Return to the old ways?

wolfsbane

Does this signal a desire to tighten-up the RCC ship? Will limbo be re-instated? The Latin Mass made compulsory? Etc.?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8512721/Catholics-told-to-abstain-from-eating-meat-on-Fridays..html

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1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

antiskeptic

wolfsbane wrote: »

Does this signal a desire to tighten-up the RCC ship?

What.. you mean in the sense of plugging all the leaks? Barque-ing up the wrong tree if you ask me.





Diktats like these brings back to mind that period post-the hour I first believed, when I realised what freedom in Christ meant. How it meant freedom from useless religious observances like this.

The contrast couldn't be more stark. Let them roll out all the more I say

Donatello

wolfsbane wrote: »

Does this signal a desire to tighten-up the RCC ship? Will limbo be re-instated? The Latin Mass made compulsory? Etc.?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8512721/Catholics-told-to-abstain-from-eating-meat-on-Fridays..html

****************************************************************************
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Nobody has to do anything. The Catholic faith is not imposed on anyone. But yes, there is a move to restore Catholic identity.

Nobody will be forced to not eat meat, the EF Latin Mass will not be imposed, and limbo remains a theological speculation. You can sleep easy tonight.

It is interesting to note that Friday abstinence was never done away with. Canon Law allowed Catholics to substitute something else in the place of not eating meat. But most Catholics ended up by doing no penance on a Friday. The English bishops are now doing their duty, nothing more. They merely remind the faithful to do Friday penance - if not avoiding meat, then something else. See here.

The story you linked to is mellodramatic. It should also be borne in mind that many Catholics, myself included, regard fish and chips as a Friday treat, so, you might ask, where is the penance in that?

hinault

I've always observed the "only fish to be eaten on friday" rule.

wolfsbane

Donatello wrote: »

Nobody has to do anything. The Catholic faith is not imposed on anyone. But yes, there is a move to restore Catholic identity.

Nobody will be forced to not eat meat, the EF Latin Mass will not be imposed, and limbo remains a theological speculation. You can sleep easy tonight.

It is interesting to note that Friday abstinence was never done away with. Canon Law allowed Catholics to substitute something else in the place of not eating meat. But most Catholics ended up by doing no penance on a Friday. The English bishops are now doing their duty, nothing more. They merely remind the faithful to do Friday penance - if not avoiding meat, then something else. See here.

The story you linked to is mellodramatic. It should also be borne in mind that many Catholics, myself included, regard fish and chips as a Friday treat, so, you might ask, where is the penance in that?

Thanks for the clarification. Catholics can continue to eat meat on a Friday, without sinning.

But even the link you gave is a bit misleading, 'The Bishops have decided to re-establish the practice that this should be fulfilled by abstaining from meat'. [underlining mine].

Anyway, it seems Catholics are - and always have been - under obligation to 'do penance' on Fridays. It is a sin not to do so. That's something I did not know about, nor have any of my Catholic friends ever mentioned it.

*****************************************************************************
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Donatello

wolfsbane wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification. Catholics can continue to eat meat on a Friday, without sinning.

But even the link you gave is a bit misleading, 'The Bishops have decided to re-establish the practice that this should be fulfilled by abstaining from meat'. [underlining mine].

Anyway, it seems Catholics are - and always have been - under obligation to 'do penance' on Fridays. It is a sin not to do so. That's something I did not know about, nor have any of my Catholic friends ever mentioned it.

*****************************************************************************
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.

Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.

Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.

anymore

Donatello wrote: »

Nobody has to do anything. The Catholic faith is not imposed on anyone. But yes, there is a move to restore Catholic identity.

Nobody will be forced to not eat meat, the EF Latin Mass will not be imposed, and limbo remains a theological speculation. You can sleep easy tonight.

It is interesting to note that Friday abstinence was never done away with. Canon Law allowed Catholics to substitute something else in the place of not eating meat. But most Catholics ended up by doing no penance on a Friday. The English bishops are now doing their duty, nothing more. They merely remind the faithful to do Friday penance - if not avoiding meat, then something else. See here.

The story you linked to is mellodramatic. It should also be borne in mind that many Catholics, myself included, regard fish and chips as a Friday treat, so, you might ask, where is the penance in that?

