Enda, don't plagarise Obama's speech - he's behind you!

edanto

I was fairly impressed when listening to Enda's speech yesterday, and thought it was well written and well delivered. He went up in my estimation, as I hadn't heard him deliver such passionate words before.

Then this morning, it appears that he plagiarised some of the content directly from Obama's speeches!

You can hear a short and direct comparison here - http://soundcloud.com/justinmactdfm/so-who-wrote-endas-speech

Was that supposed to be a bit of a back handed compliment? It can't have been accidental, but I think it's a bit lazy and maybe even a little insulting!

aidan_walsh

So much stupid hay being made of one paragraph.

Sir Oxman

He probably should have made some direct reference that it was parrotting part ofObama's speech - it is impossible that it was accidental or that his writers thought no one would notice, it was definitely meant to reference Obamas famous speech

Cookie_Monster

he didn't say

"Is féidir linn"

by any chance did he? :pac:

wylo

seems a bit risky what he did there, he obviously knew Obama would know, im sure that was the idea, but he should know that other people probably wouldnt see it like that, that said , if thats all it was I dont see the big deal, I thought it was half the speech or something, your talking about 2 or 3 lines of a good 5 or 6 minute speech.

Spacedog

He plagerised Harvey Dents speech in The Dark Knight too...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0309/politics.html

'This is the darkest hour before the dawn.'

He'll be ripping lines from LOTR next.

*Facepalm*

Liam Byrne

Spacedog wrote: »

He plagerised Harvey Dents speech in The Dark Knight too...

'This is the darkest hour before the dawn.'

He'll be ripping lines from LOTR next.

*Facepalm*

So you're assuming that the scriptwriters did the original?

A quick Google suggests otherwise

The English theologian and historian Thomas Fuller appears to be the first person to commit the notion that 'the darkest hour is just before the dawn' to print. His religious travelogue A Pisgah-Sight Of Palestine And The Confines Thereof, 1650, contains this view:

It is always darkest just before the Day dawneth.

Source : http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/darkest-hour.html

Knight990

I reckon that Enda did what he did as a show of respect - a sort of tribute to Obama.

loldog

Obviously it was consciously done.

.

Liam Byrne

If it's the FFers that are doing the ****-stirring on this, might I remind them of the day I heard a representative of theirs on The Last Word justifying spending a fortune with a U.S. web development company that had done the Obama website - instead of supporting our own "knowledge economy" by using an Irish one - with the immortal phrase

"Sure we could all do with a bit of Obama"

It couldn't possibly be double-standards from them, now could it ?

later12

It was obviously a conscious and direct reference to Obama's famous victory speech. Anyone who seriously thinks it was an attempt at plagiarizing Obama needs to pick their knuckles off the ground and open up a newspaper; that includes whatever media types were banging on about this on the radio this morning.

The Chicago speech is very well known and well established, you were supposed to have 'gotten' the reference. It is not unlike a situation where someone would deliberately quote or re-work Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream', or JFK's 'Ask now what your country can do for you...' speeches and some genius at the back pipes up 'but you didn't write that!'.

Whoever in the media started this plagiarising criticism really should be put back delivering internal mail in RTE.

end a eknny

think enda would make a good circus ringmaster which is approriate seen as he works with a bunch of clowns

stepbar

end a eknny wrote: »

think enda would make a good circus ringmaster which is approriate seen as he works with a bunch of clowns

thebman

later10 wrote: »

Whoever in the media started this plagiarising criticism really should be put back delivering internal mail in RTE.

I would suspect they have links to the opposition trying to stir up something because they are upset the new government managed to momentarily lift the spirits of the people of Ireland.

Dannyboy83

It's idiotic to suggest it wasn't done purposely.

"Ireland on the world stage - what to do? derp derp, copy Obama's speech, herpa derp"


Even if it had been plagarised, I'd rather Kenny delivered a passionate, plagarised speech, than to listen to Cowen sounding like he was reading the fcuking bus timetable

InigoMontoya

Knight990 wrote: »

I reckon that Enda did what he did as a show of respect - a sort of tribute to Obama.

