crankshaft failure on VW TDI's

johnos1984

I have recently heard of a number of failures of the camshaft on VW TDI engines.

Two family members have had it and from talking to others it appears to be common enough. Nobody has been able to give an explanation as to why it happens. My guess is the wrong grade of oil was used during servicing.

Is this common or expensive and why might it occur?

********EDIT: It is CAMSHAFT FAILURE not crankshaft********* my bad...

homer90

I have seen this on other forums alright.. but, from what I could see it was mainly the 2.5 TDi lump giving those issues...

johnos1984

homer90 wrote: »

I have seen this on other forums alright.. but, from what I could see it was mainly the 2.5 TDi lump giving those issues...

So far I have linked it to:

2X Jetta 1.9TDI's
3X Golf 1.9TDI's
2X Passat 1.9TDI's
1X Skoda Superb 1.9TDI

Ages range from 2003-2006 all with mileage around 120k - 140k miles

I'm just interested as I never heard of it until I started to ask after it started affecting cars I know

voxpop

heard of some camshaft problems - mostly on the pd150s - never heard of crankshaft issues - are we talking PD engines or older/newer ? What the issue ?

johnos1984

voxpop wrote: »

heard of some camshaft problems - mostly on the pd150s - never heard of crankshaft issues - are we talking PD engines or older/newer ? What the issue ?

Well the latest is my g/f's mother who is running a Jetta 105bhp TDI

The Superb is her sons and it has a 130bhp TDI

johnos1984

Apologies it is CAMSHAFT FAILURE not crankshaft

voxpop

johnos1984 wrote: »

Apologies it is CAMSHAFT FAILURE not crankshaft

Makes more sense now - dont think I ever heard of a crankshaft failing. There are a few threads on camshaft wear - rather than failure - people just guessing really - incorrect oil is suggest as a possible culprit

johnos1984

voxpop wrote: »

Makes more sense now - dont think I ever heard of a crankshaft failing. There are a few threads on camshaft ware - rather than failure - people just guessing really - incorrect oil is suggest as a possible culprit

I've read a few threads where people claim they have only ever used the correct grades. I know the two family cars were serviced correctly but failure still happened.

voxpop

What sort of issues did they have ? Was it worn lobes ?

johnos1984

voxpop wrote: »

What sort of issues did they have ? Was it worn lobes ?

Lobes and camshaft have had to be replaced in both.

Plug

Ok lads this is what happens, its rare but it does happen non the least.
First symptoms are misfire sound. Take out the glow plugs and examine them all, they should be roughly the same colour, but the odd one out is where the problem could lie. The tappets on the top of the valves can ware down and the valve busts through it. The cam lobe then starts to ware down because of the top of the valve rubbing on it.
It won't cause engine failure and is easily fixed. You need to have a good light and get a good look in around there.
Hope this helps.

elaverty

If the services wernt done by a main dealer (which is a rip off) they are gonna try and blame the wrong oil,as they dont want to get into a warrenty issue IMO..

johnos1984

Plug wrote: »

Ok lads this is what happens, its rare but it does happen non the least.
First symptoms are misfire sound. Take out the glow plugs and examine them all, they should be roughly the same colour, but the odd one out is where the problem could lie. The tappets on the top of the valves can ware down and the valve busts through it. The cam lobe then starts to ware down because of the top of the valve rubbing on it.
It won't cause engine failure and is easily fixed. You need to have a good light and get a good look in around there.
Hope this helps.

So the camshaft itself doesn't need replacing?

Plug

johnos1984 wrote: »

So the camshaft itself doesn't need replacing?

It does yeah, the lobe goes flat. Its no harm to replace all the tappets too.

johnos1984

Plug wrote: »

It does yeah, the lobe goes flat. Its no harm to replace all the tappets too.

No problem. The kit has been ordered already, no idea what cost but it is coming from FAIAUTOS in England as they were the cheapest according to the mechanic.

Is it something that I need to be worried about with my own Passat?

Plug

johnos1984 wrote: »

No problem. The kit has been ordered already, no idea what cost but it is coming from FAIAUTOS in England as they were the cheapest according to the mechanic.

Is it something that I need to be worried about with my own Passat?

It will probably go eventually but it depends on your driving style and how well it was looked after, oils etc. It will take a while though, its usually after 120k miles they will start giving trouble it seems. What year is your Passat? If your is the newer Passat 06 onwards I'd say you would escape, I'd say they would have modified the tappets. Are the eight tappets in the kit?

johnos1984

Plug wrote: »

It will probably go eventually but it depends on your driving style and how well it was looked after, oils etc. It will take a while though, its usually after 120k miles they will start giving trouble it seems. What year is your Passat? If your is the newer Passat 06 onwards I'd say you would escape, I'd say they would have modified the tappets. Are the eight tappets in the kit?

Its a 2006 1.9 TDI 105bhp with full service history and 125k miles up. Mostly motorway miles with short drives during the week

mr_edge_to_you

You can add a 05 Skoda Octavia 105bhp 1.9TDi to that list. Exact same thing happened me last week. Costing me 1200e to get the car back on the road.

