Coaches Unite!!!!

ecoli

Just having a look through the Junior's and Youth's who have qualified for for international champs this year (great to see so many achieving the standards) and the most striking thing i have found is the diversity of coaches etc within the list

Here are just a few facts

Disciplines
3| Walkers
3| Hurdlers
6| Middle Distance (800-1500)
2| Long Distance (3000m-10000m)
3| Sprinters (up to 400m)
2| Throwers
1| Jumper

Area
12|Munster
5|Leinster
1|Connaught
3| Ulster


Aside from the usually argument (why Munster seems to produce as much or more of the top talent compared to pop difference in Dublin etc) the one point that stood out to me is of the 20 qualifiers the highest number of athletes which any coach trains is only 2. Surely we should be pooling the top talent in order to try and help these athletes push each other as well as trying to increase the standard of coaching.

Another interesting note is the fact that despite are recent decline in Middle distance on an international level we actually have more than 25% of our qualifiers in this discipline

RoyMcC

The coaching question is a difficult one, and not confined to Ireland. Every coach think they're the bees knees and it's rare to find one who acknowledges the fact that an athlete has outgrown him/her and allows the athlete to move on. Most coaches do the job for little or no reward and it's great if you can develop a jewel once in a while.

Similarly the athlete will usually feel they owe a debt of loyalty to the coach that has developed them. They are reluctant to move on. Maybe they don't even recognise that they should.

Inevitably the talent is too thinly spread and no amount of development squads will fix that.

It's only in very recent years that, in the UK, the best athletes are starting to be centralised via contracts and the grants system. Thirty Foot (Tingle) of this parish has eloquently illustrated the utopia of super clubs and feeder clubs which would concentrate all Irish talent at the top. Can't see it happening though because of the vested interests of the clubs, and the coaches of those clubs.

ocnoc

RoyMcC wrote: »

It's only in very recent years that, in the UK, the best athletes are starting to be centralised via contracts and the grants system. Thirty Foot (Tingle) of this parish has eloquently illustrated the utopia of super clubs and feeder clubs which would concentrate all Irish talent at the top. Can't see it happening though because of the vested interests of the clubs, and the coaches of those clubs.

So you've one club where only the top athletes go?
That might be great for the International runners, but would it not cripple the club system or interclub competitions?

Would good club runners not gravitate towards this super club in the hope to get better, which in turn would slowly drain any talent out of the clubs?

(if that makes sense)

RoyMcC

ocnoc wrote: »

So you've one club where only the top athletes go?
That might be great for the International runners, but would it not cripple the club system or interclub competitions?

Would good club runners not gravitate towards this super club in the hope to get better, which in turn would slowly drain any talent out of the clubs?

(if that makes sense)

Not necessarily one club but - for arguments sake eight super clubs; maybe four in Dublin, two in Cork, one in Waterford, one in the west. Yes, the talented athletes and coaches would be encouraged to aspire to join these clubs who would have the resources and facilities that others do not.

Then you'll get (1) the top athletes with the top coaches and (2) great inter-club rivalry and competition.

Ways and means would have to be found to encourage the feeder clubs to abandon their own parochial best interests and to buy into the belief that the national interest is more important. They would still have the important role of developing youngsters and keeping alive club rivalry at the junior level.

Can't see it happening anytime soon mind. Too many little empires that won't be given up in a hurry.

Zuppy

How does Munster have half the athletes? Population of runners are greater? Or easier access to coaches? Or better development?

Just curious as to why?

RoyMcC

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

How does Munster have half the athletes? Population of runners are greater? Or easier access to coaches? Or better development?

Just curious as to why?

Me too ZL. Any answers (or even theories) out there?

RayCun

Is it just this crop of athletes, which could be pure randomness, or is it a persistent thing?
Is a particularly club over-represented?
A particular discipline?

ecoli

Took me a while but i found the thread i was thinking about from last year which sparked some good debate regarding the Area distribution of athletes

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055986283

Zuppy

ecoli wrote: »

Took me a while but i found the thread i was thinking about from last year which sparked some good debate regarding the Area distribution of athletes

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055986283

I missed this last year. Made interesting reading. I have no idea or even a theory why Dublin is so weak. I would have expected it to be a lot stronger. Especially with the density of facilities and the population being concentrated in such a small area compared to Munster (or the West). Maybe it has a lot to do with the development officers (AI) and how well they are tied into their local structure.

ChickenTikka

I'm not sure if the right answer is to centralise all the athletes with elite potential. Many of the youth and junior athletes are in their exam years. Training needs to be reasonably convenient for them so training with a local club makes sense. Plus it brings on others in their club if they are involved in same sessions some of the time. Plus they've made the qualification standard with the help of their current coach so the coach might not be that bad after all.

I agree at senior level, some form of centralisation would be good but without requiring an athlete to transfer clubs.

Regarding why Dublin is underperforming ... look at the membership numbers in the Junior (U20) category on AAI's last update - 40 members in all of Dublin with a population of 1.2 million.

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/april_2011_membership_figures_distribution1.pdf

Thats the root cause if you ask me. So the real question is why are so few 19 year olds involved in the sport in Dublin. Is it because there aren't enough clubs conveniently located for the size of the population? While I can't find stats for number of clubs in each county, I remember seeing something somewhere that indicated Cork alone had almost 40 clubs. THat's nearly more than in Connacht in total. To me that's the key - plenty of clubs leads to plenty of participation and as a result talent is discovered.

thirtyfoot

ecoli wrote: »

most striking thing i have found is the diversity of coaches etc within the list

Not really a surprise for two reasons.