Yeah, clearly this.

edanto

Yeah, I've changed my mind on this now that I know a bit more about it. Clearly, it was meant as a compliment and doesn't deserve the attention it's gotten.

pog it

It was clearly plagiarised and there is no way that it could have been meant as a 'compliment'. If it was, how pathetic. Kenny doesn't feel it, he is completely in the job for himself and not for the good of this country.

After listening to even the speeches of those introducing and thanking Obama at Westminister today it just showed up how poor and how drastically uninspirational Enda Kenny consistently is.

But if Kenny is who people want as their leader, then they (almost) deserve what's coming.

Good old democracy eh.

MaryDub

If only he had said something along the lines of....and I quote a great speece given by the man himself....he would have been fine.

pog it

He is terrible. He has shown no leadership since he got elected as Taoiseach.

I'm embarrassed at who the Irish people continually elect. What's wrong with them? Couldn't tell them that Bertie was anybody but God for a long time either.

thebman

pog it wrote: »

He is terrible. He has shown no leadership since he got elected as Taoiseach.

I'm embarrassed at who the Irish people continually elect. What's wrong with them? Couldn't tell them that Bertie was anybody but God for a long time either.

So who in your opinion should the Irish people elect for Taoiseach?

Captain Chaos

thebman wrote: »

So who in your opinion should the Irish people elect for Taoiseach?

That's the problem, you can't. You pick one of 3 parties and the morons that they have as leaders. Once the party is elected, the boys club run the rest of it. Dire system. THe public should be able to vote a party political system and then the leader, not the party.

pog it

thebman wrote: »

So who in your opinion should the Irish people elect for Taoiseach?

Shane Ross. It was possible if they had strategised and voted in only Independents and Sinn Féin.

This would be a better country with Shane Ross as Taoiseach.

Admittedly, there are few others in there I would trust.

Look in my own area a great candidate went forward for the local elections as an independent, in his 50s, had campaigned on so many issues for a long long time and is really passionate about the area. Truly deserved his place. His problem? Too many party faithful and the lack to see things as he does. The man is an intellectual and didn't have the false charm that some of the other useless party representatives had.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

Shane Ross. It was possible if they had strategised and voted in only Independents and Sinn Féin.

This would be a better country with Shane Ross as Taoiseach.

But Shane Ross is an Independent. How could we have possibly voted for him as Taoiseach - he wasn't applying for that job?

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

But Shane Ross is an Independent. How could we have possibly voted for him as Taoiseach - he wasn't applying for that job?

It's not hard. You use the 'forward thinking' part of your brain and think about which of the Independents would likely be chosen as Taoiseach amongst them if they were to form the biggest majority 'group' in the Dáil.

Fair to say that Shane Ross would have been the collective choice.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

It's not hard. You use the 'forward thinking' part of your brain and think about which of the Independents would likely be chosen as Taoiseach amongst them if they were to form the biggest majority 'group' in the Dáil.

Fair to say that Shane Ross would have been the collective choice.

Are you seriously suggesting that was ever any prospect at all that we could have had a government made up of independents (and Sinn Fein) led by Shane Ross?

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that was ever any prospect at all that we could have had a government made up of independents (and Sinn Fein) led by Shane Ross?

Where there is a will, there is a way.

I'm the one suffering the sight of Enda Kenny, Creighton, Varadkar and co. Why should I stay silent about other people's crap choices.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

Where there is a will, there is a way.

I'm the one suffering the sight of Enda Kenny, Creighton, Varadkar and co. Why should I stay silent about other people's crap choices.

You're living in a fantasy world if you think there was any chance at all that in the last election we could have ended up with a government led by Shane Ross with Sinn Fein and Independents. There was virtually no will for anything like that (as evidenced in the election results).

You don't have to stay silent about other people's choices, but at least come up with a realistic alternative.

Back on topic - the speech was clearly an homage. Kenny isn't a great speaker, but he did a fairly good job with it, fair play to him.

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

You're living in a fantasy world if you think there was any chance at all that in the last election we could have ended up with a government led by Shane Ross with Sinn Fein and Independents. There was virtually no will for anything like that (as evidenced in the election results).

You don't have to stay silent about other people's choices, but at least come up with a realistic alternative.

