Spanish Revolution!

Jululan

Have you heard about what is going on in Spain in more than 60 cities?
People from all ages and backgrounds are taking the streets in peace.
Politicians are living in a different reality, they have massive salaries, they don't go to work as often as they should, the people is paying more taxes for the banks mistakes.
The movement is quickly spreading, even in Europe and America.

http://democraciarealya.es/

I believe this is a great opportunity to change things!

BlaasForRafa

Jululan wrote: »

Have you heard about what is going on in Spain in more than 60 cities?
People from all ages and backgrounds are taking the streets in peace.
Politicians are living in a different reality, they have massive salaries, they don't go to work as often as they should, the people is paying more taxes for the banks mistakes.
The movement is quickly spreading, even in Europe and America.

http://democraciarealya.es/

I believe this is a great opportunity to change things!

How about discussing the relevance of this to Ireland and the relative lack of protests here?

Or are you just spamming with no intention of actually contributing to a discussion?

Jululan

Sorry, no spamming at all. I am just very interested on the Irish thoughts about it.
An irish TD told me last year: "Politics is the dirtiest business", very sad coming from our representatives.
What are the chances of the "spanish movement" spreading to Ireland?

loldog

It would help to explain what you're talking about, I presume you're referring to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2nmOQZEjw

Jululan

These are the proposals, quite general at the moment:


Proposals
These are some of the steps, as citizens, we consider essential to the regeneration of our political and economic system. Comment on them and propose your own in the forum!


1. ELIMINATION OF THE PRIVILEGES OF THE POLITICAL CLASS:

Strict control of absenteeism in their respective elected positions. Specific penalties for dereliction of duties.
Removal of privileges in paying taxes, the years of contribution and the amount of pensions. Equalization of wages of the average wage elected Spanish more dietary needs necessary for the exercise of their functions.
Elimination of charge associated immunity. Applicability of the crimes of corruption.
Mandatory disclosure of assets of all public offices.
Reduction of charges may be appointed.


2. AGAINST UNEMPLOYMENT:

Encouraging job sharing and reduced working hours labor conciliation to end the structural unemployment (ie, until unemployment falls below 5%).
Retirement at 65 and any increase in retirement age to eliminate youth unemployment.
Subsidies for companies with less than 10% of temporary contracts.
Job security: the impossibility of collective dismissals for objective reasons in large companies while there are benefits to big business controls to ensure that temporary workers are not covered with jobs that could be fixed.
Restoration of the grant of 426 € for all long-term unemployed.


3. RIGHT TO HOUSING:

Expropriation by the state of housing stock built in that have not been sold for placement on the market for rent protected.
Rent subsidies for young people and all those poor people.
To allow payment in kind to cancel housing mortgages.


4. QUALITY PUBLIC SERVICES:

Deleting unnecessary costs on government and establishment of independent monitoring of budgets and expenditures.
Recruitment of health personnel to eliminate waiting lists.
Recruitment of teachers to ensure the ratio of students per classroom, groups of unfolding and support groups.
Reducing the cost of tuition at any university education, matching the price of the grade graduate.
Public funding of research to ensure its independence.
Cheap public transport, quality and environmentally sustainable restoration of trains are being replaced by the AVE with the original prices, cheaper bus passes, restricting private car traffic in city centers, construction of bicycle lanes.
Local social resources: effective implementation of the Law Unit, municipal local carers networks, local mediation services and mentoring.


5. CONTROL OF BANKS:

Prohibition of any kind of bailout or capital injection to banks: those companies in difficulty should fail or be nationalized to form a public bank under social control.
Tax increases to the bench in direct proportion to social spending caused by the crisis caused by mismanagement.
Return to public coffers by banks all provided public capital.
Ban on investment of Spanish banks in tax havens.
Regulation of sanctions on speculation and banking malpractice.


