FETAC external examiner

namoosh

Hope someone can help me with this. I work in a vec school. Does anyone know if teachers have to accept the fetac external examiners adjustments to grades or can we reject them and go with our own marks? I remember hearing or reading somewhere that this is the case this year. I notice that the exam secretary has the examiners signed sheets this year as opposed to them being whisked off to fetac.

My reason for asking is that I had one group assessed by a particular assessor, I had two or three students who were just over the distinction and merit threshold and the merchant banker marked them down just enough to move them down a grade without any rational reason, his excuse was that "They didn't look like distinctions, merits, but couldn't give a hard reason." I am going to recommend that the students appeal the result but if there is an option to over rule him it would make the process easier. The students are an adult group, they worked very hard and I don't want to see them upset or short changed. He did say that I didn't have to accept his alteration.

I queried this with the exam secretary, not the most stable or well informed individual, she claimed to know nothing about this, but also stated that she was going to enter in the final results, a departure from previous years.

Can anyone help clarify this before Monday? I need hard evidence to tackle the exam secretary on this. Thanks for looking any help appreciated.

looksee

Join the club. I haven't heard anything about being able to do anything about it. I wonder if it is a good idea to discuss Fetac marking on an open forum though?

namoosh

looksee wrote: »

Join the club. I haven't heard anything about being able to do anything about it. I wonder if it is a good idea to discuss Fetac marking on an open forum though?

Why not? Its supposed to be an open and transparent system, the marking schemes are available to the public on the FETAC website, cross moderation is open and transparent, I have no problem with marks being downgraded because I made a mistake, graded students work too leniently, added them up incorrectly or not teaching to the required standard, I wont make the same mistake again and I'll let the students know what went wrong, that is the function of the external examiner.

Most externs in my experience, if a student is on the borderline, will scour the work to try to find the marks to get them across the line. This guy did the opposite. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr! All he could say when queried was it didn't look like a Distinction/Merit.

This is not good enough!:mad:

spurious

I think FETAC are probably the people to discuss this with.

If they are anything like the SEC, there will be a post-marking meeting of assessors/monitors where this can be brought up.

rainbowtrout

You can't just go on with your own grades. If you could what would be the point in the external examiner? Your students can appeal the grades if they are not happy.

The point of the external examiner is to check that standards are being adhered to. This does involve grades being moved up or down. If the system only allowed grades to be moved up then everyone would be trying to get their merits to 79 so the extern would bring them up to 80.

I'm sure they see plenty of grades in centres where they are just on the minimum mark for distinction, merit or pass and the quality of the work presented does not justify the grade being awarded.

I've seen grades of mine in the past move up and move down where they were borderline on a grade.

namoosh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can't just go on with your own grades. If you could what would be the point in the external examiner? Your students can appeal the grades if they are not happy.

The point of the external examiner is to check that standards are being adhered to. This does involve grades being moved up or down. If the system only allowed grades to be moved up then everyone would be trying to get their merits to 79 so the extern would bring them up to 80.

I'm sure they see plenty of grades in centres where they are just on the minimum mark for distinction, merit or pass and the quality of the work presented does not justify the grade being awarded.

I've seen grades of mine in the past move up and move down where they were borderline on a grade.

I dont have a problem with that as long as a valid explaination is given, saying it doesnt look like a Distinction just isnt good enough! Why were all the borderline students marked down? I teach the same modules in another centre with a different extern who commended me on the standard of my work and marked some students up and gave me the reason!

Anyway all I need to know is do we have to accept the externs mark this year? If we do I'll get the students to appeal, if not I'll challenge the marks now.

LilMsss

namoosh wrote: »

Does anyone know if teachers have to accept the fetac external examiners adjustments to grades or can we reject them and go with our own marks?

namoosh wrote: »

I am going to recommend that the students appeal the result but if there is an option to over rule him it would make the process easier. The students are an adult group, they worked very hard and I don't want to see them upset or short changed.

namoosh wrote: »

I have no problem with marks being downgraded because I made a mistake, graded students work too leniently, added them up incorrectly or not teaching to the required standard

namoosh wrote: »

I teach the same modules in another centre with a different extern who commended me on the standard of my work and marked some students up and gave me the reason!