210,000 km on the clock. Well serviced and maintained car, timing belt changed twice since Jul'09.

My mechanic said its the third time he has dealt with this problem on VAG cars in the last 12 months.

George Dalton

€1200 is too much to be paying.

Here are a couple of pictures of worn hydraulic tappets from a 1.9TDI:





EDIT: Plus one of the old damaged lifter beside the new improved version:

Chimaera

This has been a big enough problem for PD engines in the US too.

Many theories going around about it, but the one thing that seems to be agreed on is that using a 5W30 oil in these shortens the lifetime a lot. It's a popular topic on www.tdiclub.com

nogoodnamesleft

Have VAG issued a service bulletin regards the issue and what engine codes are effected?

From a quick read is seems to be confined to 105bhp TDI and 150bhp TDI and those running the incorrect non PD spec oil.

bryaner

Thats shockin sh!te for modern engines, the last time I saw that kind of tappet-camshaft wear was on the old 1.6-1.7d Opels way back in the day, you'd hope and think modern machines would be better than the old diesel engines..

Mar4ix

It happening because people overdue service on regular basis, and use wrong oils. I was looking in manual for oil for one car .... manuals says ... 10w/30 or alternate oil 15w/40 ... those are different oils ... i cant understand why manual suggest that.

for some reason in Ireland people uses the cheapest oil 15w/40, even if they says semi synthetic or fully synthetic(very expensive - thats for sport ish cars) ... it means the way it was produced, but itself 15w /40 is a mineral grade oil which use to use on old cars or tractors.
Many people never think, what oil local garages put in to cars... i am not sure 100%, but i think there goes 15w40 oil... re cheapest oil. car will work fine, but after a good while ... year or even more , oil pump will fail, op stated problems will occur .. nobody will link this with wrong grade oil use. ...
I wont argue with anyone about this, i am just standing for my knowledge and experience .... none of cars in my life... whatever mine own, or somebodys who i serviced had oil related problems.
Correct oil must be used.

mr_edge_to_you

Just an update on this issue.

I got my car serviced last week by a mechanic in the area which I now live. He noticed from the service book that the camshaft was replaced at 210000km. He was telling me in the last two months he has replaced 3 camshafts - octavia, passat and A4. Octavia and Passat were taxis with relatively high mileage. A4 had average mileage. Said he has encountered numerous times on VAG 1.9tdi engines 05-08. Interesting.

dgt

Add a 2008 Passat 2.0TDI 140bhp to the list, a close friend of mine was very pissed off that his crank went and had to have the engine rebuilt, which cost him a fortune

George Dalton

The only reason for camshaft failure in these engines is lack of regular oil changes and/or using incorrect oil for the engine. The 1.9TDI engine is a super reliable unit when treated with any kind of respect. Any cars with camshaft failures we have seen have either no service history or else massive gaps between oil changes. EG the last one we did was a Ford Galaxy which had gone 37k miles without an oil change!

Leonard Hofstadter

George Dalton wrote: »

The only reason for camshaft failure in these engines is lack of regular oil changes and/or using incorrect oil for the engine. The 1.9TDI engine is a super reliable unit when treated with any kind of respect. Any cars with camshaft failures we have seen have either no service history or else massive gaps between oil changes. EG the last one we did was a Ford Galaxy which had gone 37k miles without an oil change!

Jesus Christ, some people are iditos. I hope ye charged them a right amount of money to fix it - maybe that will get through to the car's thick owners that servicing at the appropriate intervals is vital:rolleyes:. I hope ye told them in no uncertain terms that the only reason the car needed that was precisely because it hadn't been serviced in so long and would never have gone if the car was serviced on time all the time.

No doubt the attitude of that car's owner is that the problem shouldn't have happened at all and if it was a Toyota or something it would be still driving away fine - some people in this country really are that stupid:rolleyes:.

Pottler

johnos1984 wrote: »

I've read a few threads where people claim they have only ever used the correct grades. I know the two family cars were serviced correctly but failure still happened.

Yup, and it's not just VW, Audi's are affected too. I made a thread a while back about this whereby a friend(who also happens to rebuild engines and is well known and respected) was rebuilding a lot of TT engines as well as A4/6 and VW's. Pretty much all used the correct oil/service interval. His take(and I believe him) was that the oil is varnishing and sludging, blocking the oil pick-up in the sump and due to design issues etc, the cams AND the cranks are suffering oil starvation. Once rebuilt he reccomends semi-synthetic, not fully synthetic. I was laughed out of it, not that I care, but that's his business so he should know, probably half the experts on here have used his engineering shop to get engines done... He makes nice side money buying up fresh TTs and A4s with shat engines, rebuilding them(it's pretty involved, deffo not cheap) and selling them on.:)

Pottler

George Dalton wrote: »

The only reason for camshaft failure in these engines is lack of regular oil changes and/or using incorrect oil for the engine. The 1.9TDI engine is a super reliable unit when treated with any kind of respect. Any cars with camshaft failures we have seen have either no service history or else massive gaps between oil changes. EG the last one we did was a Ford Galaxy which had gone 37k miles without an oil change!