6. TAXATION:

Increase the tax rate on large fortunes and banks.
Elimination of the fund.
Tax refund Heritage.
Real and effective control of tax evasion and capital flight to tax havens.
International promotion of the adoption of a tax on international transactions (Tobin tax).


7. Liberties and Participatory Democracy:

Not control the Internet. Sinde Abolition Act.
Protection of freedom of information and investigative journalism.
Referendums mandatory and binding on the wide-ranging issues that change the lives of citizens.
Mandatory referendums for any introduction of measures taken by the European Union.
Amendment of Electoral Act to ensure a truly representative system that does not discriminate and proportional to any political or social will, where the white vote and vote no also have representation in the legislature.
Independence of the judiciary, reform of the Prosecution Office to ensure their independence, the appointment of members of the Constitutional Court and the Supreme Judicial Council by the Executive.
Establishment of effective mechanisms to ensure internal democracy in political parties.


8. REDUCING MILITARY SPENDING

Jululan

I am surprised that this movement is not causing any reaction between irish people.
Is it not Ireland ruled by the financial powers?

20Cent

Jululan wrote: »

I am surprised that this movement is not causing any reaction between irish people.
Is it not Ireland ruled by the financial powers?

This is the first I heard about it, yes Ireland is ruled by financial powers.
There has been a full scale media campaign to get Irish people blaming each other public v's private sector stopping something like this happening. Hope it grows maybe it will catch on here.

dsmythy

Are you sure the people protesting actually follow your demands there? Spend spend spend is all I see. I'm pretty sure that's been the Spanish plan for years now.

Jululan

dsmythy wrote: »

Are you sure the people protesting actually follow your demands there? Spend spend spend is all I see. I'm pretty sure that's been the Spanish plan for years now.

And these people are against this too. Just take some time a read what are they fighting for.

Jululan

More info:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/WashingtonPost/Content/Epaper/2011-05-19/Ax1.pdf

Jululan

And more:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0518/breaking58.html

dan719

Jululan wrote: »

These are the proposals, quite general at the moment:


1. ELIMINATION OF THE PRIVILEGES OF THE POLITICAL CLASS:

Equalization of wages of the average wage elected Spanish more dietary needs necessary for the exercise of their functions.

What advantage is gained by only paying avg. industrial wage? You surely want to encourage expertise in employment. The most qualified will earn much more elsewhere, and show no interest. Obv. there is a limit on how much they should be paid, but it's not what you propose.

2. AGAINST UNEMPLOYMENT:

Encouraging job sharing and reduced working hours labor conciliation to end the structural unemployment (ie, until unemployment falls below 5%).
Retirement at 65 and any increase in retirement age to eliminate youth unemployment.
Subsidies for companies with less than 10% of temporary contracts.
Job security: the impossibility of collective dismissals for objective reasons in large companies while there are benefits to big business controls to ensure that temporary workers are not covered with jobs that could be fixed.
Restoration of the grant of 426 € for all long-term unemployed.

Underemployment is no better than unemployment.

Such subsidies for companies are deinitely illegal under rules on state aid

You want to improve mechanism of job market while imposing massive barriers to the same? That makes sense. :rolleyes:

WRT unemployment payments; IMO it should be a function of amount paid in and preferably replaced by private insurance scheme

3. RIGHT TO HOUSING:


Expropriation by the state of housing stock built in that have not been sold for placement on the market for rent protected.
Rent subsidies for young people and all those poor people.
To allow payment in kind to cancel housing mortgages.

State should not be allowed to seize assets in such manner.

Rent subsidies are a form of transfer payments to landlords

Surely assets can be sold and then used to pay down mortgages?

4. QUALITY PUBLIC SERVICES:

Deleting unnecessary costs on government and establishment of independent monitoring of budgets and expenditures.
Recruitment of health personnel to eliminate waiting lists.
Recruitment of teachers to ensure the ratio of students per classroom, groups of unfolding and support groups.
Reducing the cost of tuition at any university education, matching the price of the grade graduate.
Public funding of research to ensure its independence.
Cheap public transport, quality and environmentally sustainable restoration of trains are being replaced by the AVE with the original prices, cheaper bus passes, restricting private car traffic in city centers, construction of bicycle lanes.
Local social resources: effective implementation of the Law Unit, municipal local carers networks, local mediation services and mentoring.

