Super 15 = Rugby League Lite / no contest at the breakdown/tackle

Son of Stupido

Having watched a couple of games for the first time in a long long while, I was struck by the lack of contest at the breakdown in Super 15 games.

Often the tackler is the only one who tries to win the ball and (IMO) does so without releasing the tackled player (Southern hemisphere interpretation?). The defenders arrive at the breakdown but don't attack the ball, just fan out waiting for the next attack.

Contrast this with leinster of munster (or Glasgow for that matter) where nearly every ball is contested by several defenders.

Overall S15 is very reminesent of rugby league, and explains the high scores in a lot of the games.

Another observation is that once the line of defence is broken, a try nearly always results.

Entertaining stuff but there is no real contest. Is this what some people want rugby to become?

It is simply different.

The laws at the breakdown are interpreted very differently, who's to say which is right and which is wrong? S15 is setup to reward attacking teams, and punish defences. Marginal calls always go with the attacking side, and defenders are penalised for rucking offences far more often than an attacking side.

It's just a different version of the game we play up here really, the international interpretations at the WC will be interesting to see how the dynamics of the games are affected.

hardCopy

Deleted User wrote: »

It is simply different.

The laws at the breakdown are interpreted very differently, who's to say which is right and which is wrong? S15 is setup to reward attacking teams, and punish defences. Marginal calls always go with the attacking side, and defenders are penalised for rucking offences far more often than an attacking side.

It's just a different version of the game we play up here really, the international interpretations at the WC will be interesting to see how the dynamics of the games are affected.

We could really do with a common panel of referees between H-Cup and Super 15. It doesn't make any sense to have different games played at opposite ends of the world with a lottery for refs at the end of every season.

Elite Refs should be given guidance on how to interpret rules from the IRB and should not be given further instruction by the competition organisers.

sock puppet

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Overall S15 is very reminesent of rugby league, and explains the high scores in a lot of the games.

Utter bollocks. The number of tries per game in the Super 15 is barely more than it is in the Heineken Cup.

ktulu123

In fairness this year there are alot more turn overs than previous years. Watch The Highlanders, they are seriously good at contesting rucks and getting turn over ball! Also too many people complain about the defence's saying that its not as good as northern. Watch the recent Stormers v Crusaders match, unbelievable defence at the end!

rockman15

Disagree with the OP

When you watch regularly you will see there is at least the same break down ferocity in the SXV.
While less numbers may compete its only because the ball is moved away from the break down at a faster rate. So (a) less bodies are required with faster ball and (b) they heavies arent quick enough to to get there. In fact Id be happy to wager that the 2nd phase ball of a break down is slower than the first due to more bodies competing at it. I will watch this over the comign weekend and report back. At the least it will show what we can expect in terms of defensive cover at the WC.

handsomecake

richie mccaw,david pocock, george smith,phil waugh,schalk burger,heinrich brussow...........................couldnt contest a breakdown between them

jolley123

My view of the S15 this year is that the attacking team gets a lot of the 50/50 calls going their way. In terms of defense, I would argue that a lot of the defense can be quite poor. For instance, the Gio Aplon try was just ridiculously poor defense. Obviously there was skill involved in terms of the angle he cut and his stepping, but Muliaina and Donald did little to stop him.

I think both Elsom and Fuimaono-Sapolu's made it clear what the differences are. Elsom said it was a lot harder to score tries in the NH, and Sapolu had a twitter fit yesterday about how Sarries beat Gloucester by playing boring rugby. http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_6937572,00.html
S15 teams just play explosive quick sevens style rugby, with the sole aim of crossing the white wash. Whereas NH teams look to the set-pieces and kicking game to strangle a victory out of their opponents.

Also, like it or not, the weather plays a huge factor in the quality difference.

amacachi

jolley123 wrote: »

My view of the S15 this year is that the attacking team gets a lot of the 50/50 calls going their way. In terms of defense, I would argue that a lot of the defense can be quite poor. For instance, the Gio Aplon try was just ridiculously poor defense. Obviously there was skill involved in terms of the angle he cut and his stepping, but Muliaina and Donald did little to stop him.

Completely agree with that. There are times a novice could be forgiven for wondering if tackling is allowed. When the hits come they can be hard but so often the defending team is getting back slowly and moving with their back to the ball or side-on and are off-balance when trying to make a tackle or simply can't get there. I've only caught maybe 10 matches this season but in at least 6 the defences were completely laughable.

JustinDee

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Overall S15 is very reminesent of rugby league, and explains the high scores in a lot of the games

Aside from the lineouts, marks, contested scrums, lack of 10m line at each phase, lack of 40/20, lack of sets of six, lack of the PTB, and the two extra players you mean?
Do you even watch rugby league or have you ever played it? I don't get what you're claiming with an apparent similarity between the codes being an explanation for high-scores. The nearest rugby union team you'll ever find to rugby league since you bring up the code, was the 2003 England side. Wales under Gatland and France under the last two coaches they've had, for example, make it a priority to commit bugger all to the rucks, instead going for a packed line instead.

There is a certain style that is played in Australia and NZ particularly. From age grade upwards. A good team can mix it up and adapt as they do. Thats why all but one RWC was won by a Tri-Nations side. Not all sides in the Southern Hemisphere are the same either. Its far too generalistic to lump them as one when the variations between each team's strengths can be huge.