1. Most are still at school and with their club coaches. They haven't moved away, gone to college etc where they might join up with more recognised coaching setups. Although some of the more recognised coaching setups are here in the form of Waterford and Letterkenny.
2. There is no defined policy (even at senior level) to encourage athletes to train together with successfull groups or coaches.

plodder

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Thats the root cause if you ask me. So the real question is why are so few 19 year olds involved in the sport in Dublin. Is it because there aren't enough clubs conveniently located for the size of the population? While I can't find stats for number of clubs in each county, I remember seeing something somewhere that indicated Cork alone had almost 40 clubs. THat's nearly more than in Connacht in total. To me that's the key - plenty of clubs leads to plenty of participation and as a result talent is discovered.

True. Most of Dublin's recent population growth has been in the North and Western fringes of the city, which seem to be pretty much athletics (club) free zones as far as I can see. The traditional North and west side clubs are too far away imo.

gerard65

Huge amount of soccer clubs in Dublin with girls/womens soccer booming as well. Add in the GAA and Rugby, leaves slim pickings for Athletics which is far less glamorous.

ecoli

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Regarding why Dublin is underperforming ... look at the membership numbers in the Junior (U20) category on AAI's last update - 40 members in all of Dublin with a population of 1.2 million.

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/april_2011_membership_figures_distribution1.pdf

Thats the root cause if you ask me. So the real question is why are so few 19 year olds involved in the sport in Dublin. Is it because there aren't enough clubs conveniently located for the size of the population? While I can't find stats for number of clubs in each county, I remember seeing something somewhere that indicated Cork alone had almost 40 clubs. THat's nearly more than in Connacht in total. To me that's the key - plenty of clubs leads to plenty of participation and as a result talent is discovered.

I dunno if amount of clubs are the issue. As you say Cork may have more than 40 clubs(just going off your figures) yet still only 16 juniors. Also compare this to Dublin per pop and the figures are relatively the same (3 times the population and 2.5 times the number of juniors).

Possibly one solution is to incentivize it at a college level. Not saying that scholarships are the route (thats a different discussion for a different day about the levels of some colleges) but perhaps designate a module of credits to extra cirricular sport (such as athletics).
For the part of the college it could boost overall standards. If students are commited to training to get extra credits it means less of the usual irish culture of students on the lash 2-3 times a week having a knock on affect in general on their studies.
Economically training would cut costs on the likes of student health services due to less of a demand because of increase in general health levels as well as stress relief etc which creates a great demand on the counselling services of a college. These saves alone could even create savings which could be redirected on facilities / coaching setup.
Saw similar template come up recently proposed in the us

Prefontaine Plan

RoyMcC

Good thinking ecoli - that link is also thought provoking and takes physical exercise outside the normal sporting parameters.

Trouble is these simple ideas just don't catch on. People think there must be a catch because highly-paid experts haven't proposed them. Like the totally logical plan to concentrate athletics expertise where it can feed off itself and thrive. People will just shrug their shoulders, ignore it and continue as before.

downthemiddle

One of our top juniors Katie Kirk has declared for British athletics, a major loss.
Apparently she has been attending coaching sessions in England and decided to change allegiance.

Tangle2

downthemiddle wrote: »

One of our top juniors Katie Kirk has declared for British athletics, a major loss.
Apparently she has been attending coaching sessions in England and decided to change allegiance.

A big loss for sure as Katie is a fantastic athlete. However if we are realistic she was probably always going to declare for the UK. She has regularly participated in AAA championships while she didn't take part in any of the AAI juvenile/junior competitions over the past few seasons. Her participation here was limited to schools. Perhaps this was an indication of things to come. Best of luck to her though! Also, her Dad Mark is a gentleman and does great work coaching.

Its the nature of NI athletes that some you win, some you lose. Thankfully Ciara Mageean has chosen to run for Ireland. However like Katie going to GB, Ciara was probably always going to chose Ireland.

Lets be positive though, its been a great weekend for Irish Juniors. Congrats to Shane Quinn and Liam Markham on achieving the standards for the European Juniors!

ChickenTikka

Updated info on AAI web site re number of clubs and membership:

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/month-end-registrations-per-club-31052011.pdf

ecoli

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Updated info on AAI web site re number of clubs and membership:

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/month-end-registrations-per-club-31052011.pdf

Skerries 108 juveniles? Come along way in the past five years. Glad to see they havent died off. There were two when I was an age grouper and of that both left (I think Ciara Durkin is no longer with them anyway)

RoyMcC

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Updated info on AAI web site re number of clubs and membership:

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/month-end-registrations-per-club-31052011.pdf

That's a mad amount of clubs. What would be even more interesting is to know the split between (a) track & field and (b) road because there is little overlap.

Come to think of it you can get a rough split if you make the assumption that (a) most juveniles are track and (b) a majority of seniors/masters will be road. So near enough 2:1?

downthemiddle

ecoli wrote: »

Skerries 108 juveniles? Come along way in the past five years. Glad to see they havent died off. There were two when I was an age grouper and of that both left (I think Ciara Durkin is no longer with them anyway)

Great work going on in Skerries. They are particularly strong at the very young age groups and hopefully they will be able to develop some of these.