How will this be funded? How will you take on a bloated public sector that is so heavily favoured by employment leglislation proposed above?

5. CONTROL OF BANKS:

Prohibition of any kind of bailout or capital injection to banks: those companies in difficulty should fail or be nationalized to form a public bank under social control.
Tax increases to the bench in direct proportion to social spending caused by the crisis caused by mismanagement.
Return to public coffers by banks all provided public capital.
Ban on investment of Spanish banks in tax havens.
Regulation of sanctions on speculation and banking malpractice.

Nationalisation will still lead to taking on of liabilities. It's a bailout by any other name.

Presumably it will be loss making banks that cause 'increased social spending'? Surely taxing them for same won't help.

Banks would immediately collapse if imposed.

Regualtion exists. It has to be enforced.

6. TAXATION:

Increase the tax rate on large fortunes and banks.
Elimination of the fund.
Tax refund Heritage.
Real and effective control of tax evasion and capital flight to tax havens.
International promotion of the adoption of a tax on international transactions (Tobin tax).

Taxation is disincentive for economic activity

See above

???

Tax evasion is dealt with under law. Don't confuse it with avoidance

Tobin tax would have little effect on speculation. Also, won't be imposed globally, so anti-competitive.

Jululan

More news:

http://translate.google.ie/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elmundo.es%2Felmundo%2F2011%2F05%2F19%2Finternacional%2F1305800285.html

seeing_ie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygpjC-rD1Vg&NR=1

Seems like a genuine movement with logical and reasonable proposals imo.

wingnuts start slagging it off in 5....4...

BlaasForRafa

20Cent wrote: »

This is the first I heard about it, yes Ireland is ruled by financial powers.
There has been a full scale media campaign to get Irish people blaming each other public v's private sector stopping something like this happening. Hope it grows maybe it will catch on here.

Eh no, there is a public vs private debate because of the excessive wages that PS workers get and the inefficiencies in the public sector that contribute massively towards Irelands sovereign debt.

20Cent

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Eh no, there is a public vs private debate because of the excessive wages that PS workers get and the inefficiencies in the public sector that contribute massively towards Irelands sovereign debt.

See what I mean Jululan!!

Plus we have a lot of begrudgers who will critisise everything without offering solutions. They are also waiting until someone hands them a solution which they totally agree with on a plate (ie never) before they get off their arse.

BlaasForRafa

20Cent wrote: »

See what I mean Jululan!!

Plus we have a lot of begrudgers who will critisise everything without offering solutions. They are also waiting until someone hands them a solution which they totally agree with on a plate (ie never) before they get off their arse.

The unwillingness of most PS workers to see reality is one of the major things that has put this country in the state its in. They love to blame everyone and anyone but god help you if you address the fact that they lived high on the hog during the so-called boom years and that the public services, public sector pay and pensions need to be scaled back in line with the revenue the country is taking in now.

20Cent

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The unwillingness of most PS workers to see reality is one of the major things that has put this country in the state its in. They love to blame everyone and anyone but god help you if you address the fact that they lived high on the hog during the so-called boom years and that the public services, public sector pay and pensions need to be scaled back in line with the revenue the country is taking in now.

The point I was making was about why large protests haven't happened here. There was a big one against the "austerity measures" organised by the unions but nothing else of a large scale. This is because the public are split, anything to do with the economy ends up in a bun fight between Public and Private sector as demonstrated by your posts (and half the threads on boards.ie).

southsiderosie

I've been following this closely. The crux of the issue is that young people in Spain feel ill-served by both major parties, the socialist PSOE and the conservative PP. The youth unemployment rate is astronomical, and the under-30s in Spain have been dubbed "Generacion Ni-Ni", i.e. "Generation Neither-Nor" - in this case, neither school nor jobs. The protesters are now claiming this label "Ni-Ni", except in this case, it is "Neither the PSOE, nor the PP". Both parties are corrupt, and utterly bereft of new ideas on how to turn the country around.

