Builder gone off spec

rebelontour

Hi everyone,

Just looking for a bit of advice......we have built a house and moved in last August. The builder is still around as he has not completed the snag list yey (even though he has tld the architect he has). We have had a lot of noise when anyone is walking about upstairs and mentioned it to the builder. He agreed it was noisy and did something with the joists. Anyway, long story sdhort -I got the architect over to see for himself and he noticed in the landing upstairs (where there is no carpet yet) that the builder has installed a much cheaper timber floor than what is specified in the plans. There was to be some sort of soundproofing membrane put down as well but that was not done.

We also had some issues with 'lumpy' carpet in the bedroom which i blamed on poor fitting, When the carpet guy came and lifted it he showed me the timber floor was liek a patchwork quilt from where they had cut to access joists. It was extremely uneven - hence the lumpy carpet.

We have the bathroom completely tiled and that floor is very spring as he nailed the timber flor down as opposed to screwing them in and the tiler says they could crack in a few years. If I get the tiler to list the floor tiles the bottom wall tile needs to be lifted also. The tiler reckons that I will struggle to get a bactch of tiles to match what the rest of the bathroom has. I have been told a new floor (which he has agrred to fit) will take two weeks to sort and all skirting removed. Upstairs has just been painted and now there will be all that dust ect...

Any advice as to what is a realistic and justified demand to make to the builder? (who is still due his last stage payment thank god).

I would appreciate someone elses opinion as I am ver angry about this.
Thanks.

muffler

rebelontour wrote: »

Any advice as to what is a realistic and justified demand to make to the builder? (who is still due his last stage payment thank god).

For a change you are in the driving seat as you hold the money and money talks

Dont pay him until both you and your architect are satisfied that he has finished the job to an acceptable standard. If that means lifting tiles, carpet etc then so be it. Thats his problem and not yours.

Do try and resolve the issues amicably however.

Did you have a contact signed in respect of the works?

rebelontour

thanks Muffler,

Contract is sitting on the architects desk, unsigned. I am not too happy with that fella either. He shouls have spotted this and also advised me to pay the builder the srage payment in early new year as 'you always have the retention' to fall back on!'. He has'nt covered himself in glory.

muffler

Yeah it was the retention part of the contract I was alluding to. Damn thing is that the retention may now be non existent.

There's absolutely no excuse for having an unsigned contract sitting gathering dust somewhere. I think your architect needs to explain his actions or lack of.

Contract or no contract the builder/contractor is obliged to carry out the works in accordance with all statutory regulations and what we loosely call "good building practices".

I think you need to clear the air first with your architect and see why the contract was never signed and what he now proposes to do (at his own cost) to bring the builder back to the house with a view to having the outstanding/faulty works remedied.

rebelontour

thanks again Muffler. You are right - I have a meeting with the architect next week and I intend asking that very question. How do you mean the retention may now be non existent?

Poor Uncle Tom

rebelontour wrote: »

thanks again Muffler. You are right - I have a meeting with the architect next week and I intend asking that very question. How do you mean the retention may now be non existent?

The retention amount is usually used to rectify defects which arise in the liability period of the contract. If the retention monies are used now to complete bad or unfinished works then there is no monies left for the defects liability period, thus no retention left for the period it was to cover.

I think you need to find out exactly when the contractor strayed off the specification and what, if any, other corners were cut. A multitude can be hidden in 'covered works'. I think it is a good idea to keep your solicitor up to date on all this as well.

rebelontour

thanks a mill for the help

martinn123

In My Opinion, during the conversations with Architect, and Solicitor you should inquire as to the state of their Professional Liability Insurance.Your Architect has an unsigned Contract, yet he has signed off on payments to date.How are you financing this ( apologies if thats too personal a question )Your Solicitor if this is financed through a bank, has drawn down funds with no contract in place. ???If the problems cannot be rectified with the builder these guys have left you swinging in the wind.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

......If the problems cannot be rectified with the builder these guys have left you swinging in the wind.

not necessarily, and thats a bit scare mongering.

contracts can exist orally
a duty of care still exists from both the architect and builder
and the builder still has to construct in accordance with what he is provided, if thats what the oral contract agreed was.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

not necessarily, and thats a bit scare mongering.

