German insurer hired prostitutes as reward

LenaClaire

I know that prostitution is legal in Germany and Budapest but is it ethical for employers to do this? If I was a customer of this company I would certainly change my insurance. If I worked for them I would quit.

How sad is it that even now, buying women as a reward for someone else is acceptable in some eyes. You would think that someone in the company would have stopped this stupidity. What does this say to the women in the company??

This makes me sick.

http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/19/german-insurer-hired-prostitutes-as-reward/?hpt=C2

(CNN) – A unit of insurer Munich Re awarded high-performing agents with a 2007 party in Budapest with 20 prostitutes, according to a story to be published today in Handelsblatt, a leading German business newspaper.

According to a story preview published on the Handelsblatt website, about 100 guests gathered at the Gellert spa “and transformed the historic site into an open-air brothel.”

Handelsblatt reported that women wore armbands: red for hostesses, yellow for sexual favors and white for prostitutes reserved for top executives and agents. Guests coming into the party were searched before entry and forbidden from taking cameras inside, according to one guest Handelsblatt interviewed.

The newspaper said the prostitutes would get a stamp on their forearm to keep a tally of services through the night.

The company confirmed to Handelsblatt and other media the incident occurred. The party was “a clear violation” of company policy, Alexander Becker, a spokesman for the Munich Re subsidiary Ergo Versicherungsgruppe told Bloomberg.

Two employees most responsible have since left the company after an unrelated restructuring, Dow Jones Newswires reports. “We have to dig a bit deeper into details of that incident to see whether there are others still with us," Becker told Dow Jones.

TaraFoxglove

This kind of thing has always happened and will always happen. We just hear snippets every now and then. In a technological age it's just harder to keep things under wraps.

Macha

I don't believe in just accepting these things as if they're like gravity - inevitable.

TaraFoxglove

Macha wrote: »

I don't believe in just accepting these things as if they're like gravity - inevitable.

It doesn't really matter if you accept it or not, it's gonna happen! A small amount of people with power and money are always going to enjoy the excesses it brings. It was ever thus and it will never change. Where it is found out, noises will be made and it will be dealt with, but it won't change anything.

Macha

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

It doesn't really matter if you accept it or not, it's gonna happen! A small amount of people with power and money are always going to enjoy the excesses it brings. It was ever thus and it will never change. Where it is found out, noises will be made and it will be dealt with, but it won't change anything.

Well, there we disagree. I do believe in doing something to combat it.

leeroybrown

I suppose it depends on the morals/ethics of the location in question. In my experience the social acceptance of prostitution as a regulated area of employment in Germany is very high and the percentage of the population who admit to have used their services is also very high. Hell it's even taxable! I can completely understand someone having serious issues with it tho.

TaraFoxglove

Macha wrote: »

Well, there we disagree. I do believe in doing something to combat it.

You'll never be able to fully combat it, it's just not possible.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

they are not "buying the women" for gods sake, the women are renting out their time or the use of their body of their own free will for monetary gain.

good grief.

Emme

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

It doesn't really matter if you accept it or not, it's gonna happen! A small amount of people with power and money are always going to enjoy the excesses it brings. It was ever thus and it will never change. Where it is found out, noises will be made and it will be dealt with, but it won't change anything.

True. People with power and money don't play by the same rules as the rest of us, that's how some of them got to where they are in the first place.

In some countries not a hundred miles away they wouldn't even have to hire prostitutes, the men would take off their wedding rings, go pubbing and clubbing, then score! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately Tara is right, this is how things have always been, always will be and will never change despite moral outrage. We cannot control the actions or dictate the morals of others, we can only act for ourselves and do what we think is right. For example, if a wealthy powerful married man (or indeed any married man) approached me on a night out and asked me for s*x it's up to me to say no on my own behalf if I don't agree with what he wants. But that doesn't stop him going up to the woman beside me and asking her for exactly the same thing, and it's up to her whether she says yes or no to him.

As regards prostitution, we can only hope that the women involved in these "reward schemes" aren't coerced or trafficked into taking part.

At least they're more open in Germany about this sort of thing, it's rife in Ireland as well!

Macha

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

You'll never be able to fully combat it, it's just not possible.