I think manifestos like the ones that organizers (who it seems are following the people, not leading them) have distributed are meaningless in this kind of situation. The young people in this case have tapped into a simmering anger and have a lot of latent support. Instead of issuing boilerplate vaguely left-wing demands, what Spain really needs right now is some break-the-mold out of the box thinking on how to address some of the deep problems they face with their labor market and economy. But part of the problem in Spain is that young people, while active in "causes" like environmentalism or anti-globalization activism, are not active in electoral politics, so the system rarely takes them into account. And since they are more likely to be unemployed, or working on temporary contracts, the unions don't really represent their interests either.

It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out in the elections. And it will also be interesting to see if this kind of protest spreads outside of Spain - the level of economic and political exclusion of under-35s in much of Western Europe is really quite astounding.

Cannibal Ox

Young, educated, motivated, unemployed, politically disenfranchised, angry = recipe for interesting times. Good for them! I know the feeling, and I totally respect not only their capacity to organise on such a massive scale outside of party lines but to put down such a solid challenge on the table to Spanish politicians.

Jululan

Here is your chance to say something:

Protest: For a true democracy now!
Saturday 21st May · 14:00 - 17:00
Location
O'connell street (at the Spire), Dublin
More info
http://democraciarealya.es/

Manifesto in English

We are ordinary people. We are like you: people, who get up every morning to study, work or find a job, people who have family and friends. People, who work hard every day to provide a better future for those around us.
Some of us consider ourselves progressive, others conservative. Some of us are believers, some not. Some of us have clearly defined ideologies, others are apolitical, but we are all concerned and angry about the political, economic, and social outlook which we see around us: corruption among politicians, businessmen, bankers, leaving us helpless, without a voice.
This situation has become normal, a daily suffering, without hope. But if we join forces, we can change it. It’s time to change things, time to build a better society together. Therefore, we strongly argue that:

The priorities of any advanced society must be equality, progress, solidarity, freedom of culture, sustainability and development, welfare and people’s happiness.
These are inalienable truths that we should abide by in our society: the right to housing, employment, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development, and consumer rights for a healthy and happy life.
The current status of our government and economic system does not take care of these rights, and in many ways is an obstacle to human progress.
Democracy belongs to the people (demos = people, krátos = government) which means that government is made of every one of us. However, in Spain most of the political class does not even listen to us. Politicians should be bringing our voice to the institutions, facilitating the political participation of citizens through direct channels that provide the greatest benefit to the wider society, not to get rich and prosper at our expense, attending only to the dictatorship of major economic powers and holding them in power through a bipartidism headed by the immovable acronym PP & PSOE.
Lust for power and its accumulation in only a few; create inequality, tension and injustice, which leads to violence, which we reject. The obsolete and unnatural economic model fuels the social machinery in a growing spiral that consumes itself by enriching a few and sends into poverty the rest. Until the collapse.
The will and purpose of the current system is the accumulation of money, not regarding efficiency and the welfare of society. Wasting resources, destroying the planet, creating unemployment and unhappy consumers.
Citizens are the gears of a machine designed to enrich a minority which does not regard our needs. We are anonymous, but without us none of this would exist, because we move the world.
If as a society we learn to not trust our future to an abstract economy, which never returns benefits for the most, we can eliminate the abuse that we are all suffering.
We need an ethical revolution. Instead of placing money above human beings, we shall put it back to our service. We are people, not products. I am not a product of what I buy, why I buy and who I buy from.

For all of the above, I am outraged.
I think I can change it.
I think I can help.
I know that together we can.I think I can help.