Saying a try is down to poor defence rather than deft attacking is more often than not, a subjective view. You can say that about almost every try scored.

hsbc

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Having watched a couple of games for the first time in a long long while, I was struck by the lack of contest at the breakdown in Super 15 games.

Often the tackler is the only one who tries to win the ball and (IMO) does so without releasing the tackled player (Southern hemisphere interpretation?). The defenders arrive at the breakdown but don't attack the ball, just fan out waiting for the next attack.

Contrast this with leinster of munster (or Glasgow for that matter) where nearly every ball is contested by several defenders.

Overall S15 is very reminesent of rugby league, and explains the high scores in a lot of the games.

Another observation is that once the line of defence is broken, a try nearly always results.

Entertaining stuff but there is no real contest. Is this what some people want rugby to become?

Personally i think this sounds pretty good! Although i am a union player who prefers to watch league...

http://www.theage.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/hybrid-test-match-lights-up-brookie-20110511-1ej11.html

profitius

It looks like not everyone are happy with the rugby in the S15.

Watson questions Super 15 wisdom

Controversial former Stormers skipper Luke Watson has become the latest high-profile player to question the new Super 15 structure.

Watson, speaking on his return to South Africa from English side Bath, was forthright in his opinion that the conference structure favours Australia. He joins Eastern Province on Monday.

Earlier this week, Stormers coach Allister Coetzee and skipper Schalk Burger lamented the fact that South African and New Zealand derbies are more physical than matches involving Australian teams, and there are more injuries.

The current format makes each team play eight derby matches while the structure doesn't allow for every team to play against all the others at least once.

"Most people will agree that the structure is ridiculous," Watson said. "Some teams don't get the opportunity to play against the weaker sides and therefore lose out on five or 10 log points.

"South Africa have the most physical teams, while Australia's teams could easily pick up points against the Melbourne Rebels and Western Force. I think they should re-visit the structure of Super rugby. There is maybe too much rugby and it's played at pace with high impact.

"You can see in the attendance figures that too much rugby is being played. It has also lost prestige because you play teams [from your country] more than once and there is no longer that feeling of 'I'm going to get you' [between local sides]."

After losing to the Chiefs last week, Stormers captain Burger said: "The local derbies in South African matches are really hectic from a physical perspective and when you win the first one, the return match is like a revenge game.

"South African players seem to have 'fast bowler' syndrome and as a result this competition isn't getting any easier."

Earlier this season, Sharks hooker Bismarck du Plessis also questioned the format of the competition.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/rugby/article1074664.ece/Watson-questions-Super-15-wisdom

Highlanders coach Jamie Joseph says Australian teams play schoolboy rugby compared to Kiwi derbies.

Highlanders coach Jamie Joseph says that Australian teams were playing schoolboy rugby under the new Super Rugby format, compared to the gruelling season faced by New Zealand clubs.

While backing the concept of more local derbies under the competition's new system, Joseph said matches between Australian teams lacked the intensity of all-New Zealand clashes.

"We played four New Zealand teams in a row, that's a big ask because they are very physical," he told Wellington's Dominion Post.

"You watch the Waratahs play the Reds and it's different rugby ... it's like school stuff while we are at war."

His comments echo concerns from former Wallabies coach Eddie Jones about the revamped Super Rugby, which this year introduced country-based "conferences" in South Africa, New Zealand and Australia with five teams each.

With the top team from each conference guaranteed a spot in the play-offs, Jones said it made the competition uneven because South Africa and New Zealand had more player depth than Australia, making their conferences tougher.

Jones, who coached the Brumbies to a competition win in 2001, said the inclusion of the Melbourne Rebels this year had further diluted the pool of player talent in Australia.

"It was justified in terms of getting Australia an even share of the television money and that's the only reason," he told Radio Sport.

"There's no way anyone in their right sense can say Australia can have five top-class sides."

The revamped Super Rugby draw was designed to increase the number of local derbies, boosting interest in the competition.

Each team plays all four other sides in its country twice and four of the other five teams in each of the other conferences.

Jones said this meant a team could potentially make it to the final and win the competition without playing its top rivals during the season.

"It's an uneven competition because everyone doesn't play everyone," he said.

Despite concerns the bruising encounters in the New Zealand conference risked increasing the injury rate among players, Highlanders mentor Joseph supported more local derbies.

"I think it's great, mate. It's quite tribal, the Kiwi boys against the Kiwis ... certainly the guys are enjoying the derby matches," he said.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/super-rugby/highlanders-coach-jamie-joseph-says-australian-teams-play-schoolboy-rugby-compared-to-kiwi-derbies/story-e6frf4qu-1226058545129

JustinDee

Diddums. In case they didn't realise, franchise rugby in the Super 15s has been in doo-doo for the past 4-5 years and needed a jolt. Decreasing attendances especially at group stages, sponsorship problems and reduced TV revenue. Leaving it like that would have been death knell especially in Australia and NZ.

sock puppet

The Stormers have lost at home to foreign opposition, twice, yet still sit in third place because they haven't lost a derby. And they're complaining about how tough it is

jolley123

3 byes and SBW and Masaga injured. F sake.