Field judges at Juvenile Competition

daviddwyer

Yestaerday at Leinster schools, we witnessed some appalling juding at al long jumps and triple jumps. In particular, at 2 different competitions, parents of some of the competitors were acting as foul judges and also measuring distances.

Very apparent fouls were being allowed to some competitors, and marking from the wrong mark in the sand were noticed from others. In 2 competitions that I witnessed 4 athletes whose parents were judges all medalled. That is not to say that they wouldnt have had the parents not been there, but it was apparent to many people that favourism was being allowed.

In one particulare case, one athlete had 3 foul jumps in the first round but was allowed compete in the second round as there were only 7 athletes in the competition (bear in mind that the top 6 only in the schools comp should progress to the next round). This athletes mother was the foul line judge.

Surely this practice should be stopped whereby a parent of a competitor can act as a judge in that particular competition. It is very disheartning to the other competitors and also very un-nerving. Over the years I have seen it at many competitions but yesterdays was by far the worst I have ever witnessed.

It is hard enough to keep teenagers in the sport, but while competitions are now a case of who you know - it will only lead to a greater drop out rate.

Any protests made by the athletes and spectators fell on deaf ears yesterday.

Brianderunner

Thats a fcking joke. You're right, many of those present yesterday will give up athletics for life as a result. Mind you it happened at the highest level last summer in Santry at the nationals when the golden girl of irish long jumping was handed the gold after a clear foul. Saw it with my own eyes and couldnt believe it.

RoyMcC

David, I take it that you offered your own services?

The lack of experienced officials is a common problem, especially at schools' competitions. In my experience however it is lack of knowledge of the rules rather than favouritism, which is a strong accustation.

These competitions would not take place without parents' involvement. It is not easy when someone shoves a tape or stopwatch in your hand and you have to work it out for yourself.

The teachers (who are usually in charge) often have their own idea about the rules and won't be told otherwise.

The answer? More experienced and qualified officials. Put your hand up and make a difference.

bosco1975

RoyMcC wrote: »

David, I take it that you offered your own services?

I will put my hand up and state that I did not help out yesterday - the reason being that I am not technically proficient in either long or triple jump, and I do not agree with inexperienced judges... as you can see.

I helped on Wednesday (taking hurdles in and out) which requires no expertise.

I have stood around pits long enough to know where a foul line is.... and where to mark from, as have many of these parents, but as for the way to walk out of a pit, technical stages of triple jump etc - I dont know those particular rules. I have spent many many hours raking out pits, taking in and out of hurdles etc at various competitions.

My argument is not with lack of knowledge of the rules (which I know is a huge problem) but my rant is in regard to these parents/judges who knew the rules when other competitors were taking their jump but conveniently forgot them when their own child was jumping. This is not sour grapes as I did not have a child competing. But I cannot understand how a long jump was allowed when half the foot was over the foul line yet a competitor in the same round was fouled for a cm over..... there was no consistancy at all. If no one was fouled then they surely could claim ignorance of the rules.... but this did not happen

On Wednesday, I saw a foul judge help out at an early competition and he conveniently finished the judging just after his child had finished competing.

As a parent, I am very grateful for judges/officials etc as without them no competition could go ahead but surely there has to be some rule in which a parent of a competing athlete in a particular competition, cannot be solely responsible for the fouls or marks. This would avoid any accusations

This is not only true at the Schools - I have seen it at Leinster Athletics Comps also.... and the worst part of that is that there are numerous coaches who are up in arms as they have taken the Level 2 course and will not receive certification until they do a stint at officiating at competitions.... yet on competition day these people are not to be seen.

Surely it is not good for the competing athlete either as no matter how good he or she is - the other athletes will doubt the win due to the fact that Mammy or Daddy were rresponsible for the marking.

The solution - disallow parents of competing athletes officiate in a vital role when their child is competing... or at the very least have 2 foul and 2 marking judges

RoyMcC

Fair comments Bosco - I've been driven mad as well over the years. Unfortunately the one or two competent officials in charge need to drag any willing bodies in to help if a track meeting is to take place. Fair play to you for lugging hurdles about btw. And I suppose, if Mum or Dad are going to help out, they want to see little Jimmy or little Flossie compete at the same time. Of course there's no excuse for cheating, or turning a blind eye, or even carelessness. But what is the lead official going to say? 'Don't cheat!', 'Don't be careless!' Of course not. You have to rely on someone's integrity.

I believe the athletics clubs - especially those with track facilities, have a role to play here. They hold the (dwindling) officiating expertise. It doesn't take much effort to organise basic seminars to bring coaches, parents, teachers etc. up to speed on the basics. If this is to be successful though you need good school/club links.