I know that together we can.

southsiderosie

This is what jumped out at me:

Jululan wrote: »

These are inalienable truths that we should abide by in our society: the right to housing, employment, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development, and consumer rights for a healthy and happy life.
The current status of our government and economic system does not take care of these rights, and in many ways is an obstacle to human progress.
Democracy belongs to the people (demos = people, krátos = government) which means that government is made of every one of us. However, in Spain most of the political class does not even listen to us. Politicians should be bringing our voice to the institutions, facilitating the political participation of citizens through direct channels that provide the greatest benefit to the wider society, not to get rich and prosper at our expense, attending only to the dictatorship of major economic powers and holding them in power through a bipartidism headed by the immovable acronym PP & PSOE.

Yes, and the political class does not listen in part because young people are not involved in politics. It is all well and good to say that citizens should have an equal voice in a democracy, but when people don't exercise their voice, the system will not respond.

There seems to be a disconnect among young people in that they reject the system yet at the same time are angry that the system doesn't respond to their needs. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Jululan wrote: »

For all of the above, I am outraged.
I think I can change it.
I think I can help.
I know that together we can.I think I can help.

I know that together we can.

How is taking over the city center going to change things? While it makes for a good way to draw attention to a problem, it isn't really a solution either. Come Sunday, the PP are going to continue their stranglehold on Madrid politics, and will make huge gains across the country. Then what? Unless this can all be institutionalized into something that can actually bend politics in its direction, it is little more than a cathartic feel-good exercise.

Jululan

southsiderosie wrote: »

This is what jumped out at me:



Yes, and the political class does not listen in part because young people are not involved in politics. It is all well and good to say that citizens should have an equal voice in a democracy, but when people don't exercise their voice, the system will not respond.

There seems to be a disconnect among young people in that they reject the system yet at the same time are angry that the system doesn't respond to their needs. I don't think you can have it both ways.



How is taking over the city center going to change things? While it makes for a good way to draw attention to a problem, it isn't really a solution either. Come Sunday, the PP are going to continue their stranglehold on Madrid politics, and will make huge gains across the country. Then what? Unless this can all be institutionalized into something that can actually bend politics in its direction, it is little more than a cathartic feel-good exercise.

It is a first step. Will we change things at home following the carrot?

southsiderosie

Jululan wrote: »

It is a first step. Will we change things at home following the carrot?

The moment was ripe in 2010 for people to form a new political party/movement. Fintan O'Toole and others toyed with this and then backed out at the last minute. Given how easy it is for independents and new parties to pick up political support under the STV system (especially in comparison to close list systems like you see in much of continental Europe), this was a HUGE missed opportunity for a reform platform in Ireland to actually have a say in policymaking.

I don't see this as a first step because it is not clear where people are going, or what this is all about anyway. I said it back then, but if the student protests in Dublin had led to a massive peaceful sit-down and camp-out on Kildare street, I think that there would have been a lot of momentum and broad political support for it. But most of the youth leadership in the universities have close ties to political parties (i.e. they are not going to challenge the status quo), and there is an 'element' among Irish left-wing political activists who see every protest as an opportunity to engage in violent confrontation with the police, thus dampening any potential broader outside public support. The latter is generally not the case in Spain, despite the fact that they have a much stronger anarchist movement.

20Cent

southsiderosie wrote: »

The moment was ripe in 2010 for people to form a new political party/movement. Fintan O'Toole and others toyed with this and then backed out at the last minute. Given how easy it is for independents and new parties to pick up political support under the STV system (especially in comparison to close list systems like you see in much of continental Europe), this was a HUGE missed opportunity for a reform platform in Ireland to actually have a say in policymaking.