You are right,

contracts can exist orally
a duty of care still exists from both the architect and builder
and the builder still has to construct in accordance with what he is provided, if thats what the oral contract agreed was.

Yes but if it comes to a dispute, how do you prove the contents of an oral contract. Who was it said, an verbal contract is not worth the paper, its written on.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

You are right,

Yes but if it comes to a dispute, how do you prove the contents of an oral contract. Who was it said, an verbal contract is not worth the paper, its written on.

the documents will exist as the plans and specs the builder was provided with.
the 'contract' will exist in the fact that the builder is carrying out the works.

the sticky part would actually the builder trying to prove that the specification was something he didnt have to stick with.

i have some first hand experience in a situation similar to this. Where engagements happen orally, whatever documents exist around these oral contracts are treated as the actual de facto contract. therefore in this case the plans and spec provided would act in the favour of the client.

but obviously when it gets to that stage, everyone looses.. best to get this sorted without resorting to legal action.

to the OP, if the retention monies still exist, do not pay the guy until the situation is rectified and do not agree to any extra costs without it being agreed by all parties.

Poor Uncle Tom

sydthebeat wrote: »

do not pay the guy until the situation is rectified and do not agree to any extra costs without it being agreed by all parties.

....in writing...;)

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

the documents will exist as the plans and specs the builder was provided with.
the 'contract' will exist in the fact that the builder is carrying out the works.

Correct. And, if it was specifed at the time of tender what type/form the contract would be (e.g. RIAI form of contract) the contractor, when appointed, would be deemed to be working under the terms of that contract (whether or not the actual physical contract was actually signed or not).

rebelontour

thanks guys - the builder, when told by the architect that he had gone of spec, said'i will have to put a new floor in then'. I know he will rectify this, but I am wondering how entitled am i to say I want my bathroom floor done as spec also, which will mean ripping tiles up and redecorating. Similarly, the upstairs has been painted. In my mind its only right he does that but thats bound to be my opinion. We have two weeks upheaval now where everything will have to be taken out of upstairs, Also, how do I know that he has'nt gone off spec in other areas?

The architect has been issuing certificates for the mortgage for me to give to the solicitor. It is not just retention money we have - he is due his last stage payment too.

martinn123

rebelontour wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Just looking for a bit of advice......we have built a house and moved in last August. The builder is still around as he has not completed the snag list yey (even though he has tld the architect he has). We have had a lot of noise when anyone is walking about upstairs and mentioned it to the builder. He agreed it was noisy and did something with the joists.

Workmanship??

Anyway, long story sdhort -I got the architect over to see for himself and he noticed in the landing upstairs (where there is no carpet yet) that the builder has installed a much cheaper timber floor than what is specified in the plans. There was to be some sort of soundproofing membrane put down as well but that was not done.

Specification??

We also had some issues with 'lumpy' carpet in the bedroom which i blamed on poor fitting, When the carpet guy came and lifted it he showed me the timber floor was liek a patchwork quilt from where they had cut to access joists. It was extremely uneven - hence the lumpy carpet.

Workmanship??

We have the bathroom completely tiled and that floor is very spring as he nailed the timber flor down as opposed to screwing them in and the tiler says they could crack in a few years. I have been told a new floor (which he has agrred to fit) will take two weeks to sort and all skirting removed.

...
Workmanship??

Any advice as to what is a realistic and justified demand to make to the builder? (who is still due his last stage payment thank god).

I would appreciate someone elses opinion as I am ver angry about this.
Thanks.

I accept points raised regarding the possible existance of a contract, but how does it deal with either, errors of specification, or poor workmanship.

martinn123

rebelontour wrote: »

thanks guys - the builder, when told by the architect that he had gone of spec, said'i will have to put a new floor in then'. I know he will rectify this, but I am wondering how entitled am i to say I want my bathroom floor done as spec also, which will mean ripping tiles up and redecorating. Similarly, the upstairs has been painted. In my mind its only right he does that but thats bound to be my opinion. We have two weeks upheaval now where everything will have to be taken out of upstairs, Also, how do I know that he has'nt gone off spec in other areas?