Back on topic - the speech was clearly an homage. Kenny isn't a great speaker, but he did a fairly good job with it, fair play to him.

It was possible. And if something is possible then it is realistic.

That wasn't the problem. The problem was that people were moving en masse towards FG.

And seriously, can you not do better than 'fair play to him'. He's the leader of this country. You'd expect him to give an outstanding speech at such an occasion. What he gave was average and most likely plagiarised.

And forget the argument 'well he's better than the last lad'. Enda must love that he was following after Cowen and Ahern, made him look all the better. But some of us have high standards of our politicians and judge them on their own merit.

As Ivan Yates said of him 'He's not the sharpest tool in the shed' and Yates has extensive experience of working with him.

pog it

This whole thing is so infuriating.

For years I tried to tell people that Bertie Ahern was a fraud and that the development was unsustainable. I'm on paper as having said so in 2004. But nobody wanted to consider that as possible.

It's the same type thing now. Putting all their trust in FG, Enda Kenny, and current government and not questioning them.

Come on, start questioning and put some cynicism to positive use.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

It was possible. And if something is possible then it is realistic.

That wasn't the problem. The problem was that people were moving en masse towards FG.

I get where you're going with this - Shane Ross could have been Taoiseach if it wasn't for the will of the people (and his own ambitions).:rolleyes:

pog it wrote: »

And seriously, can you not do better than 'fair play to him'. He's the leader of this country. You'd expect him to give an outstanding speech at such an occasion.

No. Enda Kenny isn't a great orator but he preformed pretty well. I don't expect him to give great speeches. I couldn't care less about his oratory skills; that's just veneer in my opinion and we've had far too much of that. I just want him to be able to manage our way through the current mess (the jury is still out on that).

pog it wrote: »

What he gave was average and most likely plagiarised.

For it to be plagiarism there must be some attempt by Enda Kenny to pass it off as his own work. That suggestion is laughable - that he would try and pass off Obama's most famous speech as his own in the presence of Obama and the world's media.

Come on, start questioning and put some cynicism to positive use.

I think you're blinded by your own cynicism.

colly10

pog it wrote: »

Shane Ross. It was possible if they had strategised and voted in only Independents and Sinn Féin.

This would be a better country with Shane Ross as Taoiseach.

A country ran by Independents would be a mess. If enough of them actually agreed on anything they'd be likely to form a party. I'd say the only thing you'd get a large bunch of independents to agree on is that things needed to change.

As for Sinn Féin, as far as I remember their plan was to put nothing into bank, don't pay back our loan and somehow find enough money before we go bankrupt to run the country without making PS cuts, only raise taxes. I doubt they even believed that would work

Sully

Ah boo hoo. Its an obvious case of mud slinging here. Nobody in their right mind would believe that Kenny would deliberately copy part of a speech and then make that pitch in front of the original author, the national and international media and thousands of people. Nobody is that stupid, never mind a bloody politician who is the leader of our country.

A bit of a drama lama was created but the **** storm didn't take wind as probably expected. I think there was an initial shock until it was pointed out that it was an obvious and deliberate act and nobody could be that stupid. His overall speech and ability to make the speech outweighed the nonsense. The person everybody thought was dull and wooden managed to produce a fine speech and say it passionately and with strong will. Took people by surprise and most people were applauding him. Of course someone in the Dublin media is going to try damage his rep.

Anyway, I personally think he has been a fine leader. He has easily been our best leader in sometime and recent polls have suggested his party and personal rating has considerably rose. Compare him with the leaders of other parties, and past leaders. You would be mad to think he is worse or the same.

True, I am a Fine Gael supporter. But, I am quick to point blame and knock the party or persons if I disagree with something. Not completely blind.

Our political system doesn't work, and I don't think it ever could work, with an Independent government or leader. We need party systems, but less restrictive. Shane Ross is a decent enough politician, compared with others, but no leader. Plus, the Irish people clearly don't want to vote just Sinn Fein and Independents. People want the party system and keep voting for the three big players (until the last election, for obvious reasons, where we only had two leaders in the pack)

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

I get where you're going with this - Shane Ross could have been Taoiseach if it wasn't for the will of the people (and his own ambitions).:rolleyes:


No. Enda Kenny isn't a great orator but he preformed pretty well. I don't expect him to give great speeches. I couldn't care less about his oratory skills; that's just veneer in my opinion and we've had far too much of that. I just want him to be able to manage our way through the current mess (the jury is still out on that).


