thanks obi-jim - you diamond you

i57dwun4yb1pt8

want to say thanks to for the advice ,

I thought I had my levels, metering and gain staging correct for the last few years, and you put me on the right track - so much so that its like a just bought a new studio.

( i even re arranged the room treatment and re measured it all )

I now understand the whole process, and how analog translates to digital in terms of levels and metering.

so this and a crash course in mastering by a professional friend has been a revelation.


particularly in how the mix sounds clear even at very low volumes if you are gain staging correctly.
and the seperation and image if each instrument stays clear and focussed.


I think alot of us amateurs are too quick to use either an eq , compressor or limiter plugin - to get where we want .

when in fact
proper levels , metering and gain staging , and the understanding of what should peak where - is crucial before even thinking of using a processor.

this is where the home recordist falls down,
and i now know that


Imho
the advice should be , before you touch a plugin make sure

1/ you have good room treatment .
2/ you are metering and gainstaging correctly
3/ you are tracking then mixing to the correct level as per point 2.

after that , plugins should be just tweaking an already good sounding mix.



thanks again

drumdrum

Fair play to yeh! You sound happier than a pig in s***!


My good sir, would you be so kind as to perhaps explain / share some of your gain staging tips with us?

My understanding is to generally aim to record everything peaking at -12 to -20db and to watch for clipping within plugins. (I work ITB btw)....

Obvious keep an eye on the output bus for clipping... )

i57dwun4yb1pt8

im only saying here my understanding of OBI jims responses to me
but the results to my ears speak for themslves.
and im all in the box as well

ive been mucking around at this for near 4 years now
and it is only now in the last 2 weeks its now sounding 'proper'
so to speak .

I understand now , and my studio and ears prove to me
that if your channells and groups are all levelled properly
then the end mix will sound good at low or high volume

but its the whole
where in the meter do i aim for , what meter do i use etc.
beacuse digital and analog levles are confusing as hell

then its a matter of taming any peaky stuff a bit like snares
and eqing to make space or enhance.


I realised I was still having channels to high , and tracking a bit to hot.
and the source fader should try never be louder or higher than the destination fader if possible
the last fader ( such as the guitar group ) should always be higher than the source fader
( such as guitar 1 - left )

anyway

the daw channell meter reads 0db as = the max possible - the place you should not go ;-)
this is a peak meter - you stay away from VU until the mastering.

my tracking level is now -18 on this meter
maybe peaking to -12 on snares .

so all the chanells are hitting around -18 when tracked bar some drum tracks

then when mixing and processing for a rockyish tune , they peak like this

may compress/ eq the snare til it hits -16
kick = -18
bass -24
distorted guitars -17
vox = -18
overheads -26
hats -30
ride -30
toms -18
room 1 = - 22


after grouping and mixing - including reverbs , parallel comps etc

drums group are at about -14 on master peak
bass -22
vox - 18
guitars -18

all approx , depends on tune but this is the ball park

the master meter reads about - 14 peaks
and -28 on vu

then to simulate a mastering

i put a buss compressor just slightly working to glue the mix
then a master eq to sweeten the mix a touch

then a good limiter

this limiter brings it up to peak = -0.3 ( ie close to the max = 0 )
vu approx -14


im sure the top lads can pick holes in this , but it seems to be working for me .
its quite a drastic sonic difference for the better than the way i used to work at.

note im using bob katzs K-20 method
so -20 db digital = 0db analog = 85 db spl on the monitors
( so my tracking level of -18 db digital = analog +2 db )


i hope this helps !

drumdrum

DaDumTish wrote: »

I realised I was still having channels to high , and tracking a bit to hot.
and the source fader should try never be louder or higher than the destination fader if possible
the last fader ( such as the guitar group ) should always be higher than the source fader
( such as guitar 1 - left )

Just on this point:
Ok say I record two guitar parts at -18db and pan them hard left and hard right. I then send them out bus 1 to an auxiliary bus called "Gtrs" or something. Now, is it not better/easier to leave the original sources faders at unity (so -18 as they were recorded at) and to use the group fader to control the balance of the guitars? Therefore you only move one fader to control (in this case) two sources leves? This would be easier if there were more guitars to this group surely...