Namoosh, it appears that you are taking this as a personal insult and as being about the 'standard of your work'.

This is about the student's work being held to a certain standard. I realise that your students probably worked extremely hard, and like you, I have worked with groups of adults on VTOS courses, who went above and beyond in completing the module. But insisting that the students in question may have been short-changed or let down in any way is ridiculous.

I would understand completely if they were a clear Distinction, as in 90 % +, and then being marked down to a Merit, but the fact is, they were borderline - borderline goes up, as well as down. If someone is between 77-83, then they are borderline, and as such, are more likely to be scrutinised by the Extern.

I understand the disappointment you have on behalf or your students, but they are adults, and I would always have stipulated to my students that the overall grades I give them for my module are provisional until approved by the Extern. They are fully aware of, and understand this.

This is not about the students being short-changed, but the integrity of the FETAC system. Yes, there are some problems with it, and invariably there will always be people involved who are unhappy with a particular aspect of the system.

Any Externs I have dealt with, over various centres have had different approaches to assessing work, but they have all been fair. If there was an issue with a borderline student, the Extern would usually speak to me directly and I would explain why I felt a student should be kept at a certain grade, as opposed to being moved up or down. If an amendment was to be made to a student's overall grade, it would be in agreement with me, the tutor and the Extern.

Have you had access to the External Examiner's Report for your module yet? If not, try to get some more feedback from the Extern in question, it may be a matter of miscommunication, and perhaps you would agree with the result if you knew the specifics of why it did not constitute a Distinction.

looksee

I did not want to get into this discussion, but I feel I have to give namoosh some support here. I have been in the same situation. I am intelligent and removed enough to know the difference between a different, informed opinion, and an opinion that is based on a basic issue with a few subjects. I do not want to go into detail, but there can be a problem. I teach several subjects and have had no problems (even though a mark might be adjusted here or there) with most subjects, but one creates issues every time, and in the same cases a student might have a standard across the board, but with a different mark in the one subject.

And no, it is not always the case that you can discuss the matter with the extern, some are very good to talk, others mark and run.

namoosh

LilMsss wrote: »

Namoosh, it appears that you are taking this as a personal insult and as being about the 'standard of your work'.

This is about the student's work being held to a certain standard. I realise that your students probably worked extremely hard, and like you, I have worked with groups of adults on VTOS courses, who went above and beyond in completing the module. But insisting that the students in question may have been short-changed or let down in any way is ridiculous.

I would understand completely if they were a clear Distinction, as in 90 % +, and then being marked down to a Merit, but the fact is, they were borderline - borderline goes up, as well as down. If someone is between 77-83, then they are borderline, and as such, are more likely to be scrutinised by the Extern.

I understand the disappointment you have on behalf or your students, but they are adults, and I would always have stipulated to my students that the overall grades I give them for my module are provisional until approved by the Extern. They are fully aware of, and understand this.

This is not about the students being short-changed, but the integrity of the FETAC system. Yes, there are some problems with it, and invariably there will always be people involved who are unhappy with a particular aspect of the system.

Any Externs I have dealt with, over various centres have had different approaches to assessing work, but they have all been fair. If there was an issue with a borderline student, the Extern would usually speak to me directly and I would explain why I felt a student should be kept at a certain grade, as opposed to being moved up or down. If an amendment was to be made to a student's overall grade, it would be in agreement with me, the tutor and the Extern.

Have you had access to the External Examiner's Report for your module yet? If not, try to get some more feedback from the Extern in question, it may be a matter of miscommunication, and perhaps you would agree with the result if you knew the specifics of why it did not constitute a Distinction.

You are correct, it is the standard of the students work that is being assessed. I taught two groups to the SAME standard in two different centres. The assessor in centre A felt that I had marked one assignment a bit too hard and marked up the students, he met with me and explained his reasons.