For it to be plagiarism there must be some attempt by Enda Kenny to pass it off as his own work. That suggestion is laughable - that he would try and pass off Obama's most famous speech as his own in the presence of Obama and the world's media.


I think you're blinded by your own cynicism.

I'm not just judging him on that speech alone. And I have said if he did purposely imitate Obama's speech that was itself a weak effort in my opinion. The English did it properly. Original speeches and introductions. Was far more impressive.

sceptre

dvpower wrote: »

For it to be plagiarism there must be some attempt by Enda Kenny to pass it off as his own work. That suggestion is laughable - that he would try and pass off Obama's most famous speech as his own in the presence of Obama and the world's media.

No, for it to be plagiarism it merely has to be non-attributed.

There are few things that surprise me these days about people taking the work of other people and not crediting it.

thebman

sceptre wrote: »

No, for it to be plagiarism it merely has to be non-attributed.

There are few things that surprise me these days about people taking the work of other people and not crediting it.

Yes but if you looked into it, he could claim it as fair use :pac:

I'm not sure speeches even carry the same protection levels as a youtube video.

It is the content industry pushing for these copyright reforms etc... so I wouldn't be surprised if it only applies to music/video/games and nothing else.

AdMMM

I don't really see any real problem with this. It was meant as a homage to Obama. However, Obama has much better delivery and Enda's speech only served to highlight how bad he is at speaking in public

Denalihighway

i would question the intelligence or even the sanity of anyone who thought this was 'plagiarism'.

even I, who doesn't have the grasp or knowledge of politics of most on this forum, immediately recognised those opening lines as a direct homage to Obama and his famous (I thought!) victory speech.

there really should be no discussion on this plagiarism accusation. Nonsense.

I enjoyed the speech but thought he kind of overdid - especially as it was conspicuous when compared to hsi normal bedside manner. He kinda sounded like ring announcer at the village fare:) . But I say fair play to him. He's growing in most people's estimations. Hope it continues.

dvpower

sceptre wrote: »

No, for it to be plagiarism it merely has to be non-attributed.

If Enda Kenny had started his speech with 'I have a dream...' , or 'Ask not what your country can do for you .. ', but failed to attribute it, no one would seriously accuse him of plagiarism.
This is of a similar nature.

mossyc123

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0527/1224297845676.html

John Waters best sums up the horse manure spouted about this "plagiarism" :rolleyes:

