Another rules question

Woodgate

Hi,

This happened today and looking for your views and the correct ruling!!

Playing strokeplay today one of my playing partners hit his 3rd shot on a par 5 into some rough, myself and the other lads (playing in 4's today) were helping him look for the ball, we called a 3 ball that were playing very close behind us through, the guy whose ball we were looking for decided to head back to the spot he had played from in case the ball wasn't found in time, but did not declare it lost, on his way back we found the ball (within the 5 mins) and called him back, at this point the lads playing through shouted that he couldn't do that as once he had turned and started to walk back that the ball was declared lost, anyway the guy played the penalty ball from way back but I think that the other lads were wrong and he could have played his original ball.

Surely the penalty ball is not in play until he takes the drop back at the spot he originally hit from. Obviously if he declared the original lost it would be different.

Looking for your thoughts (hope I have been clear with the explaination).

Woody.

nocal

The penalty ball is not in play until it is dropped. As soon as it is dropped it is the ball in play and hence the one he must play. So as he had not dropped the ball he could have gone back to his original and played it. This very scenario was covered at a recent rules night I was at.

As you said he had not declared his original ball lost and walking back is not declaring it lost - especially if he said he would head back in case he had to play from back there.

PhilipMarlowe

Woodgate wrote: »

Hi,

This happened today and looking for your views and the correct ruling!!

Playing strokeplay today one of my playing partners hit his 3rd shot on a par 5 into some rough, myself and the other lads (playing in 4's today) were helping him look for the ball, we called a 3 ball that were playing very close behind us through, the guy whose ball we were looking for decided to head back to the spot he had played from in case the ball wasn't found in time, but did not declare it lost, on his way back we found the ball (within the 5 mins) and called him back, at this point the lads playing through shouted that he couldn't do that as once he had turned and started to walk back that the ball was declared lost, anyway the guy played the penalty ball from way back but I think that the other lads were wrong and he could have played his original ball.

Surely the penalty ball is not in play until he takes the drop back at the spot he originally hit from. Obviously if he declared the original lost it would be different.

Looking for your thoughts (hope I have been clear with the explaination).

Woody.

"declare lost" = meaningless.
It is one of the most often-used pile of donkey crap statements, especially on here.

The ball becomes lost if you [highlight]can't[/highlight] find it, are [highlight]too slow[/highlight] about finding it or you do [highlight]other stuff[/highlight] that makes it not the ball in play any more. "Other stuff" doesn't include saying the phrase 'I declare that ball lost' which has no material effect.

You partner had every right to go back, though he should have stayed and looked for the full 5 minutes really (assuming he wanted it found). He couldn't go back and hit a provisional - assuming he went back to the original spot and dropped another ball, that dropped ball is now in play. It doesn't matter if ye had found his ball 4 seconds later (and within the 5 minutes limit) - the dropped ball is now the ball in play.

In your case, the original was found with the time limit, the player hadn't done anything to make the original "lost" (like put another ball into play; remember, saying the phrase [highlight]means nothing[/highlight]). He was entitled to play the original and needlessly suffered a stroke and distance penalty in this case.

A few other scenarios can arise here too.
Had his original been hit from the tee, he could go back and place a ball on a tee and it would only become the ball in play once he made a stroke at it (though since he was after playing from the fairway, he would have been dropping a new ball and once dropped, that ball would be in play immediately).

Also bear in mind (as part of the "other stuff" you can do to make a ball lost) that when you play a provisional ball and you take a stroke at that provisional ball from a point that is closer to the hole than your original is likely to be, then that provo becomes the ball in play and the original is 'lost' (even if someone 'finds' it subsequently). e.g. slice one into the trees, play a provo down the middle, look for the original for 2 mins, give up, walk forward, play the provo, someone 'finds' the original... doesn't matter, you already caused it to be "lost" by hitting the provo from nearer the hole...

Woodgate

Thanks guys,

I am fully aware of the provisional ball scenario, i.e. you cant go back to play a provisional, as I asked a similar question on that before. But it's good to hear that my thoughts were right, just bad luck for the guy in question.
I am a low handicap and was caught on the hop a bit when the guys shouted but in hindsight they were 5, 11 & ?? handicap and were adamant they were right. Shows there is still a lot of misinterpritation of the rules at all levels.
Thanks again for the replies.

AldilaMan

Woodgate wrote: »

Thanks guys,

I am fully aware of the provisional ball scenario, i.e. you cant go back to play a provisional, as I asked a similar question on that before. But it's good to hear that my thoughts were right, just bad luck for the guy in question.
I am a low handicap and was caught on the hop a bit when the guys shouted but in hindsight they were 5, 11 & ?? handicap and were adamant they were right. Shows there is still a lot of misinterpritation of the rules at all levels.
Thanks again for the replies.

A person's handicap is irrelevant in knowing the rules. After all are professional golfers the worst culprits in needing to call a referee for the most basic of rulings.

Mr. Larson

<hijack>

Can any experts comment on this scenario? Probably a common enough rule breakage imho...

Strokeplay competition, ball played off the tee, ball line in slight potential danger of red hazard but not thought to be in danger so no provisional played. Hazard is not in view off the tee. Player 2 plays similar shot on a safer line, both thought to be similar distance with player 2's ball thought to be 'inside' the line of Player 1s' tee shot and the red hazard, i.e. safer.