So? That's pretty much an argument against doing anything about anything. How defeatist.

TaraFoxglove

Macha wrote: »

So? That's pretty much an argument against doing anything about anything. How defeatist.

It's not defeatist, it's being a realist.

LenaClaire

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

they are not "buying the women" for gods sake, the women are renting out their time or the use of their body of their own free will for monetary gain.

good grief.

1. If the women were there of their own will then good for them. They have the right to decide what to do with their bodies but the thought that an employer regards time with them as a suitable reward for employees is very degrading to any women that work at that company.

2. Sex trafficking is very common in Budapest. Can you guarantee that the women were there purely of their own will? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4532617.stm

Count Duckula

Of course, you have to consider - and I'm not saying I agree with this viewpoint - whether, given that the women gave their consent to be used in this way, we as outsiders should have any say in the matter. The men treated the women like commodities, but the women had agreed to those terms: that they would be treated like commodities in return for money.

Unpleasant, yes, and certainly reflective of the mindset of those high-flying executives, but morally bankrupt? I'm not so sure. Both parties were consenting, degrading to one set or not. Those women agreed to trade sex and sexual favours for money.

Perhaps the main issue should not be that this situation happened, but that the men wanted it to happen in the first place. If all parties are of a consenting nature - as was the case here, so far as we are told - would it then not be morally wrong for us to tell them what they can and can't do? It is the mark of a liberated society that anyone - regardless of gender - can do things without judgement or punishment from others not affected.

However, the focus needs to be on educating men not to behave in this way in the first place. They should not be seeing women as commodities to be used for their bodies, consenting or not. They should not believe that their money and their status entitles them to take whatever they want whenever they want it, regardless of whether that is true. This attitude towards women is reflective, I am quite sure, of the way they live their lives in general. Everything they want is there to be obtained if only they are rich and brash enough to obtain it. Young men in high-flying positions are actually encouraged to behave in this way.

The risk is that this mindset is not only androcentric, it is morally abhorrent. If it were merely an issue of gender, this situation could be resolved in the future simply by an increased number of women at the top levels and therefore taking part. The prostitutes would then be of both genders too and everything would be split down the middle... but that's not a solution. Regardless of whether one of these executives is a man or a woman, they need to have more respect for the opposite sex, the act of sex itself and, frankly, themselves.

Macha

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

It's not defeatist, it's being a realist.

Not really, you're missing the point. Efforts to deal with an issue are almost always beneficial, even if they fail to entirely eradicate the problem. Saying that you may not be able to "fully combat" something is stating the obvious but doesn't really make a case for doing nothing.

TaraFoxglove

Macha wrote: »

Not really, you're missing the point. Efforts to deal with an issue are almost always beneficial, even if they fail to entirely eradicate the problem. Saying that you may not be able to "fully combat" something is stating the obvious but doesn't really make a case for doing nothing.

I'm simply pointing out that certain excesses can come with power if you want to take them, and some do and always will.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

jujibee wrote: »

1. If the women were there of their own will then good for them. They have the right to decide what to do with their bodies but the thought that an employer regards time with them as a suitable reward for employees is very degrading to any women that work at that company.

the fact that men want to have sex with beautiful women is degrading to the other women working in the company? The only problem I see with what happened is that it doesn't appear any female agents had the opportunity to spend time with or have sex with male prostitutes, which would be a little discriminatory.

2. Sex trafficking is very common in Budapest. Can you guarantee that the women were there purely of their own will? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4532617.stm[/QUOTE]

you're comparing street walkers to high class escorts?

seriously?

LenaClaire

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

the fact that men want to have sex with beautiful women is degrading to the other women working in the company? The only problem I see with what happened is that it doesn't appear any female agents had the opportunity to spend time with or have sex with male prostitutes, which would be a little discriminatory.

2. Sex trafficking is very common in Budapest. Can you guarantee that the women were there purely of their own will? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4532617.stm

you're comparing street walkers to high class escorts?

seriously?[/QUOTE]

The fact that an employer thinks that women are something that can be "gifted" as a reward is where I have a problem. If there had been male prostitutes that had been rewards I would have been just as disgusted.

