Church Bells - repetitive nuisance

melvinudall

Hi all,

I hope that there is someone here that can help me. I live in Ringsend (Dublin 2) very near to the St Patricks church. My issue stems from repetition of the loud bells from the church. Usually I have no issue with this sort of activity.. once it does it conducted at a reasonable time and frequency. The church in question begins its chymings at 8am every morning and finishes these chymings at 10pm that night, 7 days a week. The bells chyme on the hour and on the half hour and in many instances at the quarter to mark. In some cases at the Hour, 1/4 past, half and 1/4 to mark... all in the same hour!

On the weekends (and B. Holidays) from what i can tell the chymings actually increase in repetition to as much as 4 times per hour. If even only twice an hour this is still 24 times in one day! at 3 times an hour this is 36 times in one day.

This means that you are woken up on a sat and sunday at 8am... for good! and you cant have a lie down at any one period during the day because of the frequency of the bells.

As you can imagine this is extremely irritating and frustrating, and i naturally feel indignant at the incredible lack of courtesy that the local church is paying to its residents.

Is this normal for a church??
i have a lived a few places in close proximity to churches and never experienced anything like this!

Does anyone live near this church? has anyone had the same issue? do you know what i should do? I have already contacted the EPA, Local Councilors, the police, and tried to contact the church!!

Can someone please give me some advice!

Asry

Are you talking about St Patrick's Cathedral? For some reason my mind is a complete blank and...


Wait. I don't think you are.



Can't you just go into the parish office?

mikemac

Doesn't sound normal at all

Around here in a rural area the bell rings at 12 noon and then on Saturday night mass and the two Sunday morning services

I understand in towns and cities the bell might ring every hour.

But definitely not four times an hour
Unless it's lads in there practicing. Which is fair enough, they need to practice. It might be sound carrying from a cathedral where they have bell ringers.

melvinudall

But i would have thought that in a built up residential area they would ring the bells even less out of common respect to other people! i have no issue what religion one is and who what system they subscribe too, but i do think its just plain ignorant to ring your church bell with such frequency. Further to this, the bells chyme when the church is closed. I called in this morning at 8.15am it was shut, but the bells has sounded, i called in last night at 9pm when the bells were sounding and the place shut!

Is there anyone that can point to be a piece of legislation, or a specialist in this matter, or a previous case!

Asry

It sounds pretty usual, I think. I remember in Galway, St Augustine's would chime like that. Sometimes it's for mass and mostly it's just to tell the time.

I guess you'll just have to put up with it. The same as in Islamic countries with the call to prayer. Just a part of the culture of the place I suppose

melvinudall

Asry wrote: »

Are you talking about St Patrick's Cathedral? For some reason my mind is a complete blank and...


Wait. I don't think you are.



Can't you just go into the parish office?

Yes, the one that is situated on Bridge Street in Ringsend! I have tried calling into the church but there is no one there when i do call, and i have tried ringing them several times

melvinudall

Asry wrote: »

It sounds pretty usual, I think. I remember in Galway, St Augustine's would chime like that. Sometimes it's for mass and mostly it's just to tell the time.

I guess you'll just have to put up with it. The same as in Islamic countries with the call to prayer. Just a part of the culture of the place I suppose

Why should residents have to put up with it? were not an Islamic deeply religious country... we're Ireland and its 2011 and i have a watch that tells the time without interfering in other peoples lives!

Asry

But yet the angelus is still on, and the church bells still ring. Write to your TD or something.

melvinudall

Asry wrote: »

But yet the angelus is still on, and the church bells still ring. Write to your TD or something.

the Angelus rings once a day on one channel that any person can turn off or mute, this is a fixed building that i cant mute. I have contacted the local TD's, i have tried to contact the parish priest, i have contacted the police and i have launched a formal complaint with the EPA!

Asry

and is their lack of response/action not implying anything?

melvinudall

Asry wrote: »

and is their lack of response/action not implying anything?

incompetence!

Meesared

melvinudall wrote: »

the Angelus rings once a day on one channel that any person can turn off or mute, this is a fixed building that i cant mute. I have contacted the local TD's, i have tried to contact the parish priest, i have contacted the police and i have launched a formal complaint with the EPA!

EPA??? Are you serious? :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

melvinudall wrote: »

the Angelus rings once a day on one channel that any person can turn off or mute, this is a fixed building that i cant mute. I have contacted the local TD's, i have tried to contact the parish priest, i have contacted the police and i have launched a formal complaint with the EPA!

