Can we just have one transgender victim megathread?

SugarHigh

The forum is starting to look like a transgender violence news RSS feed. The threads are usually just a link to a news story with nothing of conversational value added by the OP. Do we really need a thread for everytime something happens to a transgender person?

AndrewJD

I thought this earlier. Nuanced issue, probably best to have one thread if it's agreed it's a good thing to continue posting them.

hare05

New mega-sticky system seems much more organized. Good idea people

diddlybit

I'm so confused by this suggestion, I find it demeaning to the victims of these crimes. If someone wants to start a general thread on hate crimes against trans people by all means do so, but the scary fact is that it's possible to have multiple threads specific to different crimes due to their frequency.

I'm usre it wasn't the OP's intention, but suggestions like this read to me as "God, I'm so sick of hearing of another story of *insert minority here* been beaten up, it's boring me." Apathy can be dangerous.

Anyhow, if you want to see different threads on the first page, I suggest that people start them. No point in giving out about content, if you're not willing to contribute anything new.

deirdre_dub

A quick survey of the threads suggests that, if we are trying to "organise" things, then what we need much much more than a transgender violence megathread is a coming out megathread. The most common repeated thread comes from gay (and a few bi) people who are in the closet and are looking for help.

So let's put those gay and bi people into a megathread and have things nicely organised!!!

Eh, no, actually - what that would do is it would hide and marginalise those people. I hope the suggestion of a transgender violence megathread doesn't actually have the same motivations behind it.

If you are disturbed by the amount of transgender violence, then just don't read those threads. Skip over them! I skip over many of the LGB threads - it's easy to do!

AndrewJD

No but the coming out threads are cool because it is the actual person on the other end. Those threads are first and foremost for their benefit. So they get their own thread.

The violence threads are essentially all the same, but the distinction is that those are for our benefit. The victims don't know or care that we're discussing their horrible misfortunes. It isn't marginalising the victims of these attacks, in the grand scheme of things posting their story on an internet discussion forum isn't exactly noble or brave or particularly significant. I'd say the same if someone was posting Homosexual male attacked on quays type stories every other day.

This isn't a big issue, it makes little difference to me, it's just that on most forums I've been a part of, if a similar type of post comes up time and again they're usually merged and a megathread started.

Also minor point,

twinQuins

Or, you know, you could just ignore the threads that don't interest you. I think that'd be best for everyone concerned, rather than going in with the usual ****-stirring.

AndrewJD

I just went through and had a reread of 4 of the most recent threads to see what content comes through from them. To be honest, there's more bickering about the dissection the story, fact from fiction, loads about whether it was transphobia motivated than any actual discussion. Remember the victim blaming debacle? The second purpose of them is 'these are appalling' type messages. Obviously they are appalling, but so is every piece of news you read these days. I dunno, you're allowed to post stories and comment however you like, and I'd defend your right to do it, but they don't lead anywhere constructive. [Much like this post]

To conclude my contributions to this doomed thread, I still think there should be a singular thread to draw together these stories and to be able to discuss them more effectively, but I'm clearly in the minority. Adieu

P.S. about skipping over stories, I read everything posted here. I think it's important to understand trans issues as much as my own.

Links234

You know what, it's not exactly a bad idea, and if I was to start a megathread, the scope would be more than just victims of violence, it would be a general "Transgender issues in the news" thread.

But here's my question... is this a serious suggestion, or just another disingenuous attempt to troll? Because it seems to me that every time there's a transgender related thread, in comes Sugarhigh, and you just seem to want to stir people up. I've given up responding to you before, your posts on the thread that asked about the "T" word being offensive were just outright inflammatory. I'm not sure what your deal is, maybe you just enjoy an argument for arguments sake, maybe you're trolling, or maybe it's something else... I don't really care. You've got a pattern of coming into trans-related threads and disrupting them, and it's beyond tiresome now.

deirdre_dub

One reason why I believe a transgender violence megathread couldn't possibly work is because it would soon be trolled out of existence. Again, I hope that isn't actually part of the motivation behind the suggestion.

hare05

deirdre_dub wrote: »

One reason why I believe a transgender violence megathread couldn't possibly work is because it would soon be trolled out of existence. Again, I hope that isn't actually part of the motivation behind the suggestion.