The architect has been issuing certificates for the mortgage for me to give to the solicitor. It is not just retention money we have - he is due his last stage payment too.

Good news on the Final stage payment, hope you have not paid the Arch. yet, or the Solicitor.If not don't until you are happy all have done their job.I would love to read the Arch. Certs.............. I can confirm work, to the value of XX has been completed in accordance with the non-existant contract, and that the builder has not complied with the specification agreed...........

rebelontour

the workmanship is fine....the specification stated that the floor must be screwed down...therefore he has gone off spec. meeting the architect next week..architect has been paid unfortunately. luckily i have a chunk of the builders money.

rayjdav

Just a side re contracts. According to David Keane, Building Law a contract is defined in Irish law through Offer, Acceptance, Consideration, whether or not there is a formal written contract in existance.

From my understanding here, an Offer was made to complete the works as originally specified for an agreed rate, you (the client) accepted his offer and consideration (money) has formally changed hands for works carried out. So regardless of the written document, you have the builder by the short and curlies but as stated above, it would naturally be best for all concerned if this was sorted out before it went down a legal route imho.

martinn123

rebelontour wrote: »

the workmanship is fine....the specification stated that the floor must be screwed down...therefore he has gone off spec. meeting the architect next week..architect has been paid unfortunately. luckily i have a chunk of the builders money.

Hi. Your No.1 priority is to get the home finished, and on-spec, so the fact that you have a chunk of the Builders cash, leaves you in a strong position. I have no doubt this aspect will be resolved.

Your posts, point to another aspect, which perhaps the Architects who post here might address, for the general benefit of viewers/posters

The Arch. if paid, has not dealt with the Contract, issued Certs. to bank, which are not in order, as the final drawdown has not issued, he has not issued Final Certs, of completion, Building Reg's etc.

How has he been paid?? his work is not complete.

As with the builder, surely his Fees should be as the project progresses.

Is this how the profession works.

sinnerboy

OP I'm going to take a different slant on this.

Fast forward 5 or 10 years. You want to sell or re mortgage. But you can't because you have no

1. Certificate of Compliance documents ( 1. Planning 2. Building Regulations ) from the Architect and
2. Certificate of Compliance - Building Regulations from the Contractor and his Electricians RECI certs

Do not lose site of this now however poorly you perceive either parties performance to have been. I'm not saying roll over. I am saying box clever.

Firmly but politely let the architect know you feel he's let you down. Try to motivate him to be 100% on your side to make the case against the builder who has the primary responsibility to deliver on the contract . ( I fully agree with those who have posted that signed or unsigned - a contract very much exists and is enforceable ) . I suggest you do no more than embarrass the Architect over the unsigned contract . Don't make him walk.

Sadly legal cases are won as much on perceptions as realties . Avoid legal at (almost) all cost and in particular forget about being in legal actions with both the Architect and The builder as some poor advice posted earlier implies.

Assuming you do motivate the architect as I have suggested look for him to provide documentation to build your case against the contractor. Defects listed photographed and costed. ( Heavily ) .

But here's the rub. You don't want to provoke the builder to walk away either - but you do want him to want to walk away - bear with me .

He has stated that he accepts he has to redo the floor so he is not entirely unreasonable . Build a paper case to convince the builder that an awful lot of money is required to put things right. Talk to him in person as regretful , "what else can I do ? " . What you are in reality seeking is agreed discount - in writing - from the final payment. Only to be made after all construction certs ( including RECI ) are handed over.

A compensation fund will be far better than remedial works made under duress.

So your bathroom tiles may crack after a while. If your wife is like mine she'll want them replaced anyway , cracked or not , sooner than you think.

.

rebelontour

thanks a million for all help guys...sinnerboy thanks for that last post - i think that is sound advice to move forward. I have a meeting with the architect tomorrow evening and will be asking him some very embarrassing questions. I agree that a discount on the agreed price would be a good result. I would be happy for the builder to replace the floor and finish the snag list. I did ask before about a certificate of completion - the architect said he will issue that once the snag list is completed. We have been in now since last August and to be facing into the summer months knowing that internal work is going to have to be done again is crazy. thanks again everyone - i will update tomorrow night.

sinnerboy

rebelontour wrote: »

I agree that a discount on the agreed price would be a good result. I would be happy for the builder to replace the floor and finish the snag list.