I can't imagine what else you can do. I would have though that actually making contact with the PP (rather that just attempting to contact him) would have been the first port of call before contacting the Garda and EPA.

Go in at the end of a service and talk to the PP.

melvinudall

Meesared wrote: »

EPA??? Are you serious? :rolleyes:

The EPA are the only government body that deal with noise pollution

Meesared

Would going in on a sunday morning after a service perhaps have made sense?

mikemac

The gardai might raid the place and seize the machine and the timer

Yep, as above, go to the Church after the service, not at 8:15am or 9pm

Do you know where the priests live? Should be easy to find out and you can call around for a chat. You are a parishioner after all so they'll talk to you

hivizman

This thread in the Sustainability and Environment Forum from a couple of years ago discusses noise pollution. The Green Party is backing a Noise Nuisance law for Ireland, but whether this will be effective against public clocks that chime the hour, half-hour and quarter-hours during "acceptable" time periods is open to question. Your church bell is likely to be on a timer, which makes the bell ring automatically at pre-programmed times.

You are unlikely to get very far as an individual - the various authorities that you have already contacted are more likely to pay attention if you can get supporting signatures on a petition. But I dare say that many of your neighbours either don't care or actually like hearing the bells.

It may be possible to fit a damped or padded clapper to the bell so that the sound made by striking the bell is less loud. Would you be willing to contribute to the cost of this, if it is a possibility?

georgieporgy

The nice thing about city living is the cacophony of background sounds.

Donatello

My opinion is that a church bell should not be rung before 9am unless it is a special occasion, e.g. a new Pope, death of the Pope, or some other important event when a church bell may be rung at any time.

I would ordinarily allow bell-ringing between the hours of 9am - 9pm.

It must be said that these things do become part of the cityscape, just like the drone of traffic. I think it should be possible to get used to it. Failing that, there is always ear plugs.

PDN

If someone built a church next to your house and started ringing bells then I would see your point - but isn't this a case where the church was there before any of the houses?

If builders choose to build houses beside a church, and if people choose to buy or rent such houses in the full knowledge that the church is there and rings bells, then where is the nuisance?

I built a house in the country, beside a farmer's field. Sometimes his sheep break through the hedge and mess up my garden, and sometimes he spreads muck and the whole district smells like a baby's nappy - but I take the view that he was there first, and I knew that I was going to live next to a farming environment.

Asry

I agree. Those church bells were ringing before the EPA, and they'll probably still be ringing after it.

[giant sweeping assumption there]

Thinkingaboutit

The ringing sounds very frequent, way more than usual. However, talking to the PP would have been better than calling the Gardai and the EPA. Escalating a situation where there might be an oversight or mistake of some minor nature, isn't wise, and really can make the other party more stubborn.

ballsymchugh

melvinudall wrote: »

Further to this, the bells chyme when the church is closed. I called in this morning at 8.15am it was shut, but the bells has sounded, i called in last night at 9pm when the bells were sounding and the place shut!

do you really think that there are people inside pulling ropes to ring the bells every 15 mins?? technology has moved on!

Onesimus

It happens here in St.Patricks Cathedral Dundalk Louth. It has been happening for decades and nobody has ever complained.

Sounds like you just got yer knickers in a twist and are one of the few who complain. Have you perhaps contacted your local residents to request their feelings about it?

There are people who live in areas where planes fly over them and trains go past them regularly and I would just love to see them ring aer lingus up and ask them to change their route, or the train services themselves. haha I can just imagine it.

If ya dont like it, move to some other place, because it doesnt sound like its a big deal to everyone else who lives in the same area as yourself.

Onesimus

Lab_Mouse

melvinudall wrote: »

Can someone please give me some advice!

yeah,lighten up my man.

I'd say the guards ignored you for a crank.Same with the EPA and I guess when you finally manage to talk to the priest he'll ignore you politely as a crank.

Dont be at yourself

Donatello wrote: »

It must be said that these things do become part of the cityscape, just like the drone of traffic. I think it should be possible to get used to it. Failing that, there is always ear plugs.

That's true, but certain city sounds (police sirens, traffic, roadworks) simply can't be avoided. Church bells quite easily can be stopped though. It's not a consequence of other essential work - it is a discretionary choice made by the church.