That is a possibility... New posts are visible on the front page of boards and any trolls that see the single thread being updated will aggregate over time, but it's a good idea in that multiple stories in the same thread could be referenced by replies rather than searching the lgbt archives... But then again updates to a thread don't discriminate between new news or discussion...

Is it a case of a reasonable suggestion from a suspect source? I suppose what Sugarhigh doesn't realize is that with the amount of discussion these threads usually get, it would turn into an unofficial sticky and he'd have to stare at it on the front page anyway! :pac:

Or we can just stick to the system of replying to threads you have an interest in and ignoring the ones you're not. Meh. :P

KnifeWRENCH

I don't see the point behind most of the threads tbh. If a transgender person is attacked, and it's clear that they were attacked specifically because they were transgender, then it is an LGBT issue and relevant to this forum. However, there is not always sufficient evidence that it's a hate crime and in those cases I really don't see the point of addressing them.

With all that said, this is an LGBT forum and if posters feel these stories are relevant then there's no reason to bunch them all together. If I'm not interested in a thread, I usually just don't bother reading it.

Links234 wrote: »

You've got a pattern of coming into trans-related threads and disrupting them, and it's beyond tiresome now.

With all due respect, it's sometimes difficult to post in a trans-related thread without coming across as disruptive, even if there was no intention of disrupting.

Take the McDonalds thread - when the thread was started there wasn't sufficient evidence that the attack was due to her gender. And yet anyone who pointed that out was accused of "victim blaming". Also there was a thread a while ago asking would you date a transgender person, and posters who said they wouldn't was accused of being transphobic.

I appreciate trans threads may sometimes be targetted specifically for trolling, and that is a shame. But, just speaking on my own observation, I find a minority of posters on this forum to be very aggressive and overly defensive when it comes to discussing trans issues. Just my 2c.

twinQuins

I think when your (general, not you specifically) only contributions are to the effect of "why is this even here", it's pretty clear the intent is to cause disruption, as essentially it's attempting to derail the thread.

There's a place for addressing forum issues and specific threads are not it.

Links234

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Take the McDonalds thread - when the thread was started there wasn't sufficient evidence that the attack was due to her gender. And yet anyone who pointed that out was accused of "victim blaming".

No. That's not it at all.

This is victim blaming, and was called out for what it is:

Healium wrote: »

Looks like trans woman brewed up a s**t storm, and got a beat down for it. Don't mess with ghetto girls.

And let me just point out what I had said:

Links234 wrote: »

is this particular case a hate crime? maybe, maybe not.

should it be investigated as a hate crime? it most absolutely should.

And I'd say that my position was by far more objective and impartial than what other people were saying.

SugarHigh

No one has given a reason why they need separate threads. You are just posting news stories with no comment from yourself. Your not even allowed to that in AH. I don't why you're getting personal with when you don't even take an interest yourself in these threads. You just create them and then leave it's basically spam.

hare05

SugarHigh wrote: »

No one has given a reason why they need separate threads. You are just posting news stories with no comment from yourself. Your not even allowed to that in AH. I don't why you're getting personal with when you don't even take an interest yourself in these threads. You just create them and then leave it's basically spam.

So to clarify, your position is that its totally acceptable to create threads on the subject of violence against trans people as long as the OP outlines their opinion on it in the original post? Rather than directly opening it to discussion?

Seems fair. Righto. We'll get on that immediately.

Time to trawl through some rss feeds

SugarHigh

hare05 wrote: »

So to clarify, your position is that its totally acceptable to create threads on the subject of violence against trans people as long as the OP outlines their opinion on it in the original post? Rather than directly opening it to discussion?

Seems fair. Righto. We'll get on that immediately.

Time to trawl through some rss feeds

How about you stop putting words in my mouth?

I don't like how there is a group of people on this forum who gang up on anyone who disagrees with them. No one has yet to give a clear argument on why each incident needs a dedicated thread when there was already 2 on the front page.