The assessor in centre B only marked down the borderline students, his reason being that the work wasn't presented in colour coded boxes. When I pointed out to him that that was not a requirement in the module descriptor he then said he marked them down because they "didn't look like a merit/distinction".

Where is the FETAC standard in this or the integrity of the FETAC system.

A number of teachers have had issues in the same subject area with the same extern over the past three years. His pattern was to move students marks within the bands, criticise only the adult students work to the FETAC exam secretary but put nothing in writing. The teachers involved called into him to check if there were any issues, left their mobile numbers for consultation, they were told everything was fine, received no phone calls. They would come in the next day to find he had criticised students work and the teachers presentation to the exam sec and put nothing in writing. He only has difficulty with adult groups.

We were left in a position of being told the students work was not up to standard, but not why. A number of the other teachers teach the same modules in other centres and there has not been an issue with the students work.

I managed to catch him this year and still received no explaination, no I'm not taking this personally, yes I'm extremely annoyed that students are being short changed by nthis examiner. If they had done the course with the same teachers in a different centre 10 minutes drive away their work would have been externed by a different examiner and the results would have stood! Where is the integrity and transparency of the FETAC system?

I have the same experience as looksee most will engage in discussion, this guy wants to cut and run,

Anyway I didn't want this thread to turn into a discussion on FETAC all I want to know is has the system changed this year, the results entry process has, and one comment the extern made during the discussion was that I didnt have to accept his results

Bally8

What I would do is get the student to appeal their results. Appeals do not go through FETAC if you are using the new Internal Verification- External Authenticator system. In our centre the appeals process involves a tutor from another centre grading the work again without any knowledge of your marks awarded or what the external authenticator says. If their marks match yours, that mark is given. If it matches the extern, that mark is given.

I would also recommend you contact FETAC to point out your concerns regarding the random reasons your extern found for bringing down the marks. They really should be giving concrete reasons for their decisions.

Elizabeth1

Hi
I am new to this and just wondered if you knew the difference between Awarded and component on the cert. I have awarded on the cert but was unsuccessful in 3 subjects

Crazyteacher

Hi,

If you are awarded a FETAC component certificate that means that you do not have enough credits(components) for the full award. EG: FETAC 5 Childcare you need 8 components to make up a full award. They issue you a record of achievement in the case of not having passed all components. Hope that helps After each module on your results you can either see distinction, merit, or pass to get the full module.

Elizabeth1

Thank you so much for your reply. Here is my situation. I have received an awarded certificate for veterinary nursing but have 3 unsuccessful subjects out of 12 subjects. I want to know if i can register with the veterinary council of ireland as a RVN on this certificate. Hope you can help

rainbowtrout

Elizabeth1 wrote: »

Thank you so much for your reply. Here is my situation. I have received an awarded certificate for veterinary nursing but have 3 unsuccessful subjects out of 12 subjects. I want to know if i can register with the veterinary council of ireland as a RVN on this certificate. Hope you can help

Well it depends on what subjects you passed. You need 8 for a full certificate, but to be given a full award you have to have passed certain compulsory modules. Work Experience and Communications are compulsory in every Level 5 Certificate and then it depends on the specific cert after that.

http://www.fetac.ie/fetac/awardsDirectory.do?method=getMajorAwardDetails&majorAwardId=5392&fromPage=awardsByField

This is the only Veterinary award I could find, a Certificate in Animal Care. It lists two compulsory modules as well as W. Exp and Comms. You need to have passed Animal Welfare and Animal Anatomy and Physiology.

Elizabeth1

Thank you for going to the trouble to look this up for me. What you have looked up is refers to level 5 and going into level 6. I have done level 6 and have an award . i am trying to see if I can register with the veterinary council of Ireland when i only passed 9 out of 12. Well my cert says unsuccessful in 3 subjects. thanks

Crazyteacher

Hi Elizabeth1,

You would need to have your full award at fetac 6 to register. Check with the people your register with but I'd say you'd have to wait until you repeated those modules you didnt get.

Elizabeth1

ok. will do. Many thanks for your help.