Limbo no longer exists and never did - if Pope Benedict has done one thing right, it is starting the process of getting rid of this deceit.

Donatello

anymore wrote: »

Limbo no longer exists and never did - if Pope Benedict has done one thing right, it is starting the process of getting rid of this deceit.

Limbo was, and remains, theological speculation. The Pope didn't get rid of anything. Well, he did get rid of that bishop in Australia.

Quo Vadis

anymore wrote: »

Limbo no longer exists and never did - if Pope Benedict has done one thing right, it is starting the process of getting rid of this deceit.

Limbo has never been a Catholic Doctrine.
As the previous poster said, Limbo is in the realm of theological speculation and continues to be.

anymore

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Limbo has never been a Catholic Doctrine.
As the previous poster said, Limbo is in the realm of theological speculation and continues to be.

The existence of limbo was taught in irish CATHOLIC primary schools AS A MATTER OF FACT !

Donatello

anymore wrote: »

The existence of limbo was taught in irish CATHOLIC primary schools AS A MATTER OF FACT !

I'm not sure - I wasn't there. But, you know, Irish Catholics have got some other important things very wrong - from mis-applying Vatican II to sex abuse - so I guess teaching incorrect things about limbo might be just another. Limbo was never anything more than theological speculation, so it should have been presented as such.

Quo Vadis

anymore wrote: »

The existence of limbo was taught in irish CATHOLIC primary schools AS A MATTER OF FACT !

Not in the school I went to, but I do agree, the proper teaching of Catholicism has often been severely lacking in many Catholic schools and parishes. One of the many failings of the Irish Bishops and part of the reason why we are where we are.

anymore

Donatello wrote: »

I'm not sure - I wasn't there. But, you know, Irish Catholics have got some other important things very wrong - from mis-applying Vatican II to sex abuse - so I guess teaching incorrect things about limbo might be just another. Limbo was never anything more than theological speculation, so it should have been presented as such.

I am sorry i cant accpt that, this was taught by irish catholic priests and nuns and brothers. There is absolutely no question of it being A MISTAKE.
I have personal reason for being angry over this and i will not accept from the catholic Church the same attempts to tell us that we the ordianry people got it wrong. It was taught as absolute fact in the same way as the cruxifiction was taught as fact.

Festus

anymore wrote: »

The existence of limbo was taught in irish CATHOLIC primary schools AS A MATTER OF FACT !

Much that is in error was and probably still is taught in Irish Primary schools, Catholic or otherwise. I remember being taught that the English were all going to Hell because they were Protestant bastards AS A MATTER OF FACT !

In secondary school we learned that Protestants had fewer children not because they have no bar on artificial contraception but because they have a very English attitude to sex. An educational point backed up by Monty Python's "Meaning of life".

In third level I discovered that vast tracts of what was taught as science at secondary level was pure nonesense. Particularily what passed for atomic or quantum theory and evolutionary theory.

If there is one thing I have learned about the Irish educational system it is that when one progresses from one stage to another, primary to secondary to tertiary to post-grad to post-doc, is that whatever is learned at one stage must be unlearned and learned anew at the next.

I also know a good many primary teachers who seem to think they have the right to impose their heretical views on their charges. I suppose it's their way of thinking they can change the world.

When it comes to the education of our children the parents have the prime responsiblility. So says the constitution anyway. So if you have a problem with Limbo being taught in primary school and the parents never challenge it the problem may be with the parents.

P: "Whadya learn in school today?"

C: "Aborted kids go to Limbo."

P: "Lucky bastards."

C: "Even if their parents were married?"

P: "Still lucky. Don't get this world of pain and don't go to Hell. Bastards!"

anymore

Festus wrote: »

Much that is in error was and probably still is taught in Irish Primary schools, Catholic or otherwise. I remember being taught that the English were all going to Hell because they were Protestant bastards AS A MATTER OF FACT !

In secondary school we learned that Protestants had fewer children not because they have no bar on artificial contraception but because they have a very English attitude to sex. An educational point backed up by Monty Python's "Meaning of life".

In third level I discovered that vast tracts of what was taught as science at secondary level was pure nonesense. Particularily what passed for atomic or quantum theory and evolutionary theory.