Yes, I am comparing street walkers to high class escorts. Just because one is on satin sheets and one is on the street does not mean that they are not being coerced. Coercion can be things other than direct violence.

TaraFoxglove

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

you're comparing street walkers to high class escorts?

seriously?

jujibee wrote: »

Yes, I am comparing street walkers to high class escorts. Just because one is on satin sheets and one is on the street does not mean that they are not being coerced. Coercion can be things other than direct violence.

Agreed. I love that people grade prostitutes as if some are worth more than others.

Wolfe Tone

If the women want to do it and are not forced...

While I don't have a problem with regulated and safe prostitution in general, this was inappropriate.

28064212

Out of curiosity, if the "reward" had been massages (without a happy ending), would it be more or less inappropriate/unacceptable/immoral/"buying" people? Assume the level of coercion is exactly the same in both cases

parker kent

bluewolf wrote: »

While I don't have a problem with regulated and safe prostitution in general, this was inappropriate.

I agree with this view.

But I think some people are letting a personal dislike of prostitution blinker their views. Prostitution is not a concern if the people involved are consenting. If a woman decided to earn money in that way, so be it which is where my desire to see the area safely regulated. Trafficking of women and women being forced into prostitution is obviously a terrible thing. But women choosing to be sex worker of their own free will is none of my business. Lines like "What does this say to the women in the company??" seem to ignore that some women will have chosen of their own free will to be prostitutes.

But all of that being said, it was extremely inappropriate.

MagicMarker

I'm struggling to find a problem with this, the only thing that I may not agree with is a business enterprise indulging in the sex trade for the benefit of it's employees. But even then, they did nothing illegal and assuming all the women were fully consenting then imo they did nothing immoral.

TaraFoxglove

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm struggling to find a problem with this, the only thing that I may not agree with is a business enterprise indulging in the sex trade for the benefit of it's employees.

The consent isn't the thing that makes it a bit weird.

What makes it weird is seeing Claus in work on Monday morning knowing you both banged the same prostitute last Friday night.

Awk-ward!!!

JCDUB

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

What makes it weird is seeing Claus in work on Monday morning knowing you both banged the same prostitute last Friday night.

Awk-ward!!!

Haha, I can just see them high-fiving each other across the boardroom table and suddenly getting flashbacks to Friday night..

Regarding OP, I don't see any issue here so long as the prostitutes were consenting adults. It's all legal and above board.

Re: Company morals, it's up to any disgruntled female employees to state their case. It seems that either none heard about this night or none were that bothered, as nobody made a complaint that we know about.

I'm sure there are other moral crusades higher on their priority list. Thank Jaysus we have a few thoughtful ladies here thinking of them.

Emme

JCDUB wrote: »

Haha, I can just see them high-fiving each other across the boardroom table and suddenly getting flashbacks to Friday night...

I'm sure they wouldn't be the first to do that. They'd be comparing notes, and one would no doubt be wondering why he didn't get what the other guy got...:rolleyes:

LeeHoffmann

Re: Company morals, it's up to any disgruntled female employees to state their case. It seems that either none heard about this night or none were that bothered, as nobody made a complaint that we know about.

or perhaps none felt comfortable openly stating their opposition to this, seeing as their employer supported it?

baby and crumble

I'm surprised not more people have commented on the fact that these 'rewards' were seemingly only given to male employees... Is that not pretty sexist?

TaraFoxglove

zoegh wrote: »

I'm surprised not more people have commented on the fact that these 'rewards' were seemingly only given to male employees... Is that not pretty sexist?

Yuppers.

parker kent

zoegh wrote: »

I'm surprised not more people have commented on the fact that these 'rewards' were seemingly only given to male employees... Is that not pretty sexist?

The article doesn't actually state whether there were only female prostitutes. Now I'm not saying it is likely that male prostitutes were there, but we don't actually know for sure. We don't know the sex of the "high-performing agents" either.

TaraFoxglove

parker kent wrote: »

The article doesn't actually state whether there were only female prostitutes. Now I'm not saying it is likely that male prostitutes were there, but we don't actually know for sure. We don't know the sex of the "high-performing agents" either.