Just to clarify - I am suggesting a walk away deal. Discount ( best you can push for) and builder walks away after shaking hands , handing over certs , but no more works.

I am assuming the snag list is comprised of only small items of course. Things annoying but that you can live with and/or employ good guys/girls to attend to funded by the discount.

Your architect should give you a view as to whether my advice here is appropriate , knowing more of the circumstances than I do .

rebelontour

i think he may be inclined to go for that when he sees the quotes i have got for tiling, lifting and replacing carpet, painting etc...thanks again.

Mellor

martinn123 wrote: »

You are right,

Yes but if it comes to a dispute, how do you prove the contents of an oral contract. Who was it said, an verbal contract is not worth the paper, its written on.

Samuel Goldwyn, although he didn't actually say it.
What he said, in typical Goldwyn fashion (in reference to a trust worthy person) "his oral contract is worth the paper it's written on"

The fact is oral contracts are binding in law. There have been quite a few billion dollar cases involving oral contracts. One was a major oil company in the 80s and anthoer was Fyffes bananas I believe

rebelontour

Met with the architect yesterday. Asked why the builder has not signed a contract - he said all three of us had not been in a room together!. I voiced my displeasure and he said that the builder is under a contract anyway since works began. He has agreed and it will be signed by the end of the week. He has issued certificates for the mortgage after site visits to ensure the work was on track at each of the 5 stages. The builder has agreed that he has to replace the floor - if I go as specified on plans then all upstairs - stud walls etc. will need to be knocked. That will take significant time and the architect says in his opinion he does'nt know if the house will be thesame again. He suggests replacing the existing floor in most rooms with what was specified and screwing it down and sealing the joints. The specification askes for a type of soundproofing but he says that he has spoken to specialists who tell him that will not make a difference. Intially he suggests we tell the builder we want full replacement as spec - this will involve serious inconvenience and cost to the builder. As advised by sinnerboy, he agrees that we can negotiate a discount to leave the bathroom tiling as is and bank it for the future. All upstairs will be repainted and a professional cleaning company come in after work completed.

I have to take his word that the resilient bar that is in the specification that he now thinks will not improve soundproofing is not needed. He proposes that we also inspect as much of the work already carried out as we can - cameras into drains etc. He meets this week with the builder to make proposal. Not sure how I feel about the proposal yet - my house will not be finished as spec on one hand but on the other hand if it was to be all of upstairs will need knocked. ??

LoTwan

Is soundproofing currently an issue for you? Is it likely to become one? (remembering that your kids, if you have any, will become heavy footed stomping teenagers). If the answer to either of them is yes then not doing something now about the issue is only going to lead to resentment & displeasure in your house.

Have you gotten a quote to have all the work done to spec (walls out, floors up, soundproofing in, floors, flooring & walls replaced, cleaning & decoration). I appreciate that your architect has said that the place will never be the same but right now the house is not how it was supposed to be.

I am with sinnerboy. If the builder couldn't do the job right the first time I wouldn't give him an opportunity to try again. Personally I would get him off my site & find someone else to finish the job.

I am not sure if it is of any benefit but have you asked what certification your architect provided (rather than the basis of his certification). Is he contracted to inspect at set intervals or for set events?

rebelontour

he is contracted to to inspect at four intervals - before each stage payment. I am not sure of the type of certification that he has provided.soundproofing is an issue at the moment which is why we came across the issue with the flooring. The architect is of the opinion that knocking everything and finishing as spec is no guarantee that we will have no soundproofing issues. When i mentioned not letting the builder carry out the work the architect said that he had to give him the opportunity to fix it.

martinn123

rebelontour wrote: »

he is contracted to to inspect at four intervals - before each stage payment. I am not sure of the type of certification that he has provided.soundproofing is an issue at the moment which is why we came across the issue with the flooring. The architect is of the opinion that knocking everything and finishing as spec is no guarantee that we will have no soundproofing issues. When i mentioned not letting the builder carry out the work the architect said that he had to give him the opportunity to fix it.