Argue against arguments not posters. There seems to completely separate rules for posters of a certain group.

wonderfulname

SugarHigh wrote: »

...No one has yet to give a clear argument on why each incident needs a dedicated thread when there was already 2 on the front page...

Because each incident is a separate one? *slow clap*

It just so happens that there has been a spate of newsworthy incidents which are quite similar recently, there is no need for a megathread as there may not be another one of such notoriety for a considerable period of time. I find it odd that when faced with so many similar negative incidents you complain that people are talking about them rather than that they are actually happening.

One megathread that we probably could use is for LGBT issues cynics, where people can go to question the prevalence of hate crimes, the damage overtly camp men are doing to gay peoples perceived image and whether or not we should drop the "T" - these are far more tiresome and repetitive topics that seem to sneak into threads with great frequency.

Annasopra

Can we please discuss the merits/demerits of the suggestion rather than personalising the issue against other posters

Nebit

I think it would be quite a good idea... since the people interested would be the people who would look at it anyways. As for the comments on trolling ... who are we kidding they will troll anyways, no matter where your thread is.

Not only this but also in recent months it would seem the LGBT forum has just become one of constant Transgender threads about violence etc, now i do believe they should be posted but a megathread would be best.

Rev Hellfire

Perhaps rather than a thread for 'transgender victims' it would be better to create one specifically on the topic of trans-phobia and violence to said demograph.

Since really that's what these threads are about, it would provide a natural place of such 'general' topics to be posted whilst leaving the option open for more important incidents to be reported separately. And by 'special' I mean special interest like say occurrences within Ireland or against well known members of your community.

bitter_lemon

here is my twopence worth

i am not on here that long actively but i have been accused of being a troll, antagonistic, flaming (whatever the hell that might be ) victim blaming etc etc. blah blah :rolleyes:

it has really opened my eyes to how closed minded people are here. a debate and challenging a point is frowned upon.

i deal with quite a few transgendered people in my working life. just because i am gay does not give me the right to treat them any differently than the normal joe soap. that would be biased and unprofessional.

there are good and bad people in every walk of life.

most of the threads in fairness about transgendered people receiving violence here are just a news feed with no backing up or accurate investigation into the background or real cause of what happened.
it is too emotive for some and lacking in proper definition of what exactly happened.

edit - there does not need to be a super thread. just post accurate information with researched opinions. not something that the op plucked from the internet because it "touched" them.

hare05

Forums are designed so that discussed topics remain visible and other topics lose prominence. The reason these topics maintain their place on the front page is because they are still active.

Creating a megathread would be inappropriate as in order to be effective, it would need to be stickied, and when people eventually stop posting in it, it will remain there taking up space on the topic list.

Considering the sporadic nature of such topic postings, and the need for the newest actual news to stand out among the discussion posts, it would be inefficient to group them all together.

It would also be inefficient to segregate news into a subforum as that would obscure new topics which would require prevalence.

Is that enough of a reason?

Links234

What about a general "LGBT issues in the news" thread? Where all news topics, be they relating to gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans, or issues that are of relation to all (marriage equality etc.) can be compiled into one thread.

What do you think?

wonderfulname

I think it would get confusing if two things happened on the same day, I don't see why a megathread is necessary, there's simply not enough posting on this forum that any area of discussion causes disturbance, threads are clearly named, just partake in the discussions that interest you.

bitter_lemon

twinQuins wrote: »

Or, you know, you could just ignore the threads that don't interest you. I think that'd be best for everyone concerned, rather than going in with the usual ****-stirring.

ah ha you see it is not **** stirring but maybe a more educated and realistic view of the "real world"!
its called debating and challenging not **** stirring. these threads do interest me. because of the circumstances they were posted in with little or no personal investigation in what really happened. that is wrong.

bitter_lemon

hare05 wrote: »

Forums are designed so that discussed topics remain visible and other topics lose prominence. The reason these topics maintain their place on the front page is because they are still active.

Creating a megathread would be inappropriate as in order to be effective, it would need to be stickied, and when people eventually stop posting in it, it will remain there taking up space on the topic list.

Considering the sporadic nature of such topic postings, and the need for the newest actual news to stand out among the discussion posts, it would be inefficient to group them all together.

