Devin Toner

wixfjord

Just wanted to get the boards opinion on Toner, and the future of the Leinster second row?
Had a good few games for Ireland in the AIs this year, and has had a handful of great games for Leinster (one against Munster down in Thomond).

However, I don't really rate him as the man to step into Hines, or Leo's shoes when both retire, as I think, and it's harsh to say, that he's a little soft for the really tough games. Wouldn't like to see him come up against Matfield, or even POC for that matter. Maybe he should grow a beard or something

He's a player who sort of flies under the radar a little, and with his height, and undoubted level of talent, should be someone we're all talking about.

That's my 2c, any thoughts?

Monty Burnz

wixfjord wrote: »

However, I don't really rate him as the man to step into Hines, or Leo's shoes when both retire, as I think, and it's harsh to say, that he's a little soft for the really tough games. Wouldn't like to see him come up against Matfield, or even POC for that matter. Maybe he should grow a beard or something

If he's going up against POC or Bakkies Botha, he may need two or even three beards.

almighty1

I think he is nearly too tall. I really don't think he is going to make it unless he toughens up and improves his mobility.

He doesn't seem to have the athleticism of similar 6ft 10in+ players like Andries Bekker.

justsomebloke

truthfully I think he needs to grow a set as I think the one thing he is majorly missing is enough aggression and self belief to compete at that position. Also needs a bit more mass on him. Yes he is heavy but for his height is in't as big as he could be.

Also from looking at him at the breakdown and when running with the ball I don't think he has been coached properly as how to come in at his height as he always seems awkward and not fully effective

CouchSmart

I rate him. He had a great game against Munster last season, and then was unlucky to get a nasty break of the ankle. He came back into the season strong, leading the lineout well in our first two HEC games this year and earning a well deserved call up to the national squad. He just needs to get a run of games really. His physicality is always there for the big occasions but it's in the lesser Magners games that he needs to work his physicality.

Bar a major signing, he'll be leading Leinster's lineout week in-week out, within the next two years.

GerM

It's an odd one. He has the talent undoubtedly but he needs to adjust some aspects of his game and play to his strengths. For a spell in October he was excellent and there was a serious clamour for his inclusion in the Irish set up culminating in caps against Samoa and NZ. He was arguably Ireland's best player against Samoa and certainly didn't disgrace himself during his time against NZ. It was a similar story in 2008/09 season where he started 4 of the pool games in the HEC and was excellent including a superb performance against Wasps. As pointed out, he was excellent in Thomond last season and had jumped Mal in the pecking order. I recall him putting in one or two shuddering hits where he just stopped people dead.

The main gripe people have with him is his ball carrying. He doesn't do himself any favours by entering contact upright and being smashed backwards. He needs to start using those cranes of arms he has to hand off people and use them to offload also. He has seen enough of Nathan Hines to see how it's done. People don't mention it a lot, but he actually has fantastic hands. I know his coaches from Lansdowne and his Castleknock days and they were always astounded at how good his handling was for a bloke of his size and gait.

The last element of his game is his overall meanness. To be a lock you cannot take prisoners and Toner needs to develop a harder edge. Technically, he's very good but he lacks that bit of nastiness and cynicism that's needed. Hopefully that's something he can develop but to be honest, at this stage of his development, he hasn't shown much sign of it.

3 years ago, I would have thought he'll end up with 50 caps and being a Leinster mainstay. Now, I think he could be in danger of turning into a journeyman. Sykes will probably get the nod ahead of him next season and Damien Browne is well capable of turning in some good performances. Next season is a real make or break for him.

myflipflops

GerM wrote: »

The last element of his game is his overall meanness. To be a lock you cannot take prisoners and Toner needs to develop a harder edge. of it.
.

This.

Excuse the basic language but he could do with getting the sh*t kicked out of him a couple of times and coming back for more. Just that hard edge that you get from locks like Hines. A year at Leicester might stand to him!

It's been a while since I've seen him in the flesh but he could also do with adding some more bulk to the height.

Dr.Evil

He's got some talent and potential..but I'd prefer him to get a bit more aggressive. He needs it.

prospect

wixfjord wrote: »

Maybe he should grow a beard or something

It worked for Chabal:

d'Oracle

Maybe he shouldn't then....

I don't remember Mal being aggressive, mean or vicious.
Come to think of it, neither was (arguably the finest Lock to play the game) John Eales.

He is a good player. He will improve and will probably be a mainstay of Leinster and Ireland in years to come. I don't think he will ever be as good as the likes of the current SA second rows or Chris Jack or anything, but he is a fine player.

Lustrum

I think locks tend to be a bit like goalkeepers in soccer in that they show plenty of promise as youngsters, but it is the years of experience that really make them.