Arrive to play 2nd shots, player 2's ball is 4 yards left of hazard, no sign of player 1's ball inside or outside the hazard (hazard is overgrown with weeds so ball could conceivably be in there).

Player 2 tells player 1 that his ball 'must' be in the hazard so instead of going back to tee and re-loading, player takes a penalty and drops as if ball was in hazard and goes on to hole out and continue the round.

Given that going back to the tee should have been the correct course of action and taking the drop was illegal as there was no certainty that the ball was in the hazard and also given that both player 1 & 2 claimed illegally that the ball was in the hazard, what are the consequences?

1. Player 1 DQ'd
2. Player 1 & Player 2 DQ'd

</hijack>

GreeBo

Jabberwocky wrote: »

<hijack>

Can any experts comment on this scenario? Probably a common enough rule breakage imho...

Strokeplay competition, ball played off the tee, ball line in slight potential danger of red hazard but not thought to be in danger so no provisional played. Hazard is not in view off the tee. Player 2 plays similar shot on a safer line, both thought to be similar distance with player 2's ball thought to be 'inside' the line of Player 1s' tee shot and the red hazard, i.e. safer.

Arrive to play 2nd shots, player 2's ball is 4 yards left of hazard, no sign of player 1's ball inside or outside the hazard (hazard is overgrown with weeds so ball could conceivably be in there).

Player 2 tells player 1 that his ball 'must' be in the hazard so instead of going back to tee and re-loading, player takes a penalty and drops as if ball was in hazard and goes on to hole out and continue the round.

Given that going back to the tee should have been the correct course of action and taking the drop was illegal as there was no certainty that the ball was in the hazard and also given that both player 1 & 2 claimed illegally that the ball was in the hazard, what are the consequences?

1. Player 1 DQ'd
2. Player 1 & Player 2 DQ'd

</hijack>

Just P1, unless P2 knew that this was against the rules.

Whyner

His partner agreed that the ball went into the hazard, virtually certain is sufficient, no?

-ignore me...left of the hazard was the young chap

G1032

AldilaMan wrote: »

A person's handicap is irrelevant in knowing the rules. After all are professional golfers the worst culprits in needing to call a referee for the most basic of rulings.

They know the rules. They're just calling the ref to make absolutely certain that they won't end up costing themselves €500,000 by taking an incorrect drop or whatever.

AldilaMan

Whyner wrote: »

His partner agreed that the ball went into the hazard, virtually certain is sufficient, no?

-ignore me...left of the hazard was the young chap

You can only be virtually certain if the hazard is surrounded by short grass (mowen). If the ball could be lost in rough grass then you cannot be certain (virtually or otherwise).

Corkblowin

Jabberwocky wrote: »

<hijack>

Strokeplay competition, ball played off the tee, ball line in slight potential danger of red hazard but not thought to be in danger so no provisional played. Hazard is not in view off the tee. Player 2 plays similar shot on a safer line, both thought to be similar distance with player 2's ball thought to be 'inside' the line of Player 1s' tee shot and the red hazard, i.e. safer.

I believe you can't play a provisional for a water hazard in any event - you have to confirm the ball is in the hazard before hitting another ball, otherwise the second one is the one in play, even if the original tee shot is found to be safe.

Mr. Larson

Corkblowin wrote: »

I believe you can't play a provisional for a water hazard in any event - you have to confirm the ball is in the hazard before hitting another ball, otherwise the second one is the one in play, even if the original tee shot is found to be safe.

Really? That's interesting... what if you can't see the hazard from the tee but suspect it may have gone in? Sounds like you need to take a bit of a gamble then?

So...

1. Tee off
2. Suspect ball may have trickled in
3. Tee up a provo in case you don't find it in the hazard
4. Find the ball in the hazard

Is that tough then? Seems harsh! Given the potential alternative is...

1. Tee off
2. Suspect ball may have trickled in
3. Elect not to play a provisional so as not to take the original out of play immediately
4. Fail to find the ball in the hazard or anywhere else

In which case you've to trudge back to the tee? Or do I have it arseways?

AldilaMan

Jabberwocky wrote: »

Really? That's interesting... what if you can't see the hazard from the tee but suspect it may have gone in? Sounds like you need to take a bit of a gamble then?


So...

1. Tee off
2. Suspect ball may have trickled in
3. Tee up a provo in case you don't find it in the hazard
4. Find the ball in the hazard

Is that tough then? Seems harsh! Given the potential alternative is...

1. Tee off
2. Suspect ball may have trickled in
3. Elect not to play a provisional so as not to take the original out of play immediately
4. Fail to find the ball in the hazard or anywhere else

In which case you've to trudge back to the tee? Or do I have it arseways?

My understanding is that you can play a provisional on the basis that it may be lost near a hazard. Once the 1st ball is found either in or outside the hazard the provisional ball is out of play. If the ball is not found, it can't be assumed that it's in the hazard unless seen entering it by you or your playing partners.

GreeBo

AldilaMan wrote: »

My understanding is that you can play a provisional on the basis that it may be lost near a hazard. Once the 1st ball is found either in or outside the hazard the provisional ball is out of play. If the ball is not found, it can't be assumed that it's in the hazard unless seen entering it by you or your playing partners.

Exactly. And if it was seen entering the hazard then you are not playing a provisional you are playing 3 off the tee (if you elect to hit another)