It would also be inefficient to segregate news into a subforum as that would obscure new topics which would require prevalence.

Is that enough of a reason?

i agree there is no need for a megathread. just more accurate unbiased posting.

bitter_lemon

Links234 wrote: »

What about a general "LGBT issues in the news" thread? Where all news topics, be they relating to gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans, or issues that are of relation to all (marriage equality etc.) can be compiled into one thread.

What do you think?

that a very juvenile response :rolleyes:
you should read peoples post clearly before jumping on your high horse!

Links234

bitter_lemon wrote: »

that a very juvenile response :rolleyes:
you should read peoples post clearly before jumping on your high horse!

It's a serious question.

What about a megathread for all LGBT news items? I don't see anything juvenile about it.

hare05

Links234 wrote: »

It's a serious question.

What about a megathread for all LGBT news items? I don't see anything juvenile about it.

Maybe grouping 'us' in with 'them' was considered juvenile.

bitter_lemon

Links234 wrote: »

It's a serious question.

What about a megathread for all LGBT news items? I don't see anything juvenile about it.

you mentioned an array of things there under one umbrella. you are also selective in quoting what you post. there seems to be a theme running here

bitter_lemon

hare05 wrote: »

Maybe grouping 'us' in with 'them' was considered juvenile.

that is terrible you would say such a thing. very disappointed.
but this is the way it is here. nobody can look outside the box. (except a few)
fight the fight - even though in certain situations it is misguided.
i'll leave you to clap each other on the back even though you have only one thing in common.
you are so consumed by what you are going through that you cannot see the wood for the trees and i think that is understandable.

Links234

bitter_lemon wrote: »

you mentioned an array of things there under one umbrella. you are also selective in quoting what you post. there seems to be a theme running here

oh come on! I quote what I'm responding to, and if I'm quoting a big post I tend to just quote the relevant part to get to the point. so what?

and yes, I mentioned an array of things there, so..? if people complain that the forum looks like a news feed, why not put all news items in one thread? are you going to actually respond to the merits of the suggestion or not?

what theme?!

hare05

bitter_lemon wrote: »

that is terrible you would say such a thing. very disappointed.
but this is the way it is here. nobody can look outside the box. (except a few)
fight the fight - even though in certain situations it is misguided.
i'll leave you to clap each other on the back even though you have only one thing in common.
you are so consumed by what you are going through that you cannot see the wood for the trees and i think that is understandable.

You say that trans news should be tucked away in a single thread and then ridicule the idea that the same rule should apply to news posts in general.

Dwarf among midgets comes to mind...

Annasopra

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Can we please discuss the merits/demerits of the suggestion rather than personalising the issue against other posters

This was a gentle request. It's now a warning that applies to EVERYONE. If you attack another poster in this thread you will be infracted.

bitter_lemon

hare05 wrote: »

You say that trans news should be tucked away in a single thread and then ridicule the idea that the same rule should apply to news posts in general.

Dwarf among midgets comes to mind...

i certainly never said anything of the sort. i agreed with you!
i said within context if you would just chill and actually see what i am posting.

@ links i am fairly confident that my post was self explanatory. all your questions will be answered if you go through my former posts in a careful and considerate manner. i detest repeating myself.

i understand now the nature of the problem. very accusatory and insulted when there was none meant. just on my part insightful and educated challenging on your views. the problem lies with you not me.

i will leave it there.... i'm going out

it is interesting how one rule applies to one and not another. but thats ok.

Links234

BL: Clear as mud. you seem to accuse me of something by saying I'm "selective" in my quoting, and saying that there's a "theme" here.

SugarHigh wrote: »

There seems to completely separate rules for posters of a certain group.

bitter_lemon wrote: »

it is interesting how one rule applies to one and not another. but thats ok.

You've both said this before, would you care to clarify that at all?

Annasopra

bitter_lemon wrote: »

the problem lies with you not me.