If it's any consolation it's not an Irish problem - it's a constant battle elsewhere

PS - I don't know about having two foul judges. Can you imagine if they couldn't agree?

longjump67

This old chestnut, yes well find it hard to understand how or why parents of athletes would be allowed to officiate at such a championship like the schools finals. Not sure of the set-up Re schools, but always asumed that teachers were in charge of officiating at these Champs.

Have this problem myself as I'm an official and a parent. I try to make sure that I am not officiating at the event that my daughter is at ( which means that I don't get to see her perform very often ) but sometimes it's unavoidable. When this happens I declare to the other officials present that I have a conflict of interests as my daughter is competing, will usually confine myself to less direct jobs, like rake the pit or carry back the Javelin or shot. Have even had to disquailify her fom a 60m sprint once, which left an akward silence on the road home and at home for a day or two but she knows i'm a stickiler for rules and hate any form of cheating.

There are alot of very good officials out there and would disagree that the numbers are dwindling. However I too have encountered bladent cheating in the past but find that this is fewer now. You can't run an event without officials but find it astonishing that this incident happened or was allowed to happen.

Who runs these champs? Was there a head field judge? Was an appeal made and to whom?

RoyMcC

longjump67 wrote: »

Who runs these champs? Was there a head field judge? Was an appeal made and to whom?

Good point. What does one appeal on though? If it's a mis-measure or overstepping it's over and done with and the team manager jumping up and down will do no good. The head judge will only adjudicate if the judge him/herself draws their attention to an uncertainty, at the time.

Best all round if the right people are in the right places - qualified officials leading the event, other competent persons doing the key jobs, willing helpers doing the fetching and carrying.

Easier said than done though. We all know people that have officiated at schools competitions as long as anyone can remember. They always insist on doing high jump, timekeeping or whatever. By reason of seniority they get their way. This is whether they know what they are doing or not. Two examples - from Jersey but I daresay there are similar all over.

1. I offered to help out on the timekeeping stand at a schools meeting. I was instructed to take the second placed runner. I should have known better. My time was slower than the third place watch in the first two events. (I'm not the greatest but I'm confident I get close enough.) What's more, all other times were given to 1/100 sec. They wouldn't have it that times should be rounded up. I waved them goodbye.

2. I was officiating a schools high jump competition. After the bar had gone up a few times a new competitor appeared and the team manager asked for the bar to be lowered for her. I said that regrettably that was against the rules. There was a rumpus and, in the end, the meeting organiser asked me to comply to keep the peace.

Much as I love my athletics I just don't enjoy working in schools' meetings as they're a law unto themselves.

thirtyfoot

Brianderunner wrote: »

You're right, many of those present yesterday will give up athletics for life as a result.

Come on, thats a bit of an over reastion. Cheating like explained by the OP is wrong but saying many kids at the receiving end will give up would lead me to wonder what kind of kids we have in our sport, losers and wimps. Jeez, I was never the most competitive of kids but if that happened to me when I was 13 or 14 it would have steeled my resolved. If they quit, let them off as they'll always be able to press the reset on the Playstation or Xbox if they get a few knocks. Would not be suprised if the kid with the cheating parent will not be in the sport in 10 years time as its more likely the parent was the driving force while the kid who was cheated will probably have gone on to bigger and better things and still be in the sport in 10 years.

Brianderunner wrote: »

Mind you it happened at the highest level last summer in Santry at the nationals when the golden girl of irish long jumping was handed the gold after a clear foul. Saw it with my own eyes and couldnt believe it.

And this is what really attracted me to your post. I'll assume you are not saying the so called golden girl was implicit in this as reading your post some people may get that impression?

RoyMcC

Brianderunner wrote: »

Mind you it happened at the highest level last summer in Santry at the nationals when the golden girl of irish long jumping was handed the gold after a clear foul. Saw it with my own eyes and couldnt believe it.

I don't know Brian, at this level anyway there would have been a plasticine marker clearly showing any foul. It's not unusual for the front bit of the shoe to extend slightly beyond the foul mark without leaving an indentation.

Getonwithit

Which of the long jumps competitions are you referring to David? I was watching Senior Boys, there was a competitors mother there but I dont think any competitor was let through to second round of jumps without registering a jump...

thirtyfoot

RoyMcC wrote: »

I don't know Brian, at this level anyway there would have been a plasticine marker clearly showing any foul. It's not unusual for the front bit of the shoe to extend slightly beyond the foul mark without leaving an indentation.

True RoyMcC, 'obvious' breaks cannot be a break sometimes. Didn't see the incident so can't comment on it being a break but would be terrible if it wasn't a break and an athlete was getting slurred on here.

Getonwithit

Can I even ask was it in the pit at the Clonliffe clubhouse side or the carpark side????