I mean, when you add two sounds to a group, don't they not sum together to increase the sound level? (I'm not near my gear to test this and I'm tired! )

Do you mean higher as in louder, or higher as in visually higher on the screen than the source?

(I may be over thinking things here!)

Also, thanks for the tips btw!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

yes, leave them at - 18

i mean the level of the source chan meter ( not fader ) shouldnt be up at say -12 or more

when the group or buss is at -18

ive been in situations where this has happened .
particularly if you put inserts on a source chan ,
you need to trim them down to get back to the orig volume.

this seems to be the proper and cleaner method.

drumdrum

DaDumTish wrote: »

yes, leave them at - 18

i mean the level of the source chan meter ( not fader ) shouldnt be up at say -12 or more

when the group or buss is at -18

ive been in situations where this has happened .
particularly if you put inserts on a source chan ,
you need to trim them down to get back to the orig volume.

this seems to be the proper and cleaner method.

I get ya now. Thanks!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i hope it works and im not talking thru my hole ;-)

danjokill

first off.... this is a great post ..... i have been waiting for this

I have started to re-read the bob katz book as i had forgotten some of this stuff that I had studied a few years back.

Here's a bit of my own hybred setup which I have suspected for sometime I have been not using correctly or more to point have been losing headroom in due to recording at to hot a level.

recording
mic or line> console or outboard strip > izradar analogue In > izradar digital out > RME HDSP in > cubase

playback
cubase> RME HDSP out > izradar digital in or Alphalink in> izradar analogue out or Alphalink Out > Console

At each stage i can monitor the digital signal with the exception of the alphalink which just has an LED indicating signal or none.

I should say that i normally track most stuff into the radar but the track count is only 24 and regularly have projects that go way above that. Hence I will track as much as I can there before moving to Cubase where I can group tracks and edit and track some more. I also normally work at 48/24. And i like mixing analogue bring my processed cubase tracks backup on faders via tape returns on the console.

My issue has always been what level I should be using as reference. Typically I would bring up a test signal (1kHz) @ -18dbFS in cubase on an output channel and the output channel would be set to zero.

I would first check the RME digital out is reading -18dbFS (good) and
I would make sure that the izradar now shows the same -18dbFS on it display.

I then need to set my Analogue meters I adjust the tape return till the meters read 0dB.

I then send (from my console master buss) the same signal back to the radar (different channels) and view a signal of -18dbFS. which goes to the RME which reads -18dBFS which goes to cubase that reads -18dbFS.

happy days or is it ?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

reading back some of this is incorrect for tracking

with steadier stuff like bass and dist guitars, synths etc
i have to aim for -18 or so as they arent as peaky

but
I have to treat drums a bit differently as they peak so highly.

so for drums I aim for peaks at

-10 for snare
-12 for kick
-14 for toms
-14 for overheads with loud snare and toms , - 20 for overheads with mainly cymbals
-20 for hats , ride ,


-18 -to -14 for vox as they are a bit peaky unless levelled abit going in
-18- -16 for bass as its not too peaky - especially it it is levelled going in
-18 for guitars - distorted as they are not too peaky
-18 for synths - not peaky


samples :
problem is with samples they are in most cases at 0 dbfs
so need to be trimmed into the daw


( ie superiour drummer snares , kicks etc are at 0dbfs , so use SD mixer to drop them down to the levels above in the daw - as if you had tracked them at the levels above for drums )

i think this makes more sense .


after any compression and eq etc , and grouping , reverbs , parallel compression sends etc

then i am getting on the master chan

drums at around -14 peak
bass at -25- -22 peak
vox at - 14 peak
guitars at - 16 peak

the master overall peak is at - 12 or so
master vu at - 26 or so

so then its up to mastering

danjokill

your processing is all itb ?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

yes

all ITB

Obi-Jim

wow, thank you for such kind words. Glad to be of help, you certainly seem a bit more clear headed.

Go forth and fix the audio world, spread the knowledge