Reasons AGAINST ligths in the daytime.

cormie

I was talking to my friend saying that I'd always use my headlights during the day as I believe it's safer, makes me more visible etc and he told me that in Lithuania there was a petition against such practice. This is a page with the reasons listed: http://peticijos.lt/visos/1624

and this is the Google translate to English:

Lithuanian to English translation
NO - cars light of day, When visibility:

Riding with the lights on, experience has shown that:

1st Hard to pedestrians, cyclists, obstacles, special. service vehicles, motorcycles (as we know, they are running slowly), because light is lost at sea is more difficult to assess correctly the distance, especially in bending.

2nd Fuel consumption for cars increases of 2-3%, while traffic jams and standing at traffic lights - 10-15%. Increases air pollution - especially in urban areas, because a lot of time standing in traffic jams or at traffic lights (fuel consumption depends only on the time and not on speed or distance traveled);

3rd Maneuvers, is cleared corners, highways noticeable trend that stands out from the surrounding, fast-traveling turns off the lights, or activate a remote and fog;

4th There is no way to affix the car to be noted: towing, automotive columns, which would like to be unseparated (funerals, weddings, etc.).

5th Austrian parliament lifted the mandatory use of lights on the day as the failed and increased the number of casualties and victims.

6th Shorten the bulb, battery life, the permanent effects of deformation temperature and plastic light reflectors dazed - deterioration of the road lighting at night;

7th Many burnt bulbs replaced by cheap and poor quality, but the increased power - blinded by the fact other drivers, overheating wires, cracked insulation, there is a fire hazard.

8th European Federation of Associations of pedestrians (Federation of European Pedestrian Associations) decided against because it reduces the safety of pedestrians (even though it entered the guise particularly pedestrian safety), pollute the environment. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety_library/consultations/drl_20060727/drl_fepa.pdf

9th More tired eyes, while at the same time and the drivers themselves, reduced attention. Austrian ophthalmologists (eye doctors) firmly established that the light of day especially affects older people's eyesight. Puree for several years full-time lights (DRL) on traffic and established DRL degrades any darker objects, pedestrians, cyclists, the presence of obstacles - anytime - in any geographic location. Reflectors and retro-reflective clothing for the day can be "activated" DRL - so working
the road becomes less visible lights in the background ....

10th The front lamps are appropriate for use only in poor visibility (night, dawn, dusk, rain, fog). Only in exceptional (in low visibility conditions) suitable for a well-regulated daytime headlights (without significant
beam), the use of appropriate prominence in a situation likely to improve driving conditions.

Some points I can't fully understand the translation, but just thought I'd put it up here as I've seen mostly support of using lights during the day from this forum.

TheAnswer

The total cost of clearing up 1 fatal road accident is in excess of €1 million. Stats prove that headlights on during day reduce accidents (fatal or otherwise) by upwards of 30%. Modern DRL's are usually LED's which would barely register any drain on battery and therefore would have negligible affect on fuel consumption.

Joe10000

European federation of associations of pedestrians, if this does exist I'm joining tomorrow. What a load of arse.

jenizzle

I noticed that when I drove my MX5 without the lights on, nobody would see me because the car is lower than most. Had a few near misses from people not seeing me in overtaking lanes etc. With the lights on, that never happened. From my own personal experience, I'll always drive with them on.

thirtythirty

They forgot another critical point of:

- Makes people think it's evening / night time and start drinking at an inappropriate time, leading to an increase in pedestrians lying on the road and being hit

mickoneill30

cormie wrote: »

Some points I can't fully understand the translation, but just thought I'd put it up here as I've seen mostly support of using lights during the day from this forum.

The petition is kind of pointless unless we know who it's by. I can create a petition to build an Irish spaceshuttle. It doesn't mean the petition is factual or smart.

Some (most) of the points are a bit dodgy.