Once upon a time we ‘got’ things and our default position was to assume others would ‘get’ them as well
THE FUSS about Enda Kenny’s “plagiarising” of Barack Obama represents a new frontier for the moralism that infects Irish politics and public discussion and gets worse every passing day.
“If there’s anyone out there who still doubts that Ireland is a place where all things are possible,” Kenny declared to the crowd at Dublin’s College Green on Monday evening, “who still wonders if the dream of our ancestors is alive in our time, who still questions our capacity to restore ourselves, to reinvent ourselves and to prosper, well, today is your answer.”
As several media organisations, including this one, have been at pains to inform us, this sentence is similar to a passage in Obama’s acceptance speech on his election as US president in November 2008.
A radio station got some of its grown-up staff members to splice together sections from the Obama and Kenny speeches.
One newspaper said that Kenny had “confessed” that the words were from Obama’s victory address, others published the quotations side by side and invited readers to “spot the difference”.
The Taoiseach had to expend breath and time explaining to journalists that he intended the reference “very deliberately” to be understood as a tribute and that he thought the passage so well known that he felt no reason to attribute it.
This was so obvious that I am amazed the Taoiseach didn’t just tell his interrogators to go get themselves a cop-on transplant.
“My speech was 470 words and the first 40 were a direct quote from Barack Obama in 2008, putting in ‘Ireland’ instead of ‘America’,” the Taoiseach explained, very slowly, to RTÉ.
Please reassure me there isn’t one person in the country who believes that Enda Kenny intended to pass off these words as his own.
Please tell me that the years of being pummelled with moralistic self-righteousness and PC nonsense has not finally caused us all to lose any scintilla of common sense we may once have possessed.
Even if you did not immediately connect the passage to Obama, something about Kenny’s construction surely offered a clue.
In November 2008, Obama was talking about his election as America’s first black president. On Monday evening, Kenny was talking about a flying visit by that black president to the country of his ancestors.
Even if you didn’t cop Kenny’s source, the equation of Obama’s visit to Ireland with some hoped-for turnaround in national fortunes was so disproportionate as to communicate that the Taoiseach was engaging in some kind of playful pastiche.
If he hadn’t been, it would have been crass and stupid, but if you watch the clip of his speech, it is clear that he was speaking with a twinkle in his arched-eyebrow, delivering a nod of tribute to someone he admires.
This is so obvious that I shudder at the necessity to write it down.
An Irish Times report forensically explained: “The section of [Obama’s] speech refers to the doubts of a people, to its dreams and possibilities and to overcoming the doubts.
“Mr Kenny’s speech closely followed the words of Mr Obama’s 2008 speech but with one or two small amendments, and the addition of a longer sub-clause.”
Tell me, I beg you: I have slept through summer, autumn and winter and awoken on April 1st, 2012.
We were once an intelligent people. We had wit and cop-on. We did not need everything spelt out. We understood understatement and irony and knew the difference between allusion and larceny. We did not take everything literally. We had a lightness of touch that was second nature.
We “got” things. Not only did we “get” things, but our default position was to assume other people would “get” them as well. We nodded and winked and allowed ambiguities to lie unmentioned and undisturbed. Common sense was common. We were simple but not stupid.
If there’s anyone out there who still thinks Ireland is a place where common sense is possible – you have had your answer.
We awake to find that the raillery of our ancestors has been obliterated and everything rendered literal, leaden and clunky.
Worse, the point of virtually every analysis of public phenomena is the levelling of an accusation, however preposterous, the unearthing of the “sin”, the locating of the theme that enables the accusers to gain the readiest access to the high moral ground. And, if in doubt, dumb down.
We congratulate ourselves on having shaken off the humourless judgmentalism of “traditional” Irish Catholicism, seemingly unaware that the worst aspects of this former dreariness have transmogrified and reasserted themselves in more banal and toxic forms.
Ironic Ireland’s dead and gone, it’s with na gCopaleen in the grave.
(For the avoidance of doubt, I should point out that the last sentence is not an original composition. It is based on a repeated line in September 1913 , a poem by William Butler Yeats.
I have changed several details, substituting the word “romantic” in the original with the word “ironic”.
I have also, by way of achieving a more contemporary resonance, inserted a reference to the late satirist Myles na gCopaleen [1911-1966], instead of that in Yeats’s poem to the Fenian agitator John O’Leary [1830-1907]).

pog it

That is John Water's opinion. I stick to my own opinion that if it wasn't plagiarised it was still a wholly uninspiring speech and I myself was far more impressed by what I heard at Westminister.

It's particularly pathetic that he started the speech that way. Shows he can't come up with an original and equally effective opener of his own.

What about Water's own use of maudlin language?
'The Taoiseach had to expend breath and time'.. Give us a break.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

Shows he can't come up with an original and equally effective opener of his own.

What a ludicrous suggestion.

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

What a ludicrous suggestion.

Ludicrous? How so? I can't recall Kenny ever proclaiming anything as heartfelt, inspiring or effective as Obama's speeches. So it makes sense he drew on Obama's speech to stand out and look good himself.

Woefully pathetic. It's a sign of the character and intelligence of the man. Completely average.

Bendihorse

pog it wrote: »

Ludicrous? How so? I can't recall Kenny ever proclaiming anything as heartfelt, inspiring or effective as Obama's speeches. So it makes sense he drew on Obama's speech to stand out and look good himself.

Woefully pathetic. It's a sign of the character and intelligence of the man. Completely average.

You are a big fan of the way the UK did it? Sure we can rip their show off the next time. Do you shop in Tesco/Marks & Spencer too? Pharma from Boots and car/leisure supplies in Halfords?