Infracted as per mod warning. The warnings apply to everyone. Please also pm me if you have any issues with moderation as per the forum charter

Aishae

its certainly a sensitive issue - i can see the point of the OP's suggestion. he/she isn't suggesting lumping all trans issues together in one big super thread - thus pushing the trans members of the forum away. The suggestion of putting trans VIOLENCE news pieces in one megathread is an idea with merit.
keeps the forum cleaner - not a stab at trans folks there. perhaps a better word is neat.

while its a bit OTT to attack the above suggestion with 'lets put all lgtb news pieces in one thread then' - because the original suggestion was specifically about trans violence not trans issues in the news - i can also see where that might be an idea too. not to lump all lgtb news pieces together put have a few megathreads on different types of news:
*LGBT violence (not just trans)
*LGBT protests
and so forth
not targeting or excluding anyone.

bitter_lemon

Links234 wrote: »

BL: Clear as mud. you seem to accuse me of something by saying I'm "selective" in my quoting, and saying that there's a "theme" here.




You've both said this before, would you care to clarify that at all?

i can only speak for myself and i only ever will. i'll leave sugarhigh to speak for himself/herself.
if you actually go through my posts in a concise and clear manner you will find your answer. instead of jumping on things with half a thought. i don't like repeating myself!
read the posts.
and its funny i wrote this reply ages ago but disappeared. i'm in a hurry now and don't do it justice.
it was probably the abuse in the thread that got it censored (not by me) so i hope this makes sense.
and if it dosen't i know it does and that is all that matters

Links234

Aishae wrote: »

while its a bit OTT to attack the above suggestion with 'lets put all lgtb news pieces in one thread then'

erm, I wasn't attacking the suggestion

another forum I visit has a single "media" thread where all news items are posted, and it actually works pretty well.

Aishae

Links234 wrote: »

erm, I wasn't attacking the suggestion

another forum I visit has a single "media" thread where all news items are posted, and it actually works pretty well.

yeah prob not the best word - 'reply to' :cool:

Chuchoter

I don't think there is any need for a megathread but I don't see the point of having constant threads on this person got attacked and everyone goes oh isn't that awful for 3 pages. Some actual discussion should be going on.

Aishae

theres a point - lots of newbies and indeed older members - wont touch a really long thread with a bargepole

hare05

Aishae wrote: »

its certainly a sensitive issue - i can see the point of the OP's suggestion. he/she isn't suggesting lumping all trans issues together in one big super thread - thus pushing the trans members of the forum away. The suggestion of putting trans VIOLENCE news pieces in one megathread is an idea with merit.
keeps the forum cleaner - not a stab at trans folks there. perhaps a better word is neat.

while its a bit OTT to attack the above suggestion with 'lets put all lgtb news pieces in one thread then' - because the original suggestion was specifically about trans violence not trans issues in the news - i can also see where that might be an idea too. not to lump all lgtb news pieces together put have a few megathreads on different types of news:
*LGBT violence (not just trans)
*LGBT protests
and so forth
not targeting or excluding anyone.

The problem with doing that is most people may choose not to subscribe to the threads due to the amount of discussion going on. And as a new piece of news cannot be differentiated from a reply to a previous piece of news, the thread will quickly become a horror to navigate for newcomers.

This may lead to a lull in people posting, the thread will slide off the front page and someone will create a new thread. Then we'll be back here shouting at each other.

Unless all those individual news thread types get stickied, but then the front page would be full of stickys.

The only other solution is a separate subforum, but that's been discussed before and the end decision was that segregating the forum would only serve to isolate members.

baby and crumble

I actually thought from reading the OP that the issue lay with people lobbing up links to stories without saying what they think, or anything to stimulate a discussion.

Sugarhigh wrote:

The threads are usually just a link to a news story with nothing of conversational value added by the OP.

I agree with that sentiment, and that would apply to any and all such threads. It's like when you see a thread with a vid in it, but just a vid. What am I supposed to do with that, you know? Whereas if you had a vid, and then a comment from the OP as to what you think about it, what it inspires in you etc., then discussion can move from there.

I mean think about it. This isn't a news board, its a discussion board. It'd be like someone just telling you a story in the street and then walking away. It's a bit confusing.