1 - What studies have been done to back this up.
2 - 2-3% increase in the use of power - if that stopped one person from being hit in traffic would it be worth it?
3 & 4 - What????
5 - The Austrian parliament voted against Xenon headlights. There's no sources to this petition so I'm not sure if that's what they're talking about.
6 - So what about the bulb life. It deteriorates the road lighting at night???? Why?
7 - There's an increased fire hazard because lights are used
8 - Dunno
9 - If you're tired you shouldn't be driving. I'm also of the opinion that if your eyesight isn't good enough you shouldn't really be driving.
10 - What's the study for this?

TestTransmission

Joe10000 wrote: »

European federation of associations of pedestrians, if this does exist I'm joining tomorrow. What a load of arse.

Full instructions here

Joe10000

This is from that website.

1. What we work for


Walking is the way to move most extended on the earth. Everybody walk every day as part of their normal activity. Walking helps the human being to keep healthier. It is needed to contact with others and we are making hundreds of walking movements each 24 hours.
This is the "who we are" from the website.

In the cities, for the most of pedestrians and in big portion of the urban journeys, going for a walk require an attention to make the path safe and healthier, and it is not easy to find a good and clear surface to walk on, so it is important to have an special protection when crossing the street.

ciotog

mickoneill30 wrote: »

The petition is kind of pointless unless we know who it's by. I can create a petition to build an Irish spaceshuttle. It doesn't mean the petition is factual or smart.

Some (most) of the points are a bit dodgy.

1 - What studies have been done to back this up.
2 - 2-3% increase in the use of power - if that stopped one person from being hit in traffic would it be worth it?
3 & 4 - What????

I think the point being made relates to the ability of a person to distinguish individual vehicles from multiple vehicles (light sources) i.e. the light sources apparently blend together. A lot of the points seem to be variations on the 'sea of lights' issue.

corktina

if you cant see a car in broad daylight, you shouldnt be on the road anyway.

Lets see the Gov tackle all the more pressing issues on the roads before introducing any legislation in this area.

mickoneill30

corktina wrote: »

if you cant see a car in broad daylight, you shouldnt be on the road anyway.

Absolutely, but I think the point is about doing everything you can to make a car visible. It's not just other drivers that need to see cars.

corktina wrote: »

Lets see the Gov tackle all the more pressing issues on the roads before introducing any legislation in this area.

I'm sure (or would hope) that a government might be able to handle more than one problem at a time. Admittedly Irish governments haven't exhibited this advanced skill in recent years.
But then nobody on this thread was talking about legislation. It's more about common sense.

Tallon

Load of BS, I always drive with them on...

Bikes too, they always drive with them on for when they are traveling between slow moving traffic for visability

Matt Simis

corktina wrote: »

if you cant see a car in broad daylight, you shouldnt be on the road anyway.

Lets see the Gov tackle all the more pressing issues on the roads before introducing any legislation in this area.

What are you talking about.. why would you possibly want that? One example; Lights work excellent on back roads, you go to overtake a tractor, there is a vehicle on the wavy bumpy, bendy road in the distance. Without DRLs its not immediately obvious which direction they are going. With DRLs it is. Thats just one example but I see it everyday (and 5watt parking lights do nothing people!)

Its that simple. I dont get the these piss poor "reasons" against just having lights on during the day.

Before I got the LED DRLs (in Halfords!) I drove with Dips on. Now I dont have to, saving power. These off the shelf LEDs even dim with parking lights on so as to not dazzle people in the dark. They automatically turn on with the engine with no fancy wiring needed (just power).

I always picture those saying things like "if you cannot see a car in broad daylight" must drive exclusively at midday in City centre streets. Back roads, overtaking and pulling out at junctions.. lights save lives.

shogunpower

i think it should be compulsury to have lights on all them time, how many times have you seen some idiot in a silver car on an over cast day in the late evening with no lights on? some people litreally dont turn on lights until they cant see in front of them.

neilboard

As far as I know one must use headlights during the day in scandinavian countries.
It`s safer to use them as on sunny days it can be difficult to see cars in the shade of trees etc.

galwaytt

TestTransmission wrote: »

Full instructions here

oh F - F - S :rolleyes:

galwaytt

Joe10000 wrote: »

This is from that website.

