believe evolution you believe Man predates all of these imaginary gods. How can there be any exceptions?

It's quite simple really. The best design of a contraption would be one that requires no further input from the designer and can run perpetually almost as if the designer of the contraption never existed in the first place. Evolution is the contraption; God is the designer. He can tinker with it whenever He pleases, but it can get on just fine without Him. Evolution doesn't disprove God : it's just not possible.

the culture of deference

Malty_T wrote: »

It's quite simple really. The best design of a contraption would be one that requires no further input from the designer and can run perpetually almost as if the designer of the contraption never existed in the first place. Evolution is the contraption; God is the designer. He can tinker with it whenever He pleases, but it can get on just fine without Him. Evolution doesn't disprove God : it's just not possible.

That must wreck the religious heads.

I have no problem with a god (random event/thing/nothing) getting credit for creating all this, I am only using the word god as a name, I will call it bob from now on.

BUT

The bob that exists in the minds of the religious is an imagined petty monster who is a fckin masochist. We made him in our image.


Q. Could bob have started the universe
A. I don't know is the only answer

Q. Is the bob in the bible the same bob who made it all originally
A. Not a fckin chance





Just so that I am absolutely clear on this

Genghiz Cohen

the culture of deference wrote: »

I am only using the word god as a name, I will call it bob from now on.

Really makes the script from God the Devil and Bob read much better...(awful show)

the culture of deference

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Really makes the script from God the Devil and Bob read much better...(awful show)

Never seen it.

Maybe I should request that a+a should hold a poll so that any mention of god automatically changes it to bob.

condra

I didn't come from no FISH.

Zombrex

dead one wrote: »

Here you say that I am a slave to shaytan deceptions.....Shaytan in Arabic means the far thing.....Shaytan main role is to deceive mankind...... and Materialism is good trick played by shaytan to deceive mankind......... shaytan biggest weapon is the desires...... He makes things logical in this material world to deceive mankind........ You believe in all the tricks of shytan....... You don't believe in the guild lines of God....

Ask yourself what you desire due to your selfish humanity. You desire for evolution to be false, your desire clouds your judgement and reason given to you by God, you cannot see that it is this desire in you that is manipulated by the deceiver.

I feel truly sorry for you dead one

Hopefully these Imam's will pray for God to open your eyes and hold back your wickedness and selfish desires so you can see the beauty of his truth.

dead one

Wicknight wrote: »

Ask yourself what you desire due to your selfish humanity. You desire for evolution to be false, your desire clouds your judgement and reason given to you by God, you cannot see that it is this desire in you that is manipulated by the deceiver.

I have no illegal desires.... My desires are under my control...Dude!!!.....God created all the humans with 'A Fitrah' (a natural state/desire).....So what makes the perfect control for the Fitrah(a natural state/desire) ?It must be a method that gives us meaningful explanation of how to control all these natural human desires.......Islam is the perfect control for the Fitrah. It gives a method that makes man above animals. Right!!!!......i have perfect control over my desires to make evolution false.......... Now can you please tell what controls your desires?.....

Wicknight wrote: »

I feel truly sorry for you dead one

I have perfect control over my desires..... You are in control of your desires....You are slave of your desires...... Your desires are rulling upon your heart my friend.... I feel truly sorry for you Wicknight:(

Wicknight wrote: »

Hopefully these Imam's will pray for God to open your eyes and hold back your wickedness and selfish desires so you can see the beauty of his truth.

These imams worship material God..... and material matter is made up of 99.99 % of nothingness.... Feel pity on these Imams...... They are selling immortal life to purchase mortal gains....... Poor business..... Wick night, I am sure you are not as fool as these clerics are!!!!! Think about yourself in this mortal life of 60 or 70 years.....

robindch

dead one wrote: »

Shaytan main role is to deceive mankind.

It's an interesting difference between christianity and islam.

In islam, Shaytan (aka Satan) is simply dishonest, responsible for feeding people lies and misinformation. In christianity, Satan was promoted to chief doer-of-bad-deeds and a being who actively causes people to do bad things.

dead one

robindch wrote: »

It's an interesting difference between christianity and islam.

In islam, Shaytan (aka Satan) is simply dishonest, responsible for feeding people lies and misinformation. In christianity, Satan was promoted to chief doer-of-bad-deeds and a being who actively causes people to do bad things.

Christianity and Judaism are false interpretations / distorted teaching of Islam........ Muhammad never founded Islam... He was just human prophet like many prophets (Jesus, Moses,Abraham and Adam etc).... That is misconception... Every Prophet warned his people about Satan--
Shytan--Devil.... Moses and Jesus also warned people about Satan... What were their true teaching about Satan?.... There aren't Interpretations of Paul........ Their true message was Islam.... They warned people according to what God revealed to Muhammad....... Whenever you see difference between Satan of Islam vs Satan of Christianity vs Satan of Judaism.... The difference is because of false interpretations.....

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

dead one wrote: »

Christianity and Judaism are false interpretations / distorted teaching of Islam........

Funny how they pre-dated it by centuries so.