If there is one thing I have learned about the Irish educational system it is that when one progresses from one stage to another, primary to secondary to tertiary to post-grad to post-doc, is that whatever is learned at one stage must be unlearned and learned anew at the next.

I also know a good many primary teachers who seem to think they have the right to impose their heretical views on their charges. I suppose it's their way of thinking they can change the world.

When it comes to the education of our children the parents have the prime responsiblility. So says the constitution anyway. So if you have a problem with Limbo being taught in primary school and the parents never challenge it the problem may be with the parents.

P: "Whadya learn in school today?"

C: "Aborted kids go to Limbo."

P: "Lucky bastards."

C: "Even if their parents were married?"

P: "Still lucky. Don't get this world of pain and don't go to Hell. Bastards!"

How could my parents have challnged it when they were taught as fact ? If kids of generation had challenged it or anyother Sacred Truth, they would have been flyed alive ! Dont forget this was still the era when the catholic church ran its gulag system of slave labour camps, run for profit, and priests could abuse with impunity !

Festus

anymore wrote: »

How could my parents have challnged it when they were taught as fact ? If kids of generation had challenged it or anyother Sacred Truth, they would have been flyed alive ! Dont forget this was still the era when the catholic church ran its gulag system of slave labour camps, run for profit, and priests could abuse with impunity !

Methinks we have found an agenda

anymore

Festus wrote: »

Methinks we have found an agenda

Ah, its the old " He has an agenda " strategy !

Festus

anymore wrote: »

Ah, its the old " He has an agenda " strategy !

Ah, the rebuttal is the old " Avoiding the point " strategy

Keylem

This article from the Catholic News Service may help.

A bit from the article:

In the 1985 book-length interview, "The Ratzinger Report," the future Pope Benedict said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally -- and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as prefect of the congregation -- I would abandon it, since it was only a theological hypothesis.

"It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism," he said.

anymore

Keylem wrote: »

This article from the Catholic News Service may help.

A bit from the article:

In the 1985 book-length interview, "The Ratzinger Report," the future Pope Benedict said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally -- and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as prefect of the congregation -- I would abandon it, since it was only a theological hypothesis.

"It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism," he said.

And again i repeat it was taught as an absolute truth when i was in school. Can I remind you of the repeated attempts by the vatican to deny the extent of Clerical sex abuse ? And do you know who prefect for the congregation of the faith ?

anymore

Keylem wrote: »

This article from the Catholic News Service may help.

A bit from the article:

In the 1985 book-length interview, "The Ratzinger Report," the future Pope Benedict said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally -- and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as prefect of the congregation -- I would abandon it, since it was only a theological hypothesis.

"It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism," he said.

Also, isnt the doctrine of the Holy Trinity only a theological invention ?

Festus

anymore wrote: »

And again i repeat it was taught as an absolute truth when i was in school. Can I remind you of the repeated attempts by the vatican to deny the extent of Clerical sex abuse ? And do you know who prefect for the congregation of the faith ?

Denial of clerical sex abuse is not illegal in the same way that Holocaust denial is. I think it is fair to say that there are many who have claimed to have been abused sexually by clerics for monetary reasons. In fact I can say that as a matter of fact as I know of someone who claimed based on what they learned from another who died before they could claim and made the pretence of being the abused despite the fact they themselves were never abused.
That said I would not deny that clerical sex abuse occured but that the extent of it has been exaggerated by those with an anti-catholic agenda. If anything the extent of clerical sex abuse is probably far less than parental sex abuse, teacher sex abuse, social worker sex abuse, psychiatric sex abuse, police sex abuse, pimp sex abuse or any other form of sex abuse that involves an abuse of a position or power and or authority.

Festus

anymore wrote: »

Also, isnt the doctrine of the Holy Trinity only a theological invention ?

If one is computer literate enought to access boards.ie one is literate enought to read this thread

anymore

Festus wrote: »

Denial of clerical sex abuse is not illegal in the same way that Holocaust denial is. I think it is fair to say that there are many who have claimed to have been abused sexually by clerics for monetary reasons. In fact I can say that as a matter of fact as I know of someone who claimed based on what they learned from another who died before they could claim and made the pretence of being the abused despite the fact they themselves were never abused.
That said I would not deny that clerical sex abuse occured but that the extent of it has been exaggerated by those with an anti-catholic agenda. If anything the extent of clerical sex abuse is probably far less than parental sex abuse, teacher sex abuse, social worker sex abuse, psychiatric sex abuse, police sex abuse, pimp sex abuse or any other form of sex abuse that involves an abuse of a position or power and or authority.