Give the guy a couple of years, he will only get better and maybe after Hines leaves he will find what it is that he needs to really step up to the mark and establish himself in Leinster and Ireland's 2nd row

Zzippy

prospect wrote: »

It worked for Chabal:

Jesus, that's some difference. I thought that was David Walliams for a minute! :eek:

dastardly00

GerM wrote: »

........The main gripe people have with him is his ball carrying. He doesn't do himself any favours by entering contact upright and being smashed backwards. He needs to start using those cranes of arms he has to hand off people and use them to offload also.......

+1
He gets driven back way too easily whenever he is the ball carrier and goes into contact. Essentially the opposition are tackling a giraffe. Once you tackle Toner low, he'll fall very easily.
So, as you say, he needs to either learn to offload really quickly or hand off tacklers. As well as bulking-up a bit too.

smurphy29

Toner needs to improve in contact a lot. He just goes to ground too easily. With his huge limbs he should be able to offload in the tackle - if he can learn to do this, he could be a player, but right now he is not good enough to be the Leister first choice 2nd row.

d'Oracle

dastardly00 wrote: »

+1
He gets driven back way too easily whenever he is the ball carrier and goes into contact. Essentially the opposition are tackling a giraffe. Once you tackle Toner low, he'll fall very easily.
.

Sounds like a certain red haired incumbent....

Also, I don't recommend tackling Giraffes.

Tim Robbins

Men bulk up and fill out in their late twenties. It's rare you get good prop or second row who is under 25.

John_Rambo

Excellent point Tim Robbins. I'm no expert, but he has yet to reach his prime. Hopefully he will get to know his own body better and be able to control it to the max. He has done very well to get where he has and fair play to him. Seems like a nice fella too, saw him chat to kids on the sideline a few matches back.

CatFromHue

i think he is doing pretty well. its good to have him in the squad. next season with cullen the world cup (i presume) and with hines gone its a good chance for toner to put a marker down for the season.

his form in the early part of this season was very good. he played against saracens and racing in the heineken and wasnt found wanting.

its a bit too critical to say he isnt going to make it because of his ability with ball in hand. he is a second row after all. cullen tends to go straight to ground. poc and doc are mixed bags but neither are great in the loose with the ball.

Monty Burnz

CatFromHue wrote: »

poc and doc are mixed bags but neither are great in the loose with the ball.

POC usually makes no ground at all. He has the courage to call for the ball and take hits for the team, but it's very rare to see him actually go anywhere.

yosser hughes

prospect wrote: »

It worked for Chabal:

Wow!:D:D That's hilarious! Some difference alright.

peterako

I'll never forget an offload in the tackle that Toner made metres from the line in the U20's 6 Nations (I think it was the year they Grand Slammed last).
We went in for a try!

Sublime for a second row.
Give him time to grow (out)

conno16

he should move to the premiership..
worked well for cullen
similar players afterall

thebaz

i dont think its aggression that he is lacking , that many have mentioned , but seems to lack the physical strength of ruddock or mcloughlin - i will be amazed if he graduates further - wish him well whatever

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Men bulk up and fill out in their late twenties. It's rare you get good prop or second row who is under 25.

Devin is already 18 st 11 lb(According to leinsterrugby.ie), if he bulks up much more he might be too heavy to lift in the lineout.

jolley123

He's the same height as Bekker, but the difference between the two(other than talent) is that Bekker is physically bigger. If Toner can get as big as Bekker than it will add a lot more to his game.

Trojan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Devin is already 18 st 11 lb(According to leinsterrugby.ie), if he bulks up much more he might be too heavy to lift in the lineout.

They don't need to lift him very high

PhatPiggins

prospect wrote: »

It worked for Chabal:

The greatest con job of all time. Average international refuses to shave or wash for 2 years and is suddenly a super star !!!!

roycon

hes a good player just not a great player to quote eamon dunphy.
he needs confidence more than anything else i think. there are two options which could turn him into a superstar
A.) join the LA lakers and become Irelands wealthiest athlete as a pro basketballer
B.) send him off to leicester and bring him back in two years and hope he gets good

wonton

this may be a stupid question but im wondering do players like toner usually not want to bulk up or is it they find it hard to?


like why are there such big differences in player build in rugby? like is hitting the weights just not what some players like doing?

CIARAN_BOYLE

jolley123 wrote: »

He's the same height as Bekker, but the difference between the two(other than talent) is that Bekker is physically bigger. If Toner can get as big as Bekker than it will add a lot more to his game.

Not really Toner would only need to add four pounds to be the same weight as Bekker. Not really a big difference

http://www.thestormers.co.za/profiles.asp?id=50
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index.php?player=15302&includeref=dynamic

Tim Robbins

wonton wrote: »

this may be a stupid question but im wondering do players like toner usually not want to bulk up or is it they find it hard to?