In a few others articles I read on the story, the prostitutes were referred to as female:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,763541,00.html

TaraFoxglove

Having said that, I haven't a clue if all the rewarded agents were male.

parker kent

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

In a few others articles I read on the story, the prostitutes were referred to as female:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,763541,00.html

I hadn't read that, was just going on the OP. I guess we can assume all the employees were male and heterosexual or female and homosexual (or at least the people hosting it assumed that if the prostitutes were all female), but still I don't think the "why weren't there male escorts there?" argument is really the main one to make here. The ridiculously inappropriate nature of the company hosting an orgy at all is rightly the main focus of the thread.

Macha

The party took place in Budapest, Hungary. Even if you assume that there's no moral or other problem with consensual prostitution, how was everyone so sure the women were over 18 and consenting? Hungary isn't exactly know for its strict human trafficking laws and enforcement - quite the opposite.

What puzzles me even more is that it's quite likely a lot of these guys had wives/girlfriends? I'd be more than a little pissed off if my partner's company actively encouraged him to have sex with a prostitute.

The staggering assumptions that had to be made by the management in order to decide to arrange this sort of party just boggle the mind.

Jesus Wept

jujibee wrote: »

What does this say to the women in the company??

It says the same to the men.

Methvet Nian

I work in a company where it is majority male.
The men have weekends away and nights out for the Christmas party but as they are the majority they choose where to go, and it has been the case for the last 5 years where the women are not invited to the Christmas party as it is now men only.

As there are only 3 of us, and 30 men including management who go on these Christmas weekends away, we are just told 'it has always been this way, you knew this when you got the job'.

I find it hard to believe that this company had no female employees, and if so, why would they be excluded like this?

Perhaps this is how this came to light, perhaps they raised the issue?

For the fact that this has made news alone, it is clearly something not considered acceptable.

parker kent

Methvet Nian wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that this company had no female employees, and if so, why would they be excluded like this?

Nobody says they don't have female employees, it said they were rewarding "awarded high-performing agents". Whether there only were male high performing agents, we don't know. There is enough wrong with the story without adding to the issues.

Macha wrote: »

The party took place in Budapest, Hungary. Even if you assume that there's no moral or other problem with consensual prostitution, how was everyone so sure the women were over 18 and consenting? Hungary isn't exactly know for its strict human trafficking laws and enforcement - quite the opposite.

I think everybody in the thread that they don't mind prostitution is saying so in terms of consensual prostitution, not that they believe this to be the case in this instance. So people are not sure the women were over 18 and consenting, they are just giving a personal belief that prostitution is OK once the women are over 18 and consenting. Nobody here knows anything about the 20 women that worked the event, so we cannot actually say what it was like either way.

Methvet Nian

parker kent wrote: »

Nobody says they don't have female employees, it said they were rewarding "awarded high-performing agents". Whether there only were male high performing agents, we don't know. There is enough wrong with the story without adding to the issues.

I am not attempting to add to the issues unless the newspapers will be quoting me as a source.

I am wondering if there were no high performing agents that were female and if there were, were these women excluded from this event. If they had high performing female agents in the future, would they exclude these women. I would feel this would be inappropriate and sexist.
That is my thoughts on this issue as a woman.

CnaG

My immediate response to this story was one of utter revulsion - and that's not an exaggeration. I am absolutely infuriated that a company would even consider it a good idea. Why? I've no idea.

I wouldn't presume to judge someone selling their body as a prostitute so I don't think the issue is there. I understand that in many cases women who become prostitutes have no real alternative source of income, so my difficulty must lie with either the men, or the company.

Am I revolted by the men? I'm trying to imagine if I heard this story as an all male stag night story. I genuinely think I wouldn't feel as strongly about it, because you come to almost expect the objectification of women when a bunch of "lads" go for a night out on the town. Similarly, if the company had organised for, say, strippers to come in, again I don't think it'd be as problematic.

But somewhere among my sensibilites a line has been crossed here. This. is. wrong. I can't quite verbalise it, but it's to do with exploitation. It seems almost fitting that in a culture where you earn your reward by f*cking people over, the reward becomes f*cking people over. It's pretty much the epitome of alpha male hyper-masculine business culture. If I knew more of the specifics I could probably write something more academic than that. Guess it'll do.