PDN wrote:

If someone built a church next to your house and started ringing bells then I would see your point - but isn't this a case where the church was there before any of the houses?

If builders choose to build houses beside a church, and if people choose to buy or rent such houses in the full knowledge that the church is there and rings bells, then where is the nuisance?

If we extrapolated that view to it's logical conclusion, then nothing would ever improve. You're not putting a CPO on my house to build a new road or hospital, I was there first. You're not building that wind farm spoiling my view, I was there first. You're not directing air traffic above my house, I was there first. That's (thankfully) not how society works.

The church is but one stakeholder in all of this. Being there first doesn't give them dominion over the entire neighbourhood. They have to respect the rights of others, even if they were there first.

strobe

Our local church now only rings it's bell once a day, used to be every hour.

Basically someone took it upon themselves to go round with a petition, to all the nearest houses to the church, asking people if it bothered them. Most of them said yes straight off the bat (no body had probably ever complained before, I guess a lot of people will just 'suffer in silence' or leave it to someone else over annoyances like this rather than 'making a fuss', the good auld Irish way) and signed the petition.

It was brought to the priest by the petition maker and three or four others. That worked a charm. Anyone that is interested know exactly what time mass starts, and everyone has clocks, watches, phones, sundials etc nowadays. While some people like the bell, it's utilitarianism has obviously long since ceased and there is no Catholic dogma that says anything about a bell ringing every hour (let alone half or quarter hours which is definately excessive even for the most zealot churches).

If you get a reasonable priest (and have reasonable neighbours, I guess) that would probably be your best shot OP.

[joke]If not, I hear churches are both underfunded and poorly secured nowadays, with bell prices at an all time high[/joke]

Fanny Cradock

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

yeah,lighten up my man.

I'd say the guards ignored you for a crank.Same with the EPA and I guess when you finally manage to talk to the priest he'll ignore you politely as a crank.

That's all a little harsh. Please keep the "crank" remarks to yourself.

Lab_Mouse

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That's all a little harsh. Please keep the "crank" remarks to yourself.

Sorry just trying to think why the gardai and the EPA would dismiss the OP's compliant.Will be interesting to see what the response from the priest will be.

Having said that think the OP must be passionate about it.Registered in june 2010,no posts till now and 7 of them in the christian forum giving out about church bells ringing(1 in the A&A,where at this the stage trying to get rid of the angelus is seen as futile,and stopping church bells is even more futile!)

Asry

Maybe he just needed to vent, I guess, and then remembered his boards.ie account

It is a handy thing for the aul venting.

Also you sound like a detective there. I can imagine you now, in LA Noire being all mysterious in a fedora.

Lab_Mouse

Asry wrote: »

Maybe he just needed to vent, I guess, and then remembered his boards.ie account

It is a handy thing for the aul venting.

Also you sound like a detective there. I can imagine you now, in LA Noire being all mysterious in a fedora.

lol.Yeah was playing it earlier.Maybe I should leave the detective work to the game:)

maybe the OP registered in june '10 and got so distracted by the bells ringing 4 times an hour he forgot to post his rant then:)

GarIT

I'd go and complain during the mass walk right up on the alter and disrupt his mass, and continue to disrupt his mass as long as he disrupts your sleep.

ShooterSF

hivizman wrote: »

It may be possible to fit a damped or padded clapper to the bell so that the sound made by striking the bell is less loud. Would you be willing to contribute to the cost of this, if it is a possibility?

:eek:

It's the church's responsibility not to create noise pollution. Hardly fair the OP should contribute to padding because his neighbour is ruining the quality of his life!

If I was your neighbour and was constantly shagging at the wee hours of the morning on a noisy bed and it was tormenting you through thin walls and you called to ask if I could do something about the noise, honestly now, how do you think you would react if I told you you could contribute to buying me a new mattress?
I know how I'd react.

Quo Vadis

melvinudall wrote: »

Can someone please give me some advice!

Yep, say a wee prayer of thanks, that you have so little to bother you in life that the local church bell annoys you. Wait till you have some real problems.

How many years have these church bells been ringing and how long have you lived in the area ?

Church bells are calming/comforting, remind you of the time, and make anywhere sound like a nice area, would you prefer the sound of gunshots screams and muggings ?

Count yourself lucky mate.

Do you not think the Guards, the EPA and the local Priest have more important work to get done, without you annoying them and wasting taxpayers time and money with this bollocks ?

