Researching Parish Records in the National Library

P. Breathnach

My research is getting past the scope of Ireland's civil registers. The next step is parish records, and one place to peruse them is the National Library. This post is mainly to let you know what the experience is like.

As preparation, I wrote down what I knew about certain individuals, and what questions I now wanted to tackle. That set of questions led to making a list of church records I wanted to see. In some cases, they were events for which I already had seen the civil record, and my hope was that the church record would contain some additional information; in other cases, I was hoping to locate a church record for an event for which no civil record existed. My target list had 20 items on it, including some events of which I had some good knowledge, and some which amounted to a trawl.

The National Library gives us an online index of what church records it has on microfilm, and checking that index knocked out some of the items on my wishlist -- there is no point looking for what is not there. I also made note of the index numbers of the microfilms I wanted. At this point I should mention that the library offers a genealogy advisory service, which is free and for which no appointment is necessary. It struck me that if I could not make an appointment, there might be a delay in getting service, so I decided to be in a position to operate as much as I could without seeking assistance.

Equipped with my list of questions, microfilm reference numbers, and notebook and pens, I betook myself to the National Library on Kildare Street. Through the main door, and the Genealogy Research Room is clearly signposted, up a short flight of stairs. When I started up the stairs, the desk porter called me back and instructed me to deposit my bag in a locker -- so don't go there with bulky files that you want to use on site. In the research room, I felt some vindication: the advisor there had just been collared by three American visitors who seemed set to engage him for some time. On looking around, what I needed seemed straightforward enough: the microfilms are stored in cabinets, clearly marked with index numbers, and are on open access, and all I needed to do was open the appropriate drawer and take out the box containing the film I wanted. The microfilm readers are in a nearby room. If you have not used one before, and need advice on how they work, I am sure that you can enlist the help of somebody who is using one (remember, though, that it is a library and some people do not like to be interrupted, so try to judge who seems approachable).

And then away you go.

I found copies of varying quality, which is only to be expected with records that are over 100 years old. Handwriting style also varied greatly, with some scripts being quite difficult to read (I was lucky, in that all the records in which I was interested, with one marginal exception, were quite legible). The layout of records in the latter part of the nineteenth century was somewhat standardised; earlier records seem less so, and generally contain less information. As I worked, I managed to answer some of my questions, failed to answer some others, and discovered that yet others were redundant (why look for a birth record for somebody in Parish A when you unexpectedly learn that she actually came from Parish Z?).

So how productive was my visit? First, I found it tremenduously interesting and enjoyable. Judged functionally, it was also highly productive. It would be awkward, and redundant, to describe for you all that I learned in my four-hour visit. As a crude indicator, I can tell you that I have managed to discover the names of four great-great-grandparents that I had not already known (count one as a half-point, because I had counted it as a possible, but am now sure of it). And I have generated some more questions, which will be the basis of a further visit.

shanew

One other step that can be useful is to prepare a list of Christian names in Latin, as they are sometimes used in registers. I also bring a map of the parishes, and a few more detailed townland maps of prime areas of interest

p.s. I dont think you are supposed to bring pens into the National Library - I was told pencils only!


Shane

P. Breathnach

shanew wrote: »

One other step that can be useful is to prepare a list of Christian names in Latin, as they are sometimes used in registers.

A long time ago, Latin used to intimidate me: I'm of that generation who studied it at school. But it does mean that I am not troubled greatly by Latinised names. I am sometimes irritated by the poor Latin of nineteenth century priests.

I also bring a map of the parishes, and a few more detailed townland maps of prime areas of interest

Good idea. If you don't have one, you can look one up in the genealogy room, or you can buy one in the Library shop (30c per county).

p.s. I dont think you are supposed to bring pens into the National Library - I was told pencils only!

I'd expect that if I were using books or original documents. They seem fairly relaxed about the microfilm reading room.

shanew

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Good idea. If you don't have one, you can look one up in the genealogy room, or you can buy one in the Library shop (30c per county).

or screengrab the RC parish maps from the Irish Times and townlands from the OSI website


Shane

shanew

P. Breathnach wrote: »

A long time ago, Latin used to intimidate me: I'm of that generation who studied it at school. But it does mean that I am not troubled greatly by Latinised names. I am sometimes irritated by the poor Latin of nineteenth century priests.
..

I forgotten about that... I'm convinced some of the priests didn't actually have good Latin... some of the 'Latin' names I've seen in registers looked a bit 'makey-uppy' to me (I'm far too young to have learnt Latin in School - so I'm going by lists from books and the web)



Shane

pinkypinky

Great post.

It's news to me that the parish microfilms are now self-service.
I've always had to get them from the desk upstairs, and was there as recently as a month ago. When did this come in?

shanew

The self-service option for RC films is part of the recent alterations, which added scheduled delivery at preset time of orders for most items, and also allows for some pre-booking of items for the main reading and manuscript rooms by email. This was to allow the NLI staff more time to catalogue, index and scan items.

There are plans to have also the Tithe records self service at some stage soon..

I've some details here : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,530901.msg


Shane

Dun

The self-service was in place when I was there at the end of March past. Just find your film in the locker, and replace it in the drawer with one of the usual microfilm request slips with the film number, your name and microfilm reader number, along with an "in use" box from the top of the filing cabinet. Much handier than previously. I don't know how long it's in place because it's been several years since I was in there prior to that time.

bartleby101

Very informative post - this is my next stop as I've exhausted almost everything online and in the GRO. Cheers.

shanew

might be useful if you need to work out which RC parish to check for your a ancestors - Irish Times RC Parishes : http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/index.htm (free)

click on the counties on the map, and then the individual parishes - you can see details of the dates available for each parish, microfilm references etc. to see a list of townlands in each RC parish click on the link below the details - this show the various townlands included - divided into civil parishes.