TaraFoxglove

Macha wrote: »

What puzzles me even more is that it's quite likely a lot of these guys had wives/girlfriends? I'd be more than a little pissed off if my partner's company actively encouraged him to have sex with a prostitute.

The staggering assumptions that had to be made by the management in order to decide to arrange this sort of party just boggle the mind.

My thoughts exactly!

musicmonky

This is stating the bloody obvious, but anyways.

Client 9: The Rise and Fall of Eliot Spitzer
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1638362/

Inside Job
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/

Look at past French presidents most had mistresses , look at Berlusconi, Arnie, and the head IMF guy DSK

Once you make to the mega top you get (if you want) to play with all the toys. Its the roman empire all over again.

Where ever there is vasts amount of money, drugs, sex and dodgy deals are not far behind. High finance , politics and celebrity its all the same.
Its power and some humans can't help themselves.
Its the way its been and its the way its always going to be.

It literally is another world. Many of these people think they are untouchable.

Teddy_Picker

Hmm...I favour proper, regulated prostitution, no problems for me there, but I find this situation unedifying.

Why assume this is an appropriate reward for employees? Presumably many of them are married/attached, why facilitate cheating and dishonesty? Just because it's sex with a prostitute doesn't reduce the pain for the wife/girlfriend FFS!
It just seems to me to symbolise a lot of what is wrong in the corporate world, a grubby, dishonest world that breeds a sense of entitlement that is unbelievable!

I-Shot-Jr

If its legal then I consider it none of my business. I know this is blunt but thats genuinely how I feel about it.

TaraFoxglove

musicmonky wrote: »

This is stating the bloody obvious, but anyways.

Client 9: The Rise and Fall of Eliot Spitzer
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1638362/

Inside Job
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/

Look at past French presidents most had mistresses , look at Berlusconi, Arnie, and the head IMF guy DSK

Once you make to the mega top you get (if you want) to play with all the toys. Its the roman empire all over again.

Where ever there is vasts amount of money, drugs, sex and dodgy deals are not far behind. High finance , politics and celebrity its all the same.
Its power and some humans can't help themselves.
Its the way its been and its the way its always going to be.

It literally is another world. Many of these people think they are untouchable.

+1

I-Shot-Jr wrote: »

If its legal then I consider it none of my business. I know this is blunt but thats genuinely how I feel about it.

I think we've established in this thread that the legality isn't the main issue here.

Permabear

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TaraFoxglove

Permabear wrote: »

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Absolutely, that's why I said "a small amount".

You said that low-level employees are more likely to cheat/lie/whatever. I just think there a certain percentage who will always give in to the excesses that come with power and wealth, I don't think the percentage would be higher at lower levels. You come into contact with millionaires, billionaires and high-flying executives, presumably in a professional context. How does that make you privy to what they get up to in their spare time? No-one is going to admit to being a cheat.

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, apparently some of the invited employees partook. They could have said no...

Permabear

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TaraFoxglove

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't know - I was reading all about the Profumo scandal a few weeks ago. I know this was the 1960s but it was pretty eye-opening, the general scene of powerful men and call-girls. I'm sure many of the men involved were highly respected with wives and families at home and friends who knew nothing of what was going on.

You just never know!

Emme

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't doubt that your friends are honourable (similar people tend to hang out together) but some wealthy men do cheat. These are highly intelligent people who would be very good at hiding their tracks. They mightn't take part in s*x parties in Budapest, but they would keep mistresses whose stock in trade is discretion (as well as everything else :rolleyes:) so everything is rosy in the garden until one of them spills the beans like Sarah Symonds did with Gordon Ramsay.

TaraFoxglove

Emme wrote: »

I don't doubt that your friends are honourable (similar people tend to hang out together) but some wealthy men do cheat. These are highly intelligent people who would be very good at hiding their tracks. They mightn't take part in s*x parties in Budapest, but they would keep mistresses whose stock in trade is discretion (as well as everything else :rolleyes:) so everything is rosy in the garden until one of them spills the beans like Sarah Symonds did with Gordon Ramsay.

Exactly, increased wealth mean probably being able to cover your tracks better than someone on a lower income.

Permabear

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