1. What we work for


Walking is the way to move most extended on the earth. Everybody walk every day as part of their normal activity. Walking helps the human being to keep healthier. It is needed to contact with others and we are making hundreds of walking movements each 24 hours.
This is the "who we are" from the website.

In the cities, for the most of pedestrians and in big portion of the urban journeys, going for a walk require an attention to make the path safe and healthier, and it is not easy to find a good and clear surface to walk on, so it is important to have an special protection when crossing the street.

omg, I nearly spat my tea over the keyboard !! Priceless, classic, even !

Tallon wrote: »

Load of BS, I always drive with them on...

Bikes too, they always drive with them on for when they are traveling between slow moving traffic for visability

You can't turn them off. Light switches were removed from bikes under EU legislation a while ago, so there's no choice in the issue. Which I agree with, btw.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Before I got the LED DRLs (in Halfords!)

An now, Matt, steady on: I thought you had taste - Halford's ?? :eek:

(joke, btw, love Halford's.......... )

shogunpower wrote: »

i think it should be compulsury to have lights on all them time, how many times have you seen some idiot in a silver car on an over cast day in the late evening with no lights on? some people litreally dont turn on lights until they cant see in front of them.

There's your problem, right there: ban silver. Ban grey. Ban 'charcoal/platinum/titanium/yada yada yada'.

There's a reason battleships are painted grey: to MAKE them invisible !

Bring back Safety Orange !

robbie99

Here's a good document analysing the pros and cons of making Daytime Running Lights compulsory in Ireland...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Consultations/Daytime%20Running%20Lights%20Consultation.pdf

All new models of cars cars in Europe from February 2011 will have dedicated DRLs built in to them so over the coming years these will filter down to the whole fleet. We see them already with the BMW angel eyes or the Audi fairy lights. One of the options discussed in the document is forcing drivers to use their dipped headlights during the day if their car doesn't already have dedicated dipped DRLs fitted to take advantage of the safety benefits of being more visible. The document also discusses the costs associated with this such as the increased fuel consumption and increased bulb burn-out rate. Also discussed are pedestrian and motorcyclist's concerns that they'd become less visible relative to car traffic than they currently are.

Viper_JB

robbie99 wrote: »

Also discussed are pedestrian and motorcyclist's concerns that they'd become less visible relative to car traffic than they currently are.

There's only one solution really, we're going to have to make it a legal requirement for every pedestrian to wear one of these...

leeroybrown

I'm in favour of all new cars having to have dedicated DRLs but against the use of ordinary headlights during daylight hours. DRLs are great so long as they're not sufficiently bright to distract you from other vulnerable road users and hazards. Headlights are just too distracting to have on during daylight hours.

Daegerty

If they make this mandatory they should remove about 2% off the cost of fuel to compensate

challengemaster

light is lost at sea? :pac:

Daegerty

challengemaster wrote: »

light is lost at sea? :pac:

While driving along the coast

Marlow

neilboard wrote: »

As far as I know one must use headlights during the day in scandinavian countries.
It`s safer to use them as on sunny days it can be difficult to see cars in the shade of trees etc.

Correct. And the fine for being caught without lights on is higher than the price for getting a relay fit, that will turn your lights on automatically when you start the engine

Honestly, driving with lights on is a serious good thing. Especially cars that are grey/silver and blend in with the tarmac or before mentioned case of the MX5, which is a low'ish car prove this.

In Germany only motorbikes are forced to drive with lights on during daytime, but even that makes a whole lot of sense.

Arguing against it makes none.

/M

Daegerty

Marlow wrote: »

Correct. And the fine for being caught without lights on is higher than the price for getting a relay fit, that will turn your lights on automatically when you start the engine

Honestly, driving with lights on is a serious good thing. Especially cars that are grey/silver and blend in with the tarmac or before mentioned case of the MX5, which is a low'ish car prove this.