Aard

As long back as I can remember, the boards oldbies would ask OPs to present their own opinion. As zoegh said above, a lot of people don't do that. Most of the time this is pretty useless. Even worse are links on their own. This applies to all of boards, and not just this forum.

ongarboy

Just my tuppence worth. I also disagree with megathreads as they are often too general and all over the place. My suggestion would be to create a sub forum within LGBT related specifically to Transgender/transexual issues so that the audience interested in those specific topics can go directly to them withot having to wade through other lesbian, gay or bi threads that they may not be interested in. (likewise for the audience who are not interested in TS/TG issues). There appears to be a vibrant TS/TG community on boards who are active contributors so I think a sub-forum would be justified.

I have the utmost respect for TS/TGs but frankly, threads related to them do not interest me and I'm finding recently that the LGBT forum is being dominated by TS/TG threads and therefore the overall appeal of the forum is being reduced for me. I have a keen interest in Infrastructure, Roads etc and those forums have cleverly split all Road issues (due to having so many Roads based threads) into a subforum of Infrastructure and it works really well.

hare05

ongarboy wrote: »

Just my tuppence worth. I also disagree with megathreads as they are often too general and all over the place. My suggestion would be to create a sub forum within LGBT related specifically to Transgender/transexual issues so that the audience interested in those specific topics can go directly to them withot having to wade through other lesbian, gay or bi threads that they may not be interested in. (likewise for the audience who are not interested in TS/TG issues). There appears to be a vibrant TS/TG community on boards who are active contributors so I think a sub-forum would be justified.

I have the utmost respect for TS/TGs but frankly, threads related to them do not interest me and I'm finding recently that the LGBT forum is being dominated by TS/TG threads and therefore the overall appeal of the forum is being reduced for me. I have a keen interest in Infrastructure, Roads etc and those forums have cleverly split all Road issues (due to having so many Roads based threads) into a subforum of Infrastructure and it works really well.

Such a suggestion has already been made and turned down in the past.

The problem is that hiding away trans issues in a subforum gives the appearance that they are unimportant when compared to LGB issues, and new members may believe the forum isn't inclusive.

The way I see it, trans threads are dominating the front page right now simply because we are, in general, more active posters. We're not trying to take over the place. It just seems that most LGB regulars have recently decreased the number of regular posts they make, and there just seems to be more thread-worthy news coming from the trans side.

Next month it might be the other way round, all LGB, the month after thst it may be an influx of coming out threads. There may be majority for a month only of butch lesbian posters.

Should we give pride its own subforum as many people here aren't interested in it?

Why not one for each letter of LGBT? What about Q, A and other less outspoken groups?

Were all grouped together as there are countless issues we all face together. Transphobia usually happens because of homophobic people. The possibility of them beating a gay person in place of a transperson is pretty high. We stand out more in ways its impossible for us to hide, but if those evil people were to come across an out & proud lesbian in McDonald's, the result would be the same.

baby and crumble

yeah, i don't like the idea of a separate trans forum, and the idea has been thrashed out so many times now it's getting a bit boring. Clearly the majority of posters don't want it.

I'm not trans, and yeah I do skip over some of the T stuff, but that doesn't mean I don't pop in every now and again and see what's going on in that community. This boards having T stuff out on the main page and me wading into it is what helped change my opinion of certain trans issues, so I definitely wouldn't like that possibility for other LGB posters to be taken away. I rarely visit sub-fora, ever, so I would never get any T news then, probably.

Just skip over threads you're not interested in, it's not like the extra mouse click will give you rickets or something...

hare05

zoegh wrote: »

yeah, i don't like the idea of a separate trans forum, and the idea has been thrashed out so many times now it's getting a bit boring. Clearly the majority of posters don't want it.

I'm not trans, and yeah I do skip over some of the T stuff, but that doesn't mean I don't pop in every now and again and see what's going on in that community. This boards having T stuff out on the main page and me wading into it is what helped change my opinion of certain trans issues, so I definitely wouldn't like that possibility for other LGB posters to be taken away. I rarely visit sub-fora, ever, so I would never get any T news then, probably.

Just skip over threads you're not interested in, it's not like the extra mouse click will give you rickets or something...

Might give you carpal tunnel :eek: or is this thread a battle against repetitive strain injuries?