I gave up rugby because I was a rake. Put on about four stone between 23 and 28. None of it was fat

I think your metabolism changes big time in your twenties. John Barnes is a very good example.

WeeBushy

wonton wrote: »

this may be a stupid question but im wondering do players like toner usually not want to bulk up or is it they find it hard to?


like why are there such big differences in player build in rugby? like is hitting the weights just not what some players like doing?

Some players just don't enjoy the gym. Can't remember which Irish player said it during an interview, but they said the one thing they won't miss when they retire is the gym. But they are all professionals, they all go and hit it hard. Obviously some will hit it harder than others. But some guys just have trouble bulking up. Some people just struggle to put on weight no matter how much they eat or what they do. I would imagine Toner is similar to this.

I would also say, being so tall is a hindrance in the gym. Weights have to be lifted further etc. Take deadlifting for example, Healy only has to lift the bar X high to complete the lift, Toner would have to lift the bar about twice that height, therefore making it harder, meaning he won't be able to lift as heavy. As a result would find it harder to put on muscle. That's you won't see many 6 ft 11 weightlifters.

jolley123

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Not really Toner would only need to add four pounds to be the same weight as Bekker. Not really a big difference

http://www.thestormers.co.za/profiles.asp?id=50
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index.php?player=15302&includeref=dynamic

This gives you an idea of what I mean, sorry if images are large.

CIARAN_BOYLE

jolley123 wrote: »

This gives you an idea of what I mean, sorry if images are large.

Dev looks tiny compared to Bekker, smaller arms and legs, I suppose one set of stats is wrong.

wonton

But in fairness to players that find it harder to lift weights or get bigger, its hard to belive the like rory best, devin toner, shane jennings spend as much time in the gym as the likes of pocock, mattfield, and sony bill williams.

Podge_irl

It's all in the beard...

Big Nelly

Best I have seen and this is why I rate Toner, Chabal got ball in match against Racing, he made a run at Toner, I guess thinking he was weak leak, Chabal bounced off him and landed on his ass, it really shock up Chabal, one of my fav moment this year in HC

wixfjord

wonton wrote: »

But in fairness to players that find it harder to lift weights or get bigger, its hard to belive the like rory best, devin toner, shane jennings spend as much time in the gym as the likes of pocock, mattfield, and sony bill williams.

Good point that.

Sangre

Toner's problem with running into contact is that he RUNS INTO CONTACT. Doesn't seem to have any awareness of space or lines like Hines or Gray do.

CatFromHue

dont hate him cos he is tall!

durkadurka

Nope , it's the beard!

Morf

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Not really Toner would only need to add four pounds to be the same weight as Bekker. Not really a big difference

http://www.thestormers.co.za/profiles.asp?id=50
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index.php?player=15302&includeref=dynamic

Bekker is very very quick when he gets up to speed and Toner seems to struggle to amble along most of the time.

irishbucsfan

Morf wrote: »

Bekker is very very quick when he gets up to speed and Toner seems to struggle to amble along most of the time.

Not really

Toner has shown pace at times for Leinster.

He needs another run in the team. I don't think he'll make the WC squad so I'm guessing he'll get his chance next season. I also think Cullen will retire after next season so Toner will be given a shot to prove he can succeed him.

Amazotheamazing

Some people just struggle bulk up, Felix Jones mentioned it in a recent article, he finds it very difficult to stay at his ideal weight, he has to eat loads to maintain it. Ronan O'Gara is someone's been a top class pro for over a decade, supposedly one of the hardest trainers in Munster but he can't add any bulk whatsoever. The other side of it is guys like John Hayes who have to have their training time restricted to stop them from getting too big.

It's a bit early to say which camp Toner falls into yet, imo. He's done well for Leinster so far, there's too many people expecting a player to be world class by the time he's 23 or he's finished. For every Sean O'Brien who's physically there in his early 20's there will also be a Mike Ross who comes into his best in his late 20's/early 30's.

val_jester

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Some people just struggle bulk up, Felix Jones mentioned it in a recent article, he finds it very difficult to stay at his ideal weight, he has to eat loads to maintain it. Ronan O'Gara is someone's been a top class pro for over a decade, supposedly one of the hardest trainers in Munster but he can't add any bulk whatsoever. The other side of it is guys like John Hayes who have to have their training time restricted to stop them from getting too big.

It's a bit early to say which camp Toner falls into yet, imo. He's done well for Leinster so far, there's too many people expecting a player to be world class by the time he's 23 or he's finished. For every Sean O'Brien who's physically there in his early 20's there will also be a Mike Ross who comes into his best in his late 20's/early 30's.