At the risk of upsetting the Architects who regurarly post here, yours sounds a total muppett.4 inspections, what did he inspect......... he specifies soundproofing, and now speaks to some specialist who says it makes no difference......so why did he specify in the first place......... now he says he has to give the builder the chance to rectify all the mistakes, he missed at the inspections......I know he is paid, but I would be reminding him he has issued certs to your Bank for work which is not up to scratch.........what does your solicitor think of all this, or is he related to the builder as well.

rebelontour

my solicitor is handling the funds and issues once cert received. the architect's case is that we did not hire him for full supervision - this would have meant a visit every 2 weeks - with hindsight he says that would have been the way to go.

BryanF

martinn123 wrote: »

At the risk of upsetting the Architects who regurarly post here, yours sounds a total muppett.4 inspections, what did he inspect......... he specifies soundproofing, and now speaks to some specialist who says it makes no difference......so why did he specify in the first place......... now he says he has to give the builder the chance to rectify all the mistakes, he missed at the inspections......I know he is paid, but I would be reminding him he has issued certs to your Bank for work which is not up to scratch.........what does your solicitor think of all this, or is he related to the builder as well.

this is a tough situation for the inspecting arch. unless he/she is on site more regularly (which people don't want to pay for) it can be very difficult to see such details. 'the archs coming tomorrow, cover ever thing up quick' attitude is how it works IMHO. the builder is contracted to build to the spec and fault lies with him.. excluding the contract mess up that is

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

At the risk of upsetting the Architects who regurarly post here, yours sounds a total muppett.4 inspections, what did he inspect......... he specifies soundproofing, and now speaks to some specialist who says it makes no difference......so why did he specify in the first place......... now he says he has to give the builder the chance to rectify all the mistakes, he missed at the inspections......I know he is paid, but I would be reminding him he has issued certs to your Bank for work which is not up to scratch.........what does your solicitor think of all this, or is he related to the builder as well.

this post exemplifies the popular misunderstanding of an "inspection" engagement and a "supervision" engagement.

If the architect was engaged to 'supervise' the work, then its highly arguable that he bears some fault in not seeing what was being installed. However, as he/she was only engaged to 'inspect' the work, generally say 6 over the lifetime of the build, then its disingenuous to expect him her to be able to see everything thats installed in the house. A 24 week build equates to 1 inspect every 4 weeks. A builder will easily have a timber floor plaster boarded and sheeted in 4 weeks.

martinn123

BryanF wrote: »

this is a tough situation for the inspecting arch. unless he/she is on site more regularly (which people don't want to pay for) it can be very difficult to see such details. 'the archs coming tomorrow, cover ever thing up quick' attitude is how it works IMHO.

And Architects do not know this?What does a typical site visit involve then, he has laid down the spec. surely matters such as the floor not laid correctly is obvious, what about the lack of soundproofing.

the builder is contracted to build to the spec and fault lies with him.. excluding the contract mess up that is

And the architect is contracted to check that the work is done to spec, so not realising the builder is at fault, is who's job, the OP?

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

And the architect is contracted to check that the work is done to spec, so not realising the builder is at fault, is who's job, the OP?

says who??

the inspection engagement is, typically, to provide certification in compliance with planning permission and building regulations.

i cannot see how an architect could agree to provide a service to ensure the specification is adhered too, and then agree to a period inspection process !!?!?!

its the builders responsibility to build to spec, if thats what is agreed... pure and simply. If the architect is engaged to supervise the build and ensure the spec is adhered to, then theres joint responsibility... but thats doesnt seem to be the case here

BryanF

+1

BryanF

martinn123 wrote: »

And Architects do not know this?What does a typical site visit involve then, he has laid down the spec. surely matters such as the floor not laid correctly is obvious, what about the lack of soundproofing.

And the architect is contracted to check that the work is done to spec, so not realising the builder is at fault, is who's job, the OP?

you confuse a supervision site visit with stage payment inspections.

if I was contracted to check the job was done to spec I'd be on site a lot more regularly than is needed to sign off for bank cash.

you confuse Project management with stage payment