I don't see this as a first step because it is not clear where people are going, or what this is all about anyway. I said it back then, but if the student protests in Dublin had led to a massive peaceful sit-down and camp-out on Kildare street, I think that there would have been a lot of momentum and broad political support for it. But most of the youth leadership in the universities have close ties to political parties (i.e. they are not going to challenge the status quo), and there is an 'element' among Irish left-wing political activists who see every protest as an opportunity to engage in violent confrontation with the police, thus dampening any potential broader outside public support. The latter is generally not the case in Spain, despite the fact that they have a much stronger anarchist movement.

I think that is unfair there has been very little trouble at any of the protests recently. Considering the situation the country is in it is amazing how little there has been. Imagine the French putting up with what we have!

Regarding having missed the boat well its never too late to start. Do we want to be in 2014 saying we should have done something in 2011.

Overheal

with regard to scope, how does this at all differ from the Tea Party Movement? That was hardly a revolution. Not every gathering of commonfolk is going to result and government reform or revolution. And they too felt largely disenfranchised by the major parties.

20Cent

Overheal wrote: »

with regard to scope, how does this at all differ from the Tea Party Movement? That was hardly a revolution. Not every gathering of commonfolk is going to result and government reform or revolution. And they too felt largely disenfranchised by the major parties.

An Irish version of the Tea Party would be great.

Jululan

No interest, no debate, no thoughts...
Are you really happy with your politicians, with your system, with your society?

Jululan

Live from Madrid:

http://www.soltv.tv/soltv/index.html

southsiderosie

Jululan wrote: »

No interest, no debate, no thoughts...
Are you really happy with your politicians, with your system, with your society?

People are giving their thoughts. They just don't happen to agree with yours.

And you haven't really engaged with any of the counterpoints - what would be the actual objective of this kind of protest in Ireland, especially since the objectives - other than voicing disapproval of the government - are so fuzzy in Spain? Why should politicians respond to those who aren't actually involved in the electoral system? These are serious questions that too many people who advocate street protest don't seem to want to address.

If that were a protest of pensioners, you best believe that politicians would sit up and take notice - because they vote. Until young people are willing to reward/punish politicians at election time, they are always going to get the short end of the stick in a way that pensioners (and union members, who also vote in large numbers) won't.

Jululan

southsiderosie wrote: »

People are giving their thoughts. They just don't happen to agree with yours.

And you haven't really engaged with any of the counterpoints - what would be the actual objective of this kind of protest in Ireland, especially since the objectives - other than voicing disapproval of the government - are so fuzzy in Spain? Why should politicians respond to those who aren't actually involved in the electoral system? These are serious questions that too many people who advocate street protest don't seem to want to address.

If that were a protest of pensioners, you best believe that politicians would sit up and take notice - because they vote. Until young people are willing to reward/punish politicians at election time, they are always going to get the short end of the stick in a way that pensioners (and union members, who also vote in large numbers) won't.

Do you really believe that the people shouldn't be involved in the electoral system? That is a basic of democracy.
This protest started with young people, most of them over 18, with the right to vote. And it is followed and supported by families, pensioners and all sort of people.
Ireland has a very poor political culture but wait and see what happens.
Don't we want a better life for our sons?

Jululan

And I am not posting here to convince anybody or calling for a revolution in Ireland. Just, if you think things can be done in a better way for the majority say it and share it with respect. If you are happy, good for you.

southsiderosie

Jululan wrote: »

Do you really believe that the people shouldn't be involved in the electoral system? That is a basic of democracy.
This protest started with young people, most of them over 18, with the right to vote. And it is followed and supported by families, pensioners and all sort of people.
Ireland has a very poor political culture but wait and see what happens.
Don't we want a better life for our sons?

When did I say they shouldn't be involved in the electoral system? I'm saying they aren't - that's a big difference. Young people don't vote. So they can protest until the cows come home, but the specter of angry young people is far less scary for elected officials than angry pensioners or union members.

Jululan

southsiderosie wrote: »

When did I say they shouldn't be involved in the electoral system? I'm saying they aren't - that's a big difference. Young people don't vote. So they can protest until the cows come home, but the specter of angry young people is far less scary for elected officials than angry pensioners or union members.