The two of them along with pocock are all from farming backgrounds so they'd have a lot of natural strenght.
Difference between Bekker and Toner is that bekker seems to have natural power, like ferris, that is down to genetics and unfortunately something that can't be learned or built up in the gym. If Toner gains much more weight he will be too heavy to lift in the lineout. For all the criticism of Poc and his carrying, at least he always provides quick clean ball, he is very good at counterrucking. Toner will probably hold the Leinster jersey for a few years but i would imagine that the young munster players will overtake him at international level.

Amazotheamazing

POC gets criticised unfairly imo, he's not looking to make yards when he carries, he's usually looking to turn bad ball into decent ball and set it up quickly for the speedsters like O'Brien and Wallace. He's more about creating space than running into it.

There's a host of guys like Toner, Nagle and Touhy who's career could go either at this point, I don't think we can any of their careers yet.

rockman15

im delighted someone has finally brought this thread to the light of the world!!

Im tired of hearing how great toner is. I spoke in another thread about the tendancy for irish locks of this current generation to just hit the deck at contact, or even before it. Leo POC DOC MOK all guilty of it. I think ive only seen POC make the gain line 5 or 6 times this season. Toner equally adept at this fallacy of making the hard yards...to the right or left. Utterly pointless and probably explains why he couldnt challenge Hines for a jersey this season. As far as Im concerned he was the default candidate for the sub position. There simply was no alternative in the squad.

When sitting in the RDS during the Ulster SF match, Toner goes to make a tackle. Im not joking about this, by the time it had taken him to bend over and make for the opposing players legs, said opponent was 5m past him counter attacking ball in hand. Toner left grasping at a shadow. During the same game a scrum was called. The fundamentals of toners scrummaging are pathetic. His back is arched the whole time he's down. The physics of a scrum require straight, rigid lines to effect pressure in a given direction. Not an accordion in the middle of it. He offers no support to his prop nor is any help to the 8. I honestly believe he is physiologically unsuited to the second row. Good locks are well obviously large people but they are built in symmetry, with torso lengths and legs lengths almost identical. Toner has legs like a crane fly. As a result he cant get low enough at ruck time either and is swatted away.
This is not an isolated incident but has been happening now for 2 seasons and really isnt acceptable.

As far as Im concerned Toner's only strengths are lineouts and restarts. Beyond that there is nothing he does better than Kevin McLoughlin.

I think the branch made a mistake with this guy. He was a risky investment as they never knew if he would fill out. It shows the importance reliance that the NFL put into the biomechanic tests they put their draft players through for both positional and technical attributes. I appreciate the games he has played well in, but I think if Leinster and Ireland are to start challenging the limits of the lock forward we need to cut our losses with toner and give someone else shot.

razorblunt

The strange thinge about Toner is that going forward he's a bit like Malcolm O'Kelly was, where he looks like he lacks the physicality to break through a wet paper bag but in defence he puts in some great hits and really drives his man backwards, it's a shame he can't bring it to his allround game.

irishbucsfan

rockman15 wrote: »

I think the branch made a mistake with this guy. He was a risky investment as they never knew if he would fill out. It shows the importance reliance that the NFL put into the biomechanic tests they put their draft players through for both positional and technical attributes. I appreciate the games he has played well in, but I think if Leinster and Ireland are to start challenging the limits of the lock forward we need to cut our losses with toner and give someone else shot.

He weighs 19 stone but he couldn't fill out? He hasn't been trying. He's a line-out specialist. Rest of your post isn't really worth including because you obviously weren't watching Toner early in the season when he was actually playing regularly.


The only downside to his game is his attacking play, but he's no worse than Leo Cullen or Paul O'Connell were with the ball for the majority of their careers. He's better than Cullen even. He's a strong defender and he has a great work rate and I'm delighted he's one of ours. He'll lead the Leinster lineout for 10 years.

He'll replace Cullen after next season and he'll be a great player for Leinster.

sock puppet

rockman15 wrote: »

I think the branch made a mistake with this guy. He was a risky investment as they never knew if he would fill out. It shows the importance reliance that the NFL put into the biomechanic tests they put their draft players through for both positional and technical attributes. I appreciate the games he has played well in, but I think if Leinster and Ireland are to start challenging the limits of the lock forward we need to cut our losses with toner and give someone else shot.

I never understand this attitude. He isn't good enough to be first choice so we dump him to try out other inferior players

danthefan

Don't think Toner has really kicked on this season. At the end of last season he was playing quite well, I remember when we won in Thomond he had a fine game, did really well around the park and put in plenty of good hits. Hasn't really happened this season. Don't think he'll ever be an Ireland regular, maybe Leinster.