Shane

bartleby101

Cheers Shane. I've used the Irish Genealogy records before to great effect - I see this is a government sponsored initiative so I guess any plans to expand the collection are in the hands of the IMF/ECB:(
Great to see the NLI opens on Saturday morning - will definitely be checking this out. Are there photocopy facilities as in the BMD/GRO or do you just transcribe from microfilm?
Bart.

shanew

bartleby101 wrote: »

Cheers Shane. I've used the Irish Genealogy records before to great effect - I see this is a government sponsored initiative so I guess any plans to expand the collection are in the hands of the IMF/ECB:(
Great to see the NLI opens on Saturday morning - will definitely be checking this out. Are there photocopy facilities as in the BMD/GRO or do you just transcribe from microfilm?
Bart.

Until recently you had to transcribe RC details - but now there are a few printers available. There is a charge for this, I think it uses the same card system as that used for the newspapers.



Shane

AD61

Does anybody know if a reader's ticket is required to view parish records?

Dun

No, you can just go to the genealogy service and access them there, no reader ticket required.

shanew

not unless they've changed the rules recently

All you need is a newspaper pass - you just pick them up at reception. No sign up or anything required

woops - crossed posted, with Dun, sorry


Shane

rhapsody

Just wanted to reiterate what P.Breathnach has said- I was in the NLI yesterday looking up parish registers. Sadly the place was full of tourists & some sort of children's tour group, but I persevered! The lockers are really handy, I'm not sure what the situation was before but I thought they were great- very like the set up in the National Archives.
Being able to access the microfilms (again, like the Nat. Archives) is great, saves time etc. In my hour & a half quick trip I found 3 more siblings of my great grandmothers which no-one know existed. They're earlier than all the rest. Sadly I couldn't read the name of one of them at all (dam priests & their beautiful handwriting!), another looks like Patricium & another looks like "Gulielonaine".
As shanew mentioned, a good knowledge of Latin would help, I wonder could anyone suggest a good Latin- English name site? Googling hasn't found me anything useful; though that second name is apparently like the Latin version of William. The Latin for Patricia & Patrick seems to be the same, so I'm not sure if the person above is male or female.

hblock21

I'd be pretty confident its Patrick and William

shanew

some of the sites I use for names are :

http://comp.uark.edu/~mreynold/recint7.htm
http://www.from-ireland.net/irish-names/Latin-Names-In-English
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/howto/latinnames.htm

re the Patrick/Patricia question...I think possibly the Latin endings may be different for male and female...


Shane

P. Breathnach

hblock21 wrote: »

I'd be pretty confident its Patrick and William

Agreed.

The correct Latin form of Patrick is Patricius (or, to be more exact, Patrick is an anglicisation of Patricius). It is obvious that some priests did not have much command of Latin, and so we get Latinisations like putting -um at the end of names. Another example would be Petrum for Peter, when Petrus is the correct form.

The female false Latin typically uses -am, so you might find Mariam (instead of Maria) for Mary.

The problem can be more acute in Irish-speaking areas. Priests might translate a name into English, and thence to Latin!

pinkypinky

Actually, the reason you get different endings on the same name is to do with case endings. The column heading might be "son/daughter of" which would put the name in the genitive case, which would again be different depending on whether the name was male or female.

www.irishgenealogy.ie has a small section of latin to english names.

We could a thread with ones we know and come across?

P. Breathnach

pinkypinky wrote: »

Actually, the reason you get different endings on the same name is to do with case endings. The column heading might be "son/daughter of" which would put the name in the genitive case, which would again be different depending on whether the name was male or female....

... and to which declension the name belonged. But (daughter) "of Maria" would never be Mariam; it would be Mariae.

I wasn't very good at Latin in my schooldays: it was my least-liked subject. But I think many nineteenth century priests were worse.

pinkypinky

I'm good at languages but never studied Latin formally - I bow to your superior knowledge!

P. Breathnach

pinkypinky wrote: »

I'm good at languages but never studied Latin formally - I bow to your superior knowledge!

There is a long-dead teacher of Latin who would have been astonished at the idea that I might have a knowledge of Latin superior even to that of somebody who never studied it. He (with justification) believed that I never studied it.

rhapsody

Thanks everyone for those replies, I'll go with Patrick & William so. There's Patrick born to the family 11 years later (1871) so perhaps this Patrick (1860) died young. Has anyone found that happening in a family? i.e. they "re-use" a name.

Thanks Pinkypink for starting the other thread, that'll be really useful!

Dun

I've seen that happen absolutely loads of times in my own family in the 1800s, very common custom back then.

rhapsody

Hi Dun,

Thanks for your quick reply! The practice sounds a bit morbid

Dun

Maybe now it does, but it was normal back then. Just like earlier it was normal not to use names of saints for children, because they were considered holy, like the name of Jesus (Spanish-speaking people don't mind calling children Jesús though). Naming traditions change down the years, just look at the Kylie Shakiras and so on nowadays :rolleyes:

When you think about it, it's honouring the first child by naming another after it, much like naming after grandparents. My brother was named after my grandfather who was already deceased, but nobody would bat an eyelid.

pedroeibar1

I'm not so sure about priests not knowing Latin - after all, it was their job to say Mass in Latin every day, and the altarboys had to respond in Latin (introibo ad altare Dei, ad deum qui laetificat, juventutem meam.) Also, Latin was widely taught until the1960's.

I have several ancestral families where a dead child's name was used for a later sibling.
For what it’s worth, the traditional naming pattern is :
1st son -- father's father
2nd son -- mother's father
3rd son -- father
4th son -- father's eldest brother
1st daughter -- mother's mother
2nd daughter -- father's mother
3rd daughter -- mother
4th daughter -- mother's eldest sister


Rs
P.