Galvasean

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Funny how they pre-dated it by centuries so.

Damn time travelling Judaeo-Christians!!! :mad:

dead one

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Funny how they pre-dated it by centuries so.

No, that's funny!!!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71772254&postcount=13

dead one

Galvasean wrote: »

Damn time travelling Judaeo-Christians!!! :mad:

From history!!!..... That's what you have learned..... remember.....history is full of interpretations and liars....

Genghiz Cohen

dead one wrote: »

From history!!!..... That's what you have learned..... remember.....history is full of interpretations and liars....

But obviously not the ones you believe.
Why are they right exactly?

Sarky

Oh, they're obviously not REAL Muslims.

Genghiz Cohen

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, they're obviously not REAL Muslims.

Yeah!
Only the ones who agree with me are REAL Muslims!

Zombrex

dead one wrote: »

I have perfect control over my desires..... You are in control of your desires....You are slave of your desires...... Your desires are rulling upon your heart my friend.... I feel truly sorry for you Wicknight:(

You betray your unhealthy desires every time you post dead one. Look at how you reacted in this thread, how the truth of God's reality makes you sick and lash out, how you shield yourself from his light and retreat into the darkness, wrapping yourself in the blanket of deceit and lies.

Your soul rots while you proclaim with broken words and half shaped sentences how "happy" you are. You can barely write these words yourself, your own God given body fighting the lies.

MrPudding

Wicknight wrote: »

You betray your unhealthy desires every time you post dead one. Look at how you reacted in this thread, how the truth of God's reality makes you sick and lash out, how you shield yourself from his light and retreat into the darkness, wrapping yourself in the blanket of deceit and lies.

Your soul rots while you proclaim with broken words and half shaped sentences how "happy" you are. You can barely write these words yourself, your own God given body fighting the lies.

Meh, not enough full stops to be taken seriously.

MrP

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

dead one wrote: »

No, that's funny!!!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71772254&postcount=13

That post has little, if anything, to do with what I said.

benagain

condra wrote: »

I didn't come from no FISH.

was u on the apprentice innit ?????

condra

Yeah that's Tre the Muslim, who notoriously denounced evolution on a show where people are supposed to have some intelligence.

Tre, like Dead One, believes he didn't come from no fish.

dead one

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

But obviously not the ones you believe.
Why are they right exactly?

You want to listen answer for this........ Here is answer....
Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.......Every Prophet was follower of Islam........ Every Prophet had submitted his will to God's will and that's what he exactly preached to his people....... So Moses was a perfect Muslim...... His followers who followed Moses till arrival of Jesus,were perfect Muslims...... Simlarly Jesus to Mohammad...... Jesus was a perfect Muslim......Jesus never used "christian'' for himself in the whole Bible....... Moses never used "Jew" or "Judaism" for himself in whole Talmud or OT..... Right .... If you read bible..... You will find..

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
http://bible.cc/matthew/5-17.htm

What are those Laws.... Interpretations won't give answer for this..... They are unique laws sent down by God to his Prophets...... .....God chooses his own messengers.... He uses his own Standards for this... Jesus was one of messenger only for Jews.....

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah*** and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic.
http://quran.com/61/6

Jesus only for jews........

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-6&version=NIV

Gentiles means Non Jews

NO NEW RELIGION
confirming what came before me of the Torah*** Compare this phrase
with with these verses of Mathew and you won't fail to note there is no wordiness in Quran diction.... Right!!!!

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-19&version=NIV

old_aussie

The link is to blue.butler.edu

Just who is this?

Is this some sort of government run organisation?

How do I know that these imam's and other clergy have signed a petition if a copy and verification of the petition is not available.

Sounds a bit fishy to me.

dead one

Wicknight wrote: »

You betray your unhealthy desires

It is the nature of the wise to resist desires..... Only the fool will be slave to them...... So you have healthy desires..... What makes your desires healthy......It because, they are controlling you........ They are ruling upon you, my friend..... Break those chains of slavery....It is your life.... why someone else rules upon you..........You can do whatever you wish to make your desires healthy...... It doesn't mean you are smart......... It means your desires are smarter than you.... Feel pity on you and your mortal desires.....:(

Wicknight wrote: »

Your soul rots while you proclaim with broken words and half shaped sentences how "happy" you are. You can barely write these words yourself, your own God given body fighting the lies.

Alright!!!! translate these below sentences into English and also then give answer of "translation" in these languages.....

traduire en français ci-dessus cite.....

перевод на русский язык выше цитаты.......

Γερμανική μετάφραση του παραπάνω απόσπασμα....

After the translation i will give answer to your above quoted passage...

Gordon

You want him to use Google translate for what reason?

The Greek one means 'German translation of the above passage', did you mean to write 'Greek'?

dead one

Gordon wrote: »

The Greek one means 'German translation of the above passage', did you mean to write 'Greek'?

....
No..... I want German translation of above passage.... But i used Greek to convey my message....:)

Gordon wrote: »

You want him to use Google translate for what reason?