In Germany only motorbikes are forced to drive with lights on during daytime, but even that makes a whole lot of sense.

Arguing against it makes none.

/M

Where do you buy such a relay? and is it still possible to manually turn the lights off while the engine is running if you wanted to for some reason?

Marlow

Daegerty wrote: »

Where do you buy such a relay? and is it still possible to manually turn the lights off while the engine is running if you wanted to for some reason?

It depends entirely on the car. My '93 VW Caravelle that I brought from Denmark to Ireland when I moved here, the lights could not be switched off (unless you switched off the engine that is).

In Volvo's there's from factory a little screw-driver switch, that lets you choose from constant lights on, american daytime-driving lights and normal light function.

In most modern BMW's (around 99 and on), the light module can be recoded. Normal function is, that it buzzes you, when you forget to switch the light off. I've recoded mine to switch the lights off (light switch in on position). This means, that I still can switch the lights off, but if I don't, the lights are switched on and off with the engine.

Essentially, it doesn't matter. Why would you ever switch your lights off, when the engine is running ? If you have the need, pull the fuse or add a switch.

/M

I Was VB

I'd love to see day time running lights being brought in as a mandatory. Even start fitting cars from new with this, because we have ****e weather in Ireland at the best of times overcast cloudy days and people have the attitude ''ah sure its not dark yet''.

Since i started driving at 18 it was bet into me to use them day or nite sunny or pissing rain. Honestly i'd like to think they're teaching learner drivers this habit.

Bumpstop

We had survived for many years without lighting up the day, then modern man impatient, couldn't be bothered to really look before pulling out.

He crashed.

The nanny state realising the impatient people were in the majority, and the carefull sane people, were in the minority, realised the the stupid impatient people must be protected.

They then invented Audi, and traffic lights.

Bmw was cast aside as it had no bejeweled baubles upon its face.

Front wheel drive, and chrome bezels became the must have, and pedestrians could feel the white light of drl man.

Get out of my way the crazy white frowning lights bellowed, as torque steer gradually drove him free of the pedestrians.

Angel eyes, other manufacturers shouted.

Or how about just driving carefully.

langdang

Count Curly Wee is on board wahey!

Marlow

I Was VB wrote: »

I'd love to see day time running lights being brought in as a mandatory. Even start fitting cars from new with this, because we have ****e weather in Ireland at the best of times overcast cloudy days and people have the attitude ''ah sure its not dark yet''.

This is my point. And it's fitted to most modern cars already, just needs to be turned on (reason being it's mandatory in Scandinavia and some US states).

/M

Mc Love

There is a fuse already in place in the ford focus for DRL's - would it be the same for many other cars?

Marlow

Mc Love wrote: »

There is a fuse already in place in the ford focus for DRL's - would it be the same for many other cars?

Yes. Most cars are prepped as it's a law requirement in some countries.

/M

KamiKazi

Don't want to see them being made mandatory, car drivers have a hard enough time seeing bikes when they're the only vehicles running DRLs, we'll be completely invisible if everyone has DRLs on.

Marlow

KamiKazi wrote: »

Don't want to see them being made mandatory, car drivers have a hard enough time seeing bikes when they're the only vehicles running DRLs, we'll be completely invisible if everyone has DRLs on.

I think you seriously should go on holidays in Scandinavia for a week or so and drive there. You don't want to be without it afterwards.

/M

Matt Simis

KamiKazi wrote: »

Don't want to see them being made mandatory, car drivers have a hard enough time seeing bikes when they're the only vehicles running DRLs, we'll be completely invisible if everyone has DRLs on.

If that were true then there would be no point in cars all having DRLs either, they would be just as invisible to each other. However stats (and TBH our daily driving experience) do not support this theory at all.

KamiKazi

Matt Simis wrote: »

If that were true then there would be no point in cars all having DRLs either, they would be just as invisible to each other. However stats (and TBH our daily driving experience) do not support this theory at all.

Em, no.

The point of DRLs are to make your vehicle stand out more. This is fine on a country road with low traffic numbers.