I agree with you about people being blind when Berty was around, I can and have been quoted by friends in 2010/11 as harping on that 'the construction industry unsustainable' and 'Berty is a conman' back in 2007.

Enda is not a media whore like Berty was and I believe that he has the best interests of the country and its people at heart (I wont even go into Cowen, he inherited a poisoned chalace).
This does not mean he will always say/do the right thing, no one can guarantee that (Garret made gaffs too), but I think he can be trusted to do what he believes is the right thing in the peoples interests, not primarily his own.

He is also very well got with world leaders and supposed to pack a much better punch in person than he does on TV, this I can only say second hand as I have never met the man.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

Ludicrous? How so?

You are suggesting that the Enda Kenny wanted to use his own speech, but couldn't come up with a good enough one, so decided on Plan B - use Obama's inauguration speech.

That's ludicrous.

pog it

Bendihorse wrote: »

You are a big fan of the way the UK did it? Sure we can rip their show off the next time. Do you shop in Tesco/Marks & Spencer too? Pharma from Boots and car/leisure supplies in Halfords?

"A big fan?". Not at all. I'm comparing the speeches. Also I really care about this country and I contribute positively in every way I can so this thing about shopping in Tesco and Marks & Spencer is a bit random. I am fluent in the Irish language (put lots of time, energy, money, effort, etc. in achieving this), I play Irish music and have taught it in the past, and I am seriously proud of our culture and heritage and our ancestors for passing on what they did to us. That is why I am insanely angry at who the current population continue to elect and then they are surprised, shocked, etc. about the aftermath. It's 3 years now into this crisis and I'm fed up with the majority of the Irish people, so much so I have to get out of here for a few months and am making arrangements with work, etc. to do so.

Bendihorse wrote: »

Enda is not a media whore like Berty was and I believe that he has the best interests of the country and its people at heart (I wont even go into Cowen, he inherited a poisoned chalace).
This does not mean he will always say/do the right thing, no one can guarantee that (Garret made gaffs too), but I think he can be trusted to do what he believes is the right thing in the peoples interests, not primarily his own.

He is also very well got with world leaders and supposed to pack a much better punch in person than he does on TV, this I can only say second hand as I have never met the man.

I truly and unfortunately have to disagree. I believe he serves power and fame and notoriety and is in it foremost for himself, and second for this country. It's my opinion and I respect yours but I do think there is not enough questioning going on amongst voters about the current strategy and Kenny's ability to do right by this country.

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

You are suggesting that the Enda Kenny wanted to use his own speech, but couldn't come up with a good enough one, so decided on Plan B - use Obama's inauguration speech.

That's ludicrous.

For crying out loud, I did not say he decided on 'Plan B'. I said he was not capable of coming up with a good enough opener and speech of his own without having to draw on Obama's words to get the crowd going.

The proof is in the pudding.

dvpower

pog it wrote: »

For crying out loud, I did not say he decided on 'Plan B'. I said he was not capable of coming up with a good enough opener and speech of his own without having to draw on Obama's words to get the crowd going.

You are suggesting that the reason Kenny used Obama's speech is because he realised he couldn't come up with a good enough speech himself - that is plainly ludicrous.

The proof is in the pudding.

He using of Obama's speech was a good (and deliberate) idea. Evidence of good decision making if anything.

super_furry

Jesus. I've never voted Fine Gael, probably never would, but Enda's speach last week was probably the single best performance I've seen from any Irish leader in my lifetime. Of course the opening paragraph was a tribute.

pog it

dvpower wrote: »

You are suggesting that the reason Kenny used Obama's speech is because he realised he couldn't come up with a good enough speech himself - that is plainly ludicrous.


He using of Obama's speech was a good (and deliberate) idea. Evidence of good decision making if anything.

? I'm not going to repeat exactly what I said a third time.

Sully

pog it wrote: »

? I'm not going to repeat exactly what I said a third time.

It sure reads like that.

If there was ever a storm in a teacup, this is it. Talk about hellbent to bitch and moan about anything related to Kenny. Find the biggest stick and poke as often as possible.