This is not the point of the debate and you are wrong about it. Around 90% of the people protesting is over 18 and they vote.

Black Swan

20Cent wrote: »

An Irish version of the Tea Party would be great.

The Tea Party in the United States was not a movement, rather it was a faction of the American Republican Party; the same party that elected (2000) and reelected (2004) GW Bush president; the same party and president that started two wasteful and needless wars that cost billions per month (Iraq and Afghanistan); the same party and president that drove the federal deficit to historic highs; the same party and president that deregulated the SEC in 2004 under Bush appointee Chairman Cox, to where the investment banks took on ridiculous risks, with many failing in 2008, that greatly contributed to the Great Recession that everyone worldwide now suffers from.

How do we know that the Tea Party is not a movement, but rather a faction of the American Republican party? With the exception of one candidate, ALL Tea Party candidates that ran in the 2010 midterm elections were registered Republicans. And one of the major spokespersons of the Tea Party is none other than Sarah Palin, the Republican Vice Presidential candidate of 2008, which ABC's Charlie Gibson and CBS's Katie Couric showed during their interviews in 2008 to be totally incompetent to run for the 2nd highest office in America.

The last thing we need is an "Irish version of the Tea Party," led by an "Irish version" of Sarah Palin.

southsiderosie

Jululan wrote: »

This is not the point of the debate and you are wrong about it. Around 90% of the people protesting is over 18 and they vote.

Young people in Spain do participate in collective action. But they don't participate in electoral politics the way that their elders do - they are less likely to be members of a party or a union, and less likely to vote. This is a well-documented phenomenon in Spain.

Given that this is a movement about essentially rejecting the system, it is a perfectly logical response to ask why do you expect the system to work for you when you reject it?

Nobody thinks that youth unemployment is a good thing - it carries dire social and economic consequences. But that doesn't mean that taking over the central plaza or roads through a main city is the solution either. Frankly I found the real democracy manifesto to be just as predictable as anything the PSOE or PP would release.

When the left gets mad in Europe, they protest. When the right gets mad, they organize political parties, and shift the entire system in their direction. In other words, they make the system work for them. As someone who loathes Europe's xenophonic far-right parties, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the (anti) political left seems incapable of putting two and two together on this.

Jululan

southsiderosie wrote: »

Young people in Spain do participate in collective action. But they don't participate in electoral politics the way that their elders do - they are less likely to be members of a party or a union, and less likely to vote. This is a well-documented phenomenon in Spain.

Given that this is a movement about essentially rejecting the system, it is a perfectly logical response to ask why do you expect the system to work for you when you reject it?

Nobody thinks that youth unemployment is a good thing - it carries dire social and economic consequences. But that doesn't mean that taking over the central plaza or roads through a main city is the solution either. Frankly I found the real democracy manifesto to be just as predictable as anything the PSOE or PP would release.

When the left gets mad in Europe, they protest. When the right gets mad, they organize political parties, and shift the entire system in their direction. In other words, they make the system work for them. As someone who loathes Europe's xenophonic far-right parties, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the (anti) political left seems incapable of putting two and two together on this.

I am sorry but you are wrong again. This movement is not directed by the "left", I am not in the "left". We are Citizens.
Don't see ghosts where there are none.

southsiderosie

Jululan wrote: »

I am sorry but you are wrong again. This movement is not directed by the "left", I am not in the "left". We are Citizens.
Don't see ghosts where there are none.

You can call yourself whatever you want - right-wingers are citizens too, by the way - but your economic proposals in particular are clearly left-wing.

maccored

Fair dues to that Spanish movement. us Irish just dont have the balls. As can be seen in this thread, we seem to take what we're given and dont complain. Except on messageboards.

maccored

In other words, they make the system work for them

anyone in Ireland with those aspirations, should have done so a few years back. too late now - takes years to build any kind of political force.

southsiderosie

maccored wrote: »

anyone in Ireland with those aspirations, should have done so a few years back. too late now - takes years to build any kind of political force.