In traffic where everyone has DRLs on the backgroud just becomes a sea of DRLs, negating any benefit bikes used to have by being the only vehicles on the road with DRLs.

Marlow

KamiKazi wrote: »

Em, no.

The point of DRLs are to make your vehicle stand out more. This is fine on a country road with low traffic numbers.

In traffic where everyone has DRLs on the backgroud just becomes a sea of DRLs, negating any benefit bikes used to have by being the only vehicles on the road with DRLs.

That's actually competely wrong. The point of DRLs is that you see vehicles from a further distance. Any vehicle. If there's vehicles behind it with DRL or not, doesn't matter.

And being able to tell the difference between a bike, car and truck is not necessarily a good thing. Some people tend to do stupid things, when they realize it's a bike. You'd also have to ban twin-lights on bikes, if you want to stand them out.

/M

Gregor Samsa

KamiKazi wrote: »

Don't want to see them being made mandatory, car drivers have a hard enough time seeing bikes when they're the only vehicles running DRLs, we'll be completely invisible if everyone has DRLs on.

"completely invisible"? That's a bit of an exaggeration now isn't it? Unless DRL's are also cloaking devices. (patent pending)

DRLs/day time headlights make moving traffic (cars and bikes) stand out from the static background - thus easier to spot, thus safer for all. The advantage to them is that our eyes are attuned to movement, and we can see a moving light better than something that optically blends into the static background of roads/streets/etc.

The cars and bikes with lights on aren't competing with each other to be seen by the eye, they're competing together to be seen against the background.

Lights on are a win for all, and the stats prove it (despite the unverified fear mongering from certain quarters).

Mitch Connor

My lights switch off when the key comes out of the ignition, so since I got my car in 08 I have never actually turned them off myself. When my car is on, so are my lights.

From driving myself, I find cars with lights on attact my attention more so than cars without - not that I don't see the ones without, just the ones with them on are more pronounced.

keithclancy

KamiKazi wrote: »

Em, no.

The point of DRLs are to make your vehicle stand out more. This is fine on a country road with low traffic numbers.

In traffic where everyone has DRLs on the backgroud just becomes a sea of DRLs, negating any benefit bikes used to have by being the only vehicles on the road with DRLs.

The EU disagree with you:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety_library/publications/DRL_Final_Report_Oct_2004.pdf

Capt'n Midnight

RAF anti submarine aircraft used bright lights to hide themselves.


Cyclists also disappear when DLR is common


The fact is that if all cars have lights then only the brightest would get noticed. One option it to educe sound proofing in cars and set limits on radio volume inside them so drivers get to HEAR other road users. hearing is our main 360 degree sense. eyes only work where you focus them , yes they will pickup movement off axis but by definition when you drive everything will appear to be moving

Matt Simis

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

RAF anti submarine aircraft used bright lights to hide themselves.

The only time Ive seen this was on Car forums (when someone is really trying to make an anti-DRL case), so I dug into it a little and found no real references to it. I found it was experimented and this is the best (only) description I found:

During World War II, allied torpedo bomber aircraft were assigned the task of hunting and sinking German submarines on the surface of the open ocean. The bombers were largely unsuccessful because submarine lookouts could see the bombers from a distance, silhouetted against a bright sky, allowing the submarines ample time to dive to safety. An allied invention using one element contained in the present invention was used to greatly increase the number of German submarines that were sunk by torpedo bombers. A row of simple incandescent lights was placed on the leading edge of the wing of the torpedo bombers to fill in the forward-facing silhouette of the torpedo bomber with light. After this invention was implemented, German submarine captains reported that they could hear the engines of the torpedo bomber before they could see it.