You should be out of your bed at 8am anyway doing something productive, what do you do for a living anyway ?

Asry

ShooterSF wrote: »

If I was your neighbour and was constantly shagging at the wee hours of the morning on a noisy bed and it was tormenting you through thin walls and you called to ask if I could do something about the noise, honestly now, how do you think you would react if I told you you could contribute to buying me a new mattress?
I know how I'd react.

what a completely inappropriate and pointless comparison to make.

hivizman

The sound of church bells has proved evocative to several poets. For example, the contemporary American poet James T Adair writes in his "Church Bells":

In the old church the bell does toll
and marks each passing hour
I never noticed it . . .

The full poem can be found here.

Wolf Haines, a young British poet, celebrates the sound in his poem "Church Bells":

Did I tell you about the time
I listened to the Church bells chime?
I wanted to listen all day,
But they stopped to my dismay.

The full text is here.

The Australian poet Edward Dyson (1865-1931) noted the central role played by church bells in the society of his time:

The great bell booms across the town,
Reverberant and slow,
And drifting from their houses down
The calm-eyed people go.

The full text of Dyson's "The Church Bells" is here.

On the other hand, Edgar Allan Poe's "The Bells" moves from enjoyment at "the jingling and the tinkling of the bells" to despair at "the moaning and the groaning of the bells" - see full text here. There's no record that Poe ever visited Dublin, though.

Quo Vadis

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

Manach

Offhand and in no way legal advice, one of the factors looked by authories at is if the "nuisance" is out of character with the local area and had the complainant made reasonable steps to talk to the originator of the "nuisance" about it.

Donatello

GarIT wrote: »

I'd go and complain during the mass walk right up on the alter and disrupt his mass, and continue to disrupt his mass as long as he disrupts your sleep.

I know that is against the law in the USA. Not sure about Ireland.

Anyhow, I am just wondering if this is a genuine complaint. I notice that the OP mentioned the 'police'. Do folks in the state refer to the police? I'm pretty sure they talk about the Guards a lot?

I just hope this isn't somebody out to cause trouble. I hope not. Forgive me if I am wrong, it's just a feeling I have.

ShooterSF

Asry wrote: »

what a completely inappropriate and pointless comparison to make.

Cause saying it makes it so, yes?

Comparison has inconsiderate neighbour making noise (not necessarily intentionally) tormenting fellow neighbour. Fair comparison to church bells?

Neighbour nicely points out the noise problem and asks them to do something about it. Fair comparison to going to the priest?

Noise making neighbour identifies one solution (quieter matress/dampened bells) and asks the other neighbour to contribute to the purchase. Fair comparison to the advice given?

---

The point was, remove the church and people's biases and offer the same advice and it would be seen to be ridiculous.

brooklynkid

I have same problem. living here 32 yrs & they started ringing 2 yrs ago.NOT EVEN BELLS THEY HAVE SPEAKERS ON THE ROOF went to everybody about it. NO help THE GUY IN CHARGE TOLD ME " I CAN DO WHAT I WANT" anyway I was told to move.Go to MarineParker.net search for bells & see what i mean

Onesimus

brooklynkid wrote: »

I have same problem. living here 32 yrs & they started ringing 2 yrs ago.NOT EVEN BELLS THEY HAVE SPEAKERS ON THE ROOF went to everybody about it. NO help THE GUY IN CHARGE TOLD ME " I CAN DO WHAT I WANT" anyway I was told to move.Go to MarineParker.net search for bells & see what i mean

Spooky!!! one new user with ''1'' post who agrees with the OP. Could this be...could it...I mean...is it you OP with different user account? :eek::pac:

Quo Vadis

Onesimus wrote: »

Spooky!!! one new user with ''1'' post who agrees with the OP. Could this be...could it...I mean...is it you OP with different user account? :eek::pac:

Maybe he's Quasimodo ?