Now, That is whole reason..... I am sure he doesn't think before writing ..... After translating the above quote into three different languages........ He will find the reason why my words are "Broken" and why they are half shaped sentences....

Your soul rots while you proclaim with broken words and half shaped sentences how "happy" you are

Gordon

Oh right, so you use google translate for your English, in that case just tell him that! It's almost like you're intentionally giving him the runaround because you're angry at him

dead one

Gordon wrote: »

Oh right, so you use google translate for your English, in that case just tell him that! It's almost like you're intentionally giving him the runaround because you're angry at him

No, I don't use Google translate for my English.......I never used it...
I never angry with anyone because of my desires...... I have perfect control over my desires....... Why Should i angry with him or anyone else?...... The point is simple, English isn't my first Language......... So that's the whole reason.......
Now see how he falsely interpreted my reason to make his point ....

Originally Posted by Wicknight
Your soul rots while you proclaim with broken words and half shaped sentences how "happy" you are. You can barely write these words yourself, your own God given body fighting the lies.

Same is case of History.......... History isn't free of bias..... People make their points what they prefer..... Right;)

Gordon

dead one wrote: »

No, I don't use Google translate for my English.......I never used it...
I never angry with anyone because of my desires...... I have perfect control over my desires....... Why Should i angry with him or anyone else?...... The point is simple, English isn't my first Language......... So that's the whole reason.......
Now see how he falsely interpreted my reason to make his point ....

Ah, I gotcha, cheers

Wibbs

dead one wrote: »

Same is case of History.......... History isn't free of bias..... People make their points what they prefer..... Right;)

Islamic "history" is very biased. The dictionary defintion of bias indeed. Just like all faiths, though it should get the gold star for effort. For the first 200 years of the religion there are very very few external sources that agrees with any internal Islamic source.

I'd bet a few quid that the folks in this forum would be rightfully dubious about the historicity of Jesus and the accounts surrounding him, but at the same time would be pretty sure Mohammad was a historical figure like Caesar or Charlemagne. They'd be wrong or at least more wrong than they may have thought. The first written accounts of him are at the very least 150 years after he was supposed to have died. Any real detail comes 2 centuries later. It could well be argued that "Mohammad" never existed or is a hodgepodge of different "prophets" or a rejig of a military leader that had the religious and cultural aspect tacked on later. What evidence still around seems to agree most with the latter.

The islamic faith itself looks like any number of christian "heresies" doing the rounds of Eurasia at the time(and before) with some added local colour. Look up early christian heresies and a load of them look like islamic thought. The anti trinity ones in particular. As it grew it cobbled the new faith together in the local (arab)image just the way (roman)christianity did with the jewish faith before it.

There's an element of Greek influence too. EG in Islam they write Jesus' name as Isa, which is in the Greek manner, not the original Jewish manner(Yeshua) which you would expect. There's a lot of greek thought in the so called "science" of the Quran too. The medical stuff is low level Galen rip offs and the astronomy also Greek. So one could argue, heretical non trinity christian + Greek influence + Arab/Jewish culture + local tribal land grabs = Islam.

Islam itself evolved. A notion that can bring out murderous reactions among some in the faith. Naturally as the faith is built on the hard foundation that it came along fully formed. Any deviation brings the whole house of cards coming down. An example of such evolution is in the taboo of showing the human form in art. The earliest Islamic coins are happy to have faces on them, then some form of iconoclasm kicks off and the coins rapidly lose the faces and gain the caligraphy. This seems to have been a Sunni muslim led thing as the Shia Muslims aren't nearly as iconoclastic, so this evolution in the faith likely happened after the sects split.

The importance of Mecca another example. The islamic texts claim it's a very important trading post, yet it's so far off the trades routes of the time. Even the Arabic ones. No record of the town exists before Islam. No Greek, arabic or roman map shows it. Which is all a bit surprising. Then the other obvious one is that the earliest mosques point towards Jerusalem, not Mecca. That came later.

Zombrex

dead one wrote: »

I have perfect control over my desires....... Why Should i angry with him or anyone else?...... The point is simple, English isn't my first Language......... So that's the whole reason.......

You have "perfect" control over your desires? Ha! Only someone deluded by ego would say such a thing. Your put yourself on the same pedestal as the holy and the prophets. Your words betray your motivations and your wicked sin.

robindch

dead one wrote: »

перевод на русский язык выше цитаты..

"Translation into the russian language of the above text."

(though the cases are all wrong).

kiffer

dead one's english is poor because it's his 3rd language.
While generally my reading comprehension is better than my writen ability in languages that I'm weak in I still can't help but wonder if a large part of our difficulty with dead one is that much is lost in translation, and he's missing the finer points of people's arguements...
I don't want to sound like I'm looking down on you for your language skills but would it help if people used shorter sentences or something?
Also if you're going to make such heavy use of ellipses ( ... ) then stick to three dots, my use of them is very heavy and I make an effort now to scan back through a post and replace most of them with more usual punctuation. I'm told it makes one look a bit frantic and even more so when you are sloppy with their lenghts...