Sorry George, can't agree there.

walus

Mar4ix wrote: »

It happening because people overdue service on regular basis, and use wrong oils. I was looking in manual for oil for one car .... manuals says ... 10w/30 or alternate oil 15w/40 ... those are different oils ... i cant understand why manual suggest that.

for some reason in Ireland people uses the cheapest oil 15w/40, even if they says semi synthetic or fully synthetic(very expensive - thats for sport ish cars) ... it means the way it was produced, but itself 15w /40 is a mineral grade oil which use to use on old cars or tractors.
Many people never think, what oil local garages put in to cars... i am not sure 100%, but i think there goes 15w40 oil... re cheapest oil. car will work fine, but after a good while ... year or even more , oil pump will fail, op stated problems will occur .. nobody will link this with wrong grade oil use. ...
I wont argue with anyone about this, i am just standing for my knowledge and experience .... none of cars in my life... whatever mine own, or somebodys who i serviced had oil related problems.
Correct oil must be used.

Totally agree with it. On top of that take a look at how many variations of say 5w-30 each oil manufacturer has. There are oils for VW spec, BWM and Merc etc. It is not about a right grade in most cases any more. The ACEA rating is just as important and also in case of the most cars makers they have their own oil norms and advise owners to use these oils only.
There is very little selection of good full synthetic oils in Ireland and some of them are known for causing troubles (varnishing, sludge) as are of very poor quality. Therefore some mechanics use semi-synthetics that have good additives and do a better job on a shorter intervals. Other than that I would advise anyone not to do more than 10k miles on a single oil change. There is no way these cheap synthetics will last more in the engine than that. Cheers.

lomb

The problem is good synthetic oils eg Mobil 1 5W with the vw audi norms are dear, I change mine every 5k miles or 12 months and I doubt Il have any issues on that end at least.

BUBBLE WRAP

lomb wrote: »

The problem is good synthetic oils eg Mobil 1 5W with the vw audi norms are dear, I change mine every 5k miles or 12 months and I doubt Il have any issues on that end at least.

The OP closed his account a while ago.

-Corkie-

Pottler wrote: »

Yup, and it's not just VW, Audi's are affected too. I made a thread a while back about this whereby a friend(who also happens to rebuild engines and is well known and respected) was rebuilding a lot of TT engines as well as A4/6 and VW's. Pretty much all used the correct oil/service interval. His take(and I believe him) was that the oil is varnishing and sludging, blocking the oil pick-up in the sump and due to design issues etc, the cams AND the cranks are suffering oil starvation. Once rebuilt he reccomends semi-synthetic, not fully synthetic. I was laughed out of it, not that I care, but that's his business so he should know, probably half the experts on here have used his engineering shop to get engines done... He makes nice side money buying up fresh TTs and A4s with shat engines, rebuilding them(it's pretty involved, deffo not cheap) and selling them on.:)

No offence to you but that story about the varnish is pure tripe.

George Dalton

The sludge/varnish problem with affects the 1.8T also a totally different issue to the camshaft wear that the 1.9TDI suffers from.

Pottler

Pottler wrote: »

.................... was rebuilding a lot of TT engines as well as A4/6 and VW's. Pretty much all used the correct oil/service interval. His take(and I believe him) was that the oil is varnishing and sludging, blocking the oil pick-up in the sump and due to design issues etc, the cams AND the cranks are suffering oil starvation. Once rebuilt he reccomends semi-synthetic, not fully synthetic. I was laughed out of it,..............

I remember that, I thought 'twas mineral oil he used? That's why you were laughed out of it iirc

Popoutman

I've used this crowd in the past: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

A proper oil analysis, and a proper breakdown of where the wearing metals are likely to be coming from, as well as a test on the current state of the lubrication properties of the oil.

It's really important to realise that he PD engines require oil that must meet VW oil standards: 505.01, 506.01, or 507.00.
If it doesn't say it on the bottle, then it's not the right oil for the car. The point pressures at the PD lobes on the camshafts are huge and the oil has to have the correct formulation to lubricate under these conditions. This is one of the reasons why the VAG group have moved on to CR diesels instead. It's not good enough to say "semi-synthetic is good enough" as it isn't enough information to go on.

With the right oil and the right service interval, the PD engines can reach stratospheric mileages, and are rated for >300k miles. If there are camshaft failures and over-the-odds wear on the lobes, then the wrong oil has been used or the service interval was exceeded.

On the VAG diesels, there is a conductivity measurement (iirc) that the ECU uses along with the profile of the engine use to give a very good gauge of the oil standard. This is calibrated against oils that follow the VW oil specs, and non-spec oils will most likely break down long before the interval is reached.

Given the huge number of 1.9 and 2.0 PD engines in service, the numbers suggested above suggest that the problem isn't as big as you'd expect.