The bells, the bells, the bells !!

strobe

Onesimus wrote: »

Spooky!!! one new user with ''1'' post who agrees with the OP. Could this be...could it...I mean...is it you OP with different user account? :eek::pac:

Admittedly they do seem to possess the same lack of respect for the correct use of capitalisation when typing 'i' or for the first letter of a new sentence following a full stop...

melvinudall wrote: »

from what i can tell..... and i naturally feel indignant...... i have a lived a few places
Does anyone live near this church? has anyone had the same issue? do you know what i should do?

brooklynkid wrote: »

I have same problem. living here 32 yrs & they started ringing 2 yrs ago......& see what i mean

Be honest with me now Onesimus. No lies. Are you Sherlock Holmes? :pac:

Onesimus

strobe wrote: »

Admittedly they do seem to possess the same lack of respect for the correct use of capitalisation when typing 'i' or for the first letter of a new sentence following a full stop...






Be honest with me now Onesimus. No lies. Are you Sherlock Holmes? :pac:

No! but maybe this is one pitch to add to my C.V when applying to be a Christianity mod. :pac:

gigino

strobe wrote: »

Our local church now only rings it's bell once a day, used to be every hour.

Basically someone took it upon themselves to go round with a petition, to all the nearest houses to the church, asking people if it bothered them. Most of them said yes straight off the bat (no body had probably ever complained before, I guess a lot of people will just 'suffer in silence' or leave it to someone else over annoyances like this rather than 'making a fuss', the good auld Irish way) and signed the petition.

It was brought to the priest by the petition maker and three or four others. That worked a charm. Anyone that is interested know exactly what time mass starts, and everyone has clocks, watches, phones, sundials etc nowadays. While some people like the bell, it's utilitarianism has obviously long since ceased and there is no Catholic dogma that says anything about a bell ringing every hour (let alone half or quarter hours which is definately excessive even for the most zealot churches).

If you get a reasonable priest (and have reasonable neighbours, I guess) that would probably be your best shot OP.

Good advice there. Most people in cities nowadays do not go to mass, and they do not need bells wakening everyone - locals, visitors + tourists - if they are asleep due to a late night, illness, night shift or whatever. Get signatures of a few other people + tell the priest he is guilty of noise vandalism.

Quo Vadis

gigino wrote: »

Good advice there. Most people in cities nowadays do not go to mass, and they do not need bells wakening everyone - locals, visitors + tourists - if they are asleep due to a late night, illness, night shift or whatever. Get signatures of a few other people + tell the priest he is guilty of noise vandalism.

I'm sure you'll get a few anti-catholic cranks to sign for you.
Regarding noise pollution, the proper authority and judge is not you, but the The Environmental Protection Agency.

gigino

Quo Vadis wrote: »

I'm sure you'll get a few anti-catholic cranks to sign for you.

Nothing to do with"anti-catholic" or "pro-catholic". Where did Jesus say that bells should ring every 15 minutes from early morning to late at night ?

Earlier in the thread you wrote "Do you not think the Guards, the EPA and the local Priest have more important work to get done, without you annoying them and wasting taxpayers time and money with this bollocks ?"...well, get the residents to complain to the EPA and get them to take action against the Priest, if he is not more considerate to his neighbours first. Typically city residents - most of whom are not regular church attenders - prefer not to be woken / disturbed by bells every 15 minutes, to say nothing of tourists + shift workers being woken. People have watches nowadays to tell the time + cannot be bullied.

Quo Vadis

gigino wrote: »

Nothing to do with"anti-catholic" or "pro-catholic". Where did Jesus say that bells should ring every 15 minutes from early morning to late at night ?

Earlier in the thread you wrote "Do you not think the Guards, the EPA and the local Priest have more important work to get done, without you annoying them and wasting taxpayers time and money with this bollocks ?"...well, get the residents to complain to the EPA and get them to take action against the Priest, if he is not more considerate to his neighbours first. Typically city residents - most of whom are not regular church attenders - prefer not to be woken / disturbed by bells every 15 minutes, to say nothing of tourists + shift workers being woken. People have watches nowadays to tell the time + cannot be bullied.

Yep it sure is the nosiest thing in the city. :rolleyes:
Make sure you report it, theres a good lad.

They could also fall off and hit your head, don't forget the HSA

strobe

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Yep it sure is the nosiest thing in the city. :rolleyes:
Make sure you report it, theres a good lad.

They could also fall off and hit your head, don't forget the HSA

Ah, Quo you are being very unnecessarily confrontational tonight. That's not like you, lol. ( )

Fanny Cradock

Onesimus wrote: »

Spooky!!! one new user with ''1'' post who agrees with the OP. Could this be...could it...I mean...is it you OP with different user account? :eek::pac:

Let's see what else he posts before jumping to any conclusions.