Not really - it takes organization, a clear vision, a sense of what people are concerned about, and an ability to articulate those concerns clearly - the last two are particularly important. Obama had three our of the four, and he rose from relative obscurity to the presidency in a very short period. Pim Fortuyn quickly spun his own power base out of his years of political activity and journalism - there was nothing stopping certain Irish elites from doing the same in the last two years.

20Cent

Black Swan wrote: »

The last thing we need is an "Irish version of the Tea Party," led by an "Irish version" of Sarah Palin.

I know by version I meant a mass movement of citizens. I'm pretty sure Enda isn't Kenyan and that an Irish version of Sarah Palin wouldn't get very far!

Jululan

southsiderosie wrote: »

You can call yourself whatever you want - right-wingers are citizens too, by the way - but your economic proposals in particular are clearly left-wing.

You are right there, right-wingers are citizens too. I voted for the Popular Party since I was 18.

Boulevardier

Why was this movement featured sympathetically on this morning's RTE Radio 1 Morning Ireland Business news segment? MI Business news acts as an employers' mouthpiece, yet they seem to like this movement. Odd.

Jululan

Have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ55PC-ElSE&feature=youtu.be

southsiderosie

Boulevardier wrote: »

Why was this movement featured sympathetically on this morning's RTE Radio 1 Morning Ireland Business news segment? MI Business news acts as an employers' mouthpiece, yet they seem to like this movement. Odd.

I think that is because there are a lot of mixed messages here. The takeaway in the NY Times this morning was that it is a protest against the main parties, and is essentially opposed to corruption in Spanish politics. But the statements from some of the groups affiliated with it seem to have much broader claims (like the manifesto posted here).

I wonder if the business channel was interpreting this as an anti-government protest, rather than an anti-politician protest.

seeing_ie

Bailout Protests Spread: People In Spain Are Chanting "We Want To Be Icelanders!"

Read more: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...#ixzz1MtQtNupT

Jululan

Getting bigger:

http://www.thetechnoant.info/campmap/

Jululan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13466977

hmmm

These sort of protests by Western populations are inevitable as we increasingly see a world where salaries are equalised amongst the middle classes. Inventions such as the Internet allow an Indian software engineer to be almost as competitive as a European software engineer, so there is no valid reason why the European should have double the salary of the Indian. The West has enjoyed a competitive advantage for the past 300 or so years, but as the West has gradually devalued education, responsibility and hard work, it is becoming increasing hard for the West to compete.

We're in for a rising tide of nationalism and protectionism in the West. It will only hasten the rise of of the competitive Asian nations, and we're not going to see much change until such time as people in the West accept lower relative living standards and change their attitude to become competitive again.

Boskowski

dan719 wrote: »

What advantage is gained by only paying avg. industrial wage? You surely want to encourage expertise in employment. The most qualified will earn much more elsewhere, and show no interest. Obv. there is a limit on how much they should be paid, but it's not what you propose..

I'm just picking up on this one right?

I ask you what actual expertise is there? Are we talking subject matter expert stuff? Because if we do where are they?

Politicians try to lay out policies that are in line with either their ideology but mostly with what their lobby groups paid them for. Cicil servants then try to implement some of this without ruining the place altogether Hardly any politician is an expert in their fielld let it be finance health economy whatnot. The only thing they are experts in is powergames, scheming, ducking and diving. And I'm not saying that in a spiteful manner. I'm not using the nicest words for their qualities, one could also call them 'tactical qualities' but that's essentially what you gotta be good at to rise through the ranks and manoeuvre yourself into a position of power.
But is that any good to us really, the people who pay for those services? Not so sure.

The political class lacks political culture everywhere and it's also self serving and they are in a unique position to decide on their own importance and their own paycheck. Not so good.