So, even if true, its infact a scenario the opposite of what Kamikazi and you describe, "dazzle patterns" were only effective (allegedly at that) at extreme range on singular objects to "wash out" said distant silhouette. To even get close to making it work (again at distance only) you would need to cover an entire front of a car in lights (and no, multiple cars together to not merge into one big light, they are lights on large dark boxes with massive amounts of space around/between them).
Not at all useful in a dense city scape with lots of light sources. So this is a misleading but oft-quoted anti-DRL factoid.
Anti-Submarine Planes generally were painted white.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Cyclists also disappear when DLR is common
The fact is that if all cars have lights then only the brightest would get noticed. One option it to educe sound proofing in cars and set limits on radio volume inside them so drivers get to HEAR other road users. hearing is our main 360 degree sense. eyes only work where you focus them , yes they will pickup movement off axis but by definition when you drive everything will appear to be moving

You got a source for that other fact of yours?
Also the human eye can actively pick up movement even when we are moving, our brain can differentiate between a stationary and moving object as it takes into account our movement. I dont think we would get far as a species if we thought trees and rocks moved around just cos we did..

EthicRanger

cormie wrote: »

...
Some points I can't fully understand the translation, but just thought I'd put it up here as I've seen mostly support of using lights during the day from this forum.

which one is not clear?
i'll tell you no.3 for me is not worth to mention even in Lithuanian language. so forget it.

any other you want to understand?

cormie

Well 3 and 4 I don't fully understand the translation of Aciu

Dempsey

Matt Simis wrote: »

What are you talking about.. why would you possibly want that? One example; Lights work excellent on back roads, you go to overtake a tractor, there is a vehicle on the wavy bumpy, bendy road in the distance. Without DRLs its not immediately obvious which direction they are going. With DRLs it is. Thats just one example but I see it everyday (and 5watt parking lights do nothing people!)

Its that simple. I dont get the these piss poor "reasons" against just having lights on during the day.

Before I got the LED DRLs (in Halfords!) I drove with Dips on. Now I dont have to, saving power. These off the shelf LEDs even dim with parking lights on so as to not dazzle people in the dark. They automatically turn on with the engine with no fancy wiring needed (just power).

I always picture those saying things like "if you cannot see a car in broad daylight" must drive exclusively at midday in City centre streets. Back roads, overtaking and pulling out at junctions.. lights save lives.

What DRL's did you get and what did you do to make them not look tacky, if ya dont mind me asking.

I do use parks/dims in poor visibility and I get annoyed at motorists that dont. They obviously can see cars better but dont be arsed to flick a switch to do likewise.

ardmacha

Most vehicles do not benefit from lights most of the time. But as is often the case with regulations the only way to make people put lights on when they should is to require it all of the time.

EthicRanger

cormie wrote: »

Well 3 and 4 I don't fully understand the translation of Aciu

3rd ( i said it's useless, but maybe not) : They say there is tendency, that overtaking cars now need of swithing off lights or swithcing long lights (or fog lights) in order to draw attention of those to be undertaken.


and 4th says, there were no way left to mark special transport or colones of cars like weddings, etc... after daylights laws were introduced.

challengemaster

EthicRanger wrote: »

and 4th says, there were no way left to mark special transport or colones of cars like weddings, etc... after daylights laws were introduced.

That's funny, what about the massive pile of ribbons usually attached to wedding car convoys?

cormie

EthicRanger wrote: »

3rd ( i said it's useless, but maybe not) : They say there is tendency, that overtaking cars now need of swithing off lights or swithcing long lights (or fog lights) in order to draw attention of those to be undertaken.


and 4th says, there were no way left to mark special transport or colones of cars like weddings, etc... after daylights laws were introduced.

Aciu so reason 4 isn't that important either. Reason 3 sounds like a point FOR using lights, not against

Sheeps

the problem with the car that i drive (06 civic) is that if i turn my lights on during the day, the digital display for the spedo and odometer is quite difficult to see because it dims when you turn the lights on and more so when it's very bright outside because of the shine.

Marlow

Sheeps wrote: »

the problem with the car that i drive (06 civic) is that if i turn my lights on during the day, the digital display for the spedo and odometer is quite difficult to see because it dims when you turn the lights on and more so when it's very bright outside because of the shine.

But that's a design-flaw of YOUR car, not a reason against DRLs.

/M