Help me choose a car - Golf TSI? RX-8?

Lumen

I've been taking a sabbatical from car obsession for the last few years, and have lost track of what's out there. So I need help.

I'm looking for a second car to replace my Suzuki Swift 1.3 5dr, faultless but sadly stolen/recovered and due to be collected for scrap on Monday.

Criteria are:

- €6-15k. Would need to be a bit special to spend much more than €10k.
- Reasonable space/comfort for two adults and two small kids (kids legs tend to stick out and car seats are big, so legroom must be adequate).
- 5 doors, probably. Maybe I could do without the rear two.
- Nice to drive (control weights, gearchange quality, steering feel).
- Not dog slow.
- Not stupid motor tax.
- Reliable.
- Ability to fit roof rack for bikes.

This will be a second car with low mileage, so I don't care much about fuel consumption. Our main car is a Honda FRV, which I'm planning to replace with a big estate (e.g. Skoda Superb) when funds allow.

Currently I'm thinking a Golf mk5 TSI. This should have decent poke from a small engine (1.4). Motor tax will be reasonable 'cos it's based on engine size.

I've looked on carzone but can't see any 170s, only 140s. Were 170s available in Ireland? What's the difference - pulley and chip or something more substantial?

Example.

I'm not too bothered about the extra 30bhp, but I guess I could import from the UK if necessary.

I guess for maximum bang for minimum capacity I might consider an RX-8, although it's not so practical. The ads I've seen say 1.8 or 1.9L engine. Is capacity for tax purposes calculated differently for rotaries?

Any other ideas?

Nonoperational

The RX8 is taxed as a 1.8. Lovely car but seriously thirsty on petrol and I wouldn't buy one without getting a compression test done first.

There are a few 170bhp TSIs around. They had a few issues when they came out first and it is a lot of power to get from a 1.4. I'd do a bit of research first. I was going to get one but ended up getting a GTi instead. Similar cost to purchase and a much bigger selection.

Alanstrainor

Tbh, i think a Golf GTI is what you're after. The rx-8 is a lovely car for sure, but I really don't think it fits your criteria!

n97 mini

2008 Civic 2.2 CTDi? Drove one last weekend. Quick car. €156 road tax too. Should be reliable.

Lumen

Interesting. Prices don't seem outrageous for the GTIs, no more than the TSI.

A GTI (1984cc?) is another €250 a year to tax and presumably a fair bit more insurance.

What's insurance like on these? I'm 36 with a couple of claims in the last 2 years (careless prang whilst driving another car, and this recent theft).

Lumen

n97 mini wrote: »

2008 Civic 2.2 CTDi? Drove one last weekend. Quick car. €156 road tax too. Should be reliable.

I have that engine in the FRV. It's pokey alright, must be good in the smaller Civic. Do you know whether the Civic has the dual-mass flywheel? A recent clutch change on the FRV was €1500 as the flywheel needed replacement. :eek:

TestTransmission

Lumen wrote: »

Interesting. Prices don't seem outrageous for the GTIs, no more than the TSI.

A GTI (1984cc?) is another €250 a year to tax and presumably a fair bit more insurance.

What's insurance like on these? I'm 36 with a couple of claims in the last 2 years (careless prang whilst driving another car, and this recent theft).

A mate has a 2006 one,he's 28 I think and it's only costing him 600 a year,I think thats with 3/4 years NCD

Tatar

I very nearly bought an rx-8 last year (included a brand new engine). Looking back now I'm glad I didn't. It drinks oil and petrol... any tax saving you make you'll loose on oil changes alone.

Got a golf gti instead, its a bit boring compared to the rx but much more forgiving on your wallet and practical. I do 500km a week and so far the reliability has been perfect. It was great in the snow too!

Leonard Hofstadter

Life is too short to be driving something sensible and boring, so why wouldn't the OP get the Mazda?

The OP says he won't be doing a lot of driving, therefore the running costs of the Mazda are not important.

The Mk5 Golf is far from the most reliable car in existance, and the 1.4 TSI gives fierce trouble in higher output guises (the ones with both the turbo and supercharger).

Addmittedly a Golf GTi is a very good car, and there are no reliability problems with these, but I still think if I was doing low mileage I'd still choose the Mazda.

Nevertheless, I would want to make sure the rotary engine is working perfectly, and things like taking them to a car wash are out, because the engine will flood if you start it, run it for a few seconds, turn it off and repeat. Those engines are a bit tempermental, but they sound savage when they are worked hard:D!