RoyMcC

thirtyfoot wrote: »

but would be terrible if it wasn't a break and an athlete was getting slurred on here.

Was more thinking it was the poor break judge being questioned. Athletes almost always respect the judges decision, right or wrong. A bit like cricket...oh sorry you don't play that in Ireland do you

longjump67

KellyProper.png

Was not at the event on that day, but someone sent me a photo of the last jump the next day to ask for my opinion.

Judge for yourselves

RoyMcC

longjump67 wrote: »

KellyProper.png

Was not at the event on that day, but someone sent me a photo of the last jump the next day to ask for my opinion.

Judge for yourselves

Thanks LJ - if that was the attempt being questioned then - on that evidence - the judge is totally vindicated. The conclusive evidence will have been a mark, or lack of it, in the plastecine. Do you go along with that Brian?

thirtyfoot

Looks like a measure to me because while the photo is not at the point of her takeoff from the takeoff foot it looks unlikely that the foot plant there will make a mark when she eventually does. Maybe those watching didn't know the rules and the judge did which is grand as they are the ones that mattered.

Brianderunner

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Come on, thats a bit of an over reastion. Cheating like explained by the OP is wrong but saying many kids at the receiving end will give up would lead me to wonder what kind of kids we have in our sport, losers and wimps. Jeez, I was never the most competitive of kids but if that happened to me when I was 13 or 14 it would have steeled my resolved. If they quit, let them off as they'll always be able to press the reset on the Playstation or Xbox if they get a few knocks. Would not be suprised if the kid with the cheating parent will not be in the sport in 10 years time as its more likely the parent was the driving force while the kid who was cheated will probably have gone on to bigger and better things and still be in the sport in 10 years.

I've seen it all before in my time in athletics (did T&F for 13 years) incidents like the OP witnessed definitely does turn kids off athletics. They become disillusioned with the whole thing and head to Gaa or soccer. Countless times i've seen bent officials letting the measuring tape slacken for their athletes while pulling it as taut as possible for other athletes, as far up as provincial level.


And this is what really attracted me to your post. I'll assume you are not saying the so called golden girl was implicit in this as reading your post some people may get that impression?[/QUOTE]

No the golden girl was not implicit in this. She clearly said "f*ck" to herself after the jump (meaning she felt she had fouled), as was witnessed on the rte programme that night. All this was debated quite passionately last summer when it occurred and that photo was the proof which won the debate for the other side. However, I don't buy that photo at all, who is to say it was her last jump that day?

RoyMcC wrote: »

Thanks LJ - if that was the attempt being questioned then - on that evidence - the judge is totally vindicated. The conclusive evidence will have been a mark, or lack of it, in the plastecine. Do you go along with that Brian?

A lot of the officials in the AAI are 50+ and their eyesight may not what it used to be, or maybe they just didnt want to know that there was a mark there. Several other athletes (some long jumpers) who were watching had the same view, that it was a foul and that the donegal girl was robbed of the gold. Are we all wrong? And don't get me started on the mens 800m heats. I lost a lot of faith in the AAI officials that weekend.

RoyMcC

Brianderunner wrote: »

Countless times i've seen bent officials letting the measuring tape slacken for their athletes while pulling it as taut as possible for other athletes, as far up as provincial level.

I find this hard to believe. I'm willing to believe in bad eyesight and error, even the odd instance of favouritism. But wholesale cheating? I never came across one such incident in my two years coaching and officiating in Ireland.

I was accused of it once though. I red flagged a MSB relay team up at Santry for a zone infringement and had an MSB coach bad mouth me from behind the barrier for a full 20 minutes

Brianderunner

RoyMcC wrote: »

I find this hard to believe. I'm willing to believe in bad eyesight and error, even the odd instance of favouritism. But wholesale cheating? I never came across one such incident in my two years coaching and officiating in Ireland.

I was accused of it once though. I red flagged a MSB relay team up at Santry for a zone infringement and had an MSB coach bad mouth me from behind the barrier for a full 20 minutes

Yep seen it plenty of times at the both the Limerick and Munster underage track and field mostly 8/10 years ago. The measurer is from the same club as the athlete and he/she (who kindly volunteered for the role :rolleyes:) adds a few cm's here and there to their athlete's jump by 1) Measuring the mark from the incorrect place in the sand making their jump longer by 2/3 cm's and by 2) allowing the tape to slacken just a small bit, maybe adding another 5cm, but thats the difference in many long jump competitions. It never affected me or my clubmates (just an interested spectator) but i know what i saw.

Wherever there is sport you will find cheating (or bending of the rules) unfortunately.

You should have reported that coach, even if i see where he is coming from. You were only doing your job, assuming you made the correct call. My relay teams were promoted to medals at the nationals more than once cause other teams were DQ'd, cheats out .