Who on earth is talking about sex abuse denial being illegal ? I am talking about it being a policy ! As regards your claim of false claims, have you gone to the Gardai about it ?

Keylem

Okay if you want to go down that road.....

There is abuse in ALL church settings. Not excusing Priests, but there were plenty of abuse to go around in the Protestant Churches.

A snippet of the above link!

The mainstream media has all but ignored the recent Associated Press report that the three major insurance companies for Protestant Churches in America say they typically receive 260 reports each year of minors being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, staff, or other church-related relationships.
In light of the sex abuse scandal that rocked the Catholic Church beginning five years ago, religious and victims’ rights organizations have been seeking this type of data for years. It has been hard to come by since Protestant Churches are more de-centralized than the Catholic Church.

More....



Penn State historian Philip Jenkins argued in his 1996 book, "Pedophiles and Priests," that both secular and Catholic media exaggerate the extent of Catholic cases involving minors, while downplaying Protestant abuse.

anymore

Festus wrote: »

If one is computer literate enought to access boards.ie one is literate enought to read this thread

Based on that thread, I am downgrading it to theological speculation !

Festus

anymore wrote: »

Based on that thread, I am downgrading it to theological speculation !

Whatever. Discussion on the Holy Trinity is open there, no need to derail this one.

anymore

Keylem wrote: »

Okay if you want to go down that road.....

There is abuse in ALL church settings. Not excusing Priests, but there were plenty of abuse to go around in the Protestant Churches.

A snippet of the above link!

The mainstream media has all but ignored the recent Associated Press report that the three major insurance companies for Protestant Churches in America say they typically receive 260 reports each year of minors being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, staff, or other church-related relationships.
In light of the sex abuse scandal that rocked the Catholic Church beginning five years ago, religious and victims’ rights organizations have been seeking this type of data for years. It has been hard to come by since Protestant Churches are more de-centralized than the Catholic Church.

More....

Penn State historian Philip Jenkins argued in his 1996 book, "Pedophiles and Priests," that both secular and Catholic media exaggerate the extent of Catholic cases involving minors, while downplaying Protestant abuse.

That might explain the relative silence of the irish protestant churches on clerical sex abuse.

Festus

anymore wrote: »

Who on earth is talking about sex abuse denial being illegal ? I am talking about it being a policy !

The Church has acknolwledged its failings. If you wish to argue it is policy present evidence.

anymore wrote: »

As regards your claim of false claims, have you gone to the Gardai about it ?

As evidence it is regarded as unsubstantiated speculation and not admissable. Current irish legal advice.

Donatello

anymore wrote: »

How could my parents have challnged it when they were taught as fact ? If kids of generation had challenged it or anyother Sacred Truth, they would have been flyed alive ! Dont forget this was still the era when the catholic church ran its gulag system of slave labour camps, run for profit, and priests could abuse with impunity !

People had access to books, did they not? The Roman and the Penny Catechism were widely available.

Festus

anymore wrote: »

That might explain the relative silence of the irish protestant churches on clerical sex abuse.

Perhaps the issue is really Irish sex abuse and the fact that clericals, Catholic, Protestant or non-demoninational, may be involved, is incidental.

Festus

Donatello wrote: »

People had access to books, did they not? The Roman and the Penny Catechism were widely available.

One must bear in mind that not everyones parents were literate

For those born to literate parents perhaps they just didn't have the cahounas to challenge errant teachers.

[edit = by they I mean the parents, not those born them.]

Donatello

Festus wrote: »

One must bear in mind that not everyones parents were literate

For those born to literate parents perhaps they just didn't have the cahounas to challenge errant teachers.

Let them look it up on t'internet.

anymore

Donatello wrote: »

People had access to books, did they not? The Roman and the Penny Catechism were widely available.

I assume you are too young to understand this era of repression and sadism.