Fizman

TestTransmission wrote: »

A mate has a 2006 one,he's 28 I think and it's only costing him 600 a year,I think thats with 3/4 years NCD

Unfortunately it's costing a little more than that.

€880 a year with 4 years NCB, but I only started driving that length of time ago so OP could easily be cheaper. Plus I only have full licence 2.5 years as well.

Nonoperational

€900 a year for me on a GTi. 25 years old, 7 years NCB, fully comp with step back NCB protection and windscreen cover.

TestTransmission

Fizman wrote: »

Unfortunately it's costing a little more than that.

€880 a year with 4 years NCB, but I only started driving that length of time ago so OP could easily be cheaper. Plus I only have full licence 2.5 years as well.

You lied! :cool:

Lumen

Ah right, so a 1.4 TSI is a Golf GT, and that has one of these twinchargers (super+turbo). Reading a few links confirms the opinions posted above that there are issues with these engines.

I think the RX8 is out as I was only considering it if taxed as a 1.3. I read some amusing stories a few years ago about having to check oil levels every time you fill up.

GTI or post-2008 Civic, hmmm. Apparently the Civic does have the dual-mass flywheel, which is slightly offputting given recent experiences. Don't fancy running two of those!

Nonoperational

The GTI has one too!

Leonard Hofstadter

Dual Mass Flywheels usually only give trouble in diesel engines.

Petrol engines by their very nature are much smoother running than diesels, so they don't put the stress on a flywheel that a diesel engine does (the DMF after all is designed to make the engine feel much smoother for the driver).

BMW have been using DMFs in their petrols for donkey's years now and there have never been any problems with the flywheels in them.

Nonoperational

That's true but if you google MKV GTI DMF there are a few people needed to change them alright. Mine seems ok so far but I wonder sometimes is there a little judder from it when I turn off the car. Saying that it's been like that for 15k and it hasn't changed.

Lumen

Who else does decent diesels? What are 2009-era Ford ones like now? Or PSA?

Wondering what else I could get for €15k, something with big depreciation, completely leftfield idea....

2009 Citroen C5 Estate 5-Door 2179 cc 2.2 HDi VTR+

£11.5k -> €13.2k + €3.5k VRT = €16.7k.

Hmm, blew the budget a bit. Still, a lot of waftable car for the money. But it's 172g CO2, therefore €630 motor tax. Doh!

Not helping myself here, need to focus!

It used to be so easy when I just wanted something fast.

Leonard Hofstadter

OP, modern diesels are not that reliable compared to their petrol siblings (in fact diesels are especially unreliable for people who do mostly short distance and/or low speed journeys, though it should be noted that the wrong petrol engine, such as an Efficient Dynamics BMW, is equally likely to be a moneypit), to be honest there's no point in buying one if you are buying it as a second car and doing low mileage.

Lumen

captainspeed wrote: »

OP, modern diesels are not that reliable compared to their petrol siblings (in fact diesels are especially unreliable for people who do mostly short distance and/or low speed journeys, though it should be noted that the wrong petrol engine, such as an Efficient Dynamics BMW, is equally likely to be a moneypit), to be honest there's no point in buying one if you are buying it as a second car and doing low mileage.

My internal conversation goes like this...

Starting point: Suzuki Swift 1.3 petrol (to be replaced).
Issues: too small. Avoid another supermini.
Get something bigger. Golf/Focus class?
This will be heavier. Petrol engine will be gutless.
Get bigger petrol engine.
Motor tax now too expensive pre- or post-2008.
Get a diesel - pokey but low-CO2. Must be post-2008 to avoid capacity-based tax.

So I end up looking at post-2008 diesels.

I realise that obsessing about motor tax is probably counterproductive, but I'm forking out €700 a year for the Honda FRV and I don't fancy doubling that.

Lumen

What are normally-aspirated 1.4 or 1.6 petrols like in a Golf/Focus sized car?

Damie

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2131995

Try test something like this, they can be got with full leather and heated seats, panoramic sunroof aswell, just something different

Cheap tax band too....

Leonard Hofstadter

Lumen wrote: »

What are normally-aspirated 1.4 or 1.6 petrols like in a Golf/Focus sized car?

Slow, and in the case of the 1.4 Golf, very unreliable.

Lumen

captainspeed wrote: »

Slow, and in the case of the 1.4 Golf, very unreliable.

So I'm back to post-2008 diesels, unless I go down the GTI route.

2008 Citroen C4 1997 cc 2.0HDi 16V Exclusive 5dr
Late-2008 so tax will be CO2-based.

£9k -> €10.3k + VRT (?).

Review.

edit: maybe the 1.6 HDI is worth considering. There are loads for sale in Ireland. Autocar says "There is a strong case for concluding that the 1.6 HDi engine is the only powerplant you’ll ever need in a C4...the 60mph sprint dismissed in just 10.3 seconds."

Example: C4 1.6 HDI, 2007, €9,750 from dealer.

neilboard

RX8 is brutal on petrol. As low as 17mpg. Insurance as a 2.6l I think.

Leonard Hofstadter

Lumen wrote: »

So I'm back to post-2008 diesels, unless I go down the GTI route.

2008 Citroen C4 1997 cc 2.0HDi 16V Exclusive 5dr
Late-2008 so tax will be CO2-based.

£9k -> €10.3k + VRT (?).

Review.

edit: maybe the 1.6 HDI is worth considering. There are loads for sale in Ireland. Autocar says "There is a strong case for concluding that the 1.6 HDi engine is the only powerplant you’ll ever need in a C4...the 60mph sprint dismissed in just 10.3 seconds."

Example: C4 1.6 HDI, 2007, €9,750 from dealer.

Autocar are talking about the 110 bhp version, most in Ireland are the 90 bhp version, which is considerably slower (at least it doesn't have a DPF though!).

On reflection, the 1.6 petrols in the Focus and Golf are quick enough, not earth shattering, but not bad either. They are much better than the dangerously underpowered 1.4s.

Just get a Golf GTI and be done with it, you'll have something that is properly quick, mostly reliable and besides any diesel fuel savings could easily be wiped out by a DMF or DPF or injector going.

Lumen

captainspeed wrote: »

Just get a Golf GTI and be done with it, you'll have something that is properly quick, mostly reliable and besides any diesel fuel savings could easily be wiped out by a DMF or DPF or injector going.

Jesus, you've had me googling now. DMF, DPF, EGR. Injectors going.

So basically the advice is that diesels are cheap on motor tax and for big mileage use, but for an out-of-warranty second car the couple of hundred a year on tax savings will likely be wiped out by a four figure repair bill when something complicated dies?

Stupid bloody greens, why can't I run a nice simple 6L petrol engine without getting hammered for it?

Leonard Hofstadter

Some people prefer the drive of a diesel too - they're especially useful in big heavy cars because they deliver all their grunt at low revs whereas a naturally aspirated petrol will have to be revved quite a bit to get it to go quickly becuase NA petrols deliver all their 'go' at higher revs.

Basically, diesels are not good for anyone that spends a significant proportion of their time driving around town and/or at low (< 70-80 kph)speeds.

It's not a mileage thing that causes them to go wrong, it is how they are used. They are designed around a fairly specific type of use, and people are spending mega bucks on diesels even though many people do not drive a diesel the way the manufacturer intended.

coylemj

Forget about carzone, most private sellers advertise on donedeal.ie Put in 'Golf' as the model and then search for 'gt 170' and you'll find lots of 170 bhp GTs. Aim for late 07 or later as the Sportline spec was merged into the GT from about July 07 and the model badge on the radiator changed to 'GT Sport'.

Don't be put off a car just because one whinger complains about a specific model, I had a 2007 170 bhp petrol GT for almost four years, never had a minute's bother with it.

frostie500

gpf101 wrote: »

€900 a year for me on a GTi. 25 years old, 7 years NCB, fully comp with step back NCB protection and windscreen cover.

Whos that with? The best I've been quoted is 1100 as a 26 year old with 7 years named experience (lost my NCB from a previous policy that was over two years ago)

Nonoperational

McCarthy insurances in Fermoy are the broker. Axa are the company. Named driver experience only goes so far I think.

frostie500

gpf101 wrote: »

McCarthy insurances in Fermoy are the broker. Axa are the company. Named driver experience only goes so far I think.

Yeah I know it's brutal, built up a couple of years NCB but when I sold the car I ended up just getting named on the parents car...now I'm about the feel the effects of that! Cheers for the details by the way

n97 mini

Lumen wrote: »

So I'm back to post-2008 diesels, unless I go down the GTI route.

2008 Citroen C4 1997 cc 2.0HDi 16V Exclusive 5dr
Late-2008 so tax will be CO2-based.

£9k -> €10.3k + VRT (?).

Review.

edit: maybe the 1.6 HDI is worth considering. There are loads for sale in Ireland. Autocar says "There is a strong case for concluding that the 1.6 HDi engine is the only powerplant you’ll ever need in a C4...the 60mph sprint dismissed in just 10.3 seconds."

Example: C4 1.6 HDI, 2007, €9,750 from dealer.

Not sure if opting for a French car over a Honda for reliability reasons is the best idea. I'm sure the French cars have DMFs too.

Lumen

n97 mini wrote: »

Not sure if opting for a French car over a Honda for reliability reasons is the best idea. I'm sure the French cars have DMFs too.

Yeah, I spent some time on the Citroen UK owner forums today.

Thing is, if I paid attention to every problem posted on the internet I'd never buy a car. :pac:

I had a Megane a few years ago. It was woeful - bits just fell off it. Fortunately nothing attached to the drivetrain, only non-essential items like window winders, glovebox handles, handbrake trim.

Seriously, this thread has been enormously useful. I am much further forward. Probably!

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

Jesus, you've had me googling now. DMF, DPF, EGR. Injectors going.

So basically the advice is that diesels are cheap on motor tax and for big mileage use, but for an out-of-warranty second car the couple of hundred a year on tax savings will likely be wiped out by a four figure repair bill when something complicated dies?

Pretty much. If you do a very high mileage, you kinda have to go diesel because of the fuel savings, but for someone on a low mileage buying a second hand car, petrol would be a much better choice. And since everybody is buying diesels these days (:rolleyes:), the petrol car will be very cheap to buy...

Squall19

Lumen wrote: »

So I'm back to post-2008 diesels, unless I go down the GTI route.

2008 Citroen C4 1997 cc 2.0HDi 16V Exclusive 5dr
Late-2008 so tax will be CO2-based.

£9k -> €10.3k + VRT (?).

Review.

edit: maybe the 1.6 HDI is worth considering. There are loads for sale in Ireland. Autocar says "There is a strong case for concluding that the 1.6 HDi engine is the only powerplant you’ll ever need in a C4...the 60mph sprint dismissed in just 10.3 seconds."

Example: C4 1.6 HDI, 2007, €9,750 from dealer.

That C4 will come close to 15k after VRT and I think a 1.6 HDI is too weak for that car.10 secs to 60 is slow enough too for a modern car, for 15k I would want something with a bit of grunt myself.

Like yourself I dont do big milage either, about 20 miles a day which includes going to work ,shops and soccer training etc, and a drive somewhere at the weekend, say max 80 miles.Thats about 10k miles a year.

I used to have a 1.9 130bhp diesel Fabia which would give similar mpg to the 1.6 diesel C4 you have there and it used to cost me about 25-30e a week doing that journey.Diesel was about 1.30 a litre that time I think.

Overall I was getting about 40-45mpg mpg on average, its possible to get near 50mpg if your very careful with the accelerator, but I hate driving like that, so boring, father drives like that and I hate being the passenger:D

I do the exact same journey in my new car a 2.3l Turbo Petrol 260bhp Mazda 3 and it costs me about 50e to do the same journey.There is a difference alright, but not that huge to be honest.

Mazda gets around 30mpg with that mixed driving and the Fabia diesel got 40-45mpg.

Like the Fabia, I put aside a bit of cash to do a few mods as I am into that:D

Fabia had remap to 170bhp, PD 160 air intake, Rear Anti-Rollbar, uprated 312mm brakes from Octavia Vrs, cost me just over 1k for that stuff ( fitted them myself with brother who is handy) .Money well spent imo as it transformed the car into something decent.

Mazda got the same treatment and has remap to 300bhp, cold air intake system, strut bar in the engine bay.

I actually didn't want a turbo petrol either, after being used to the diesel's running costs and decent power.I went looking at 07 Octavia Vrs diesel's, BMW 330d, Alfa 2.4 159 diesel.

All were fast, except the Octavia which was slower than the Fabia I had, wasn't impressed with that all.

Alfa and Bmw 330d were alot quicker, I actually loved the Alfa, really class machine but he wanted way too much for it and I would have to go to england to get a decent one, as no one buys big Alfa's here.

BMW 330d was just as expensive, but god it was fast in straight line, really pushed you back in the seat.

As I wasn't prepared to pay crazy money for a car I got the Mazda for just under 11k last year for a 07, in great nick, warranty, low milage, full service history, one owner from new etc.

It costs me about 20e a week more on fuel, but its faster, much cheaper to buy then the similar power diesel alternatives.

I would suggest you do the same Lumen.

If you want practical

2008 SEAT Leon 2.0 FR TFSI TURBO 200 BHP 11k

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201110201531040

Mazda 6 MPS 12K

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201115202038215

If you dont want practical, then buy the below, best money you will ever spend.

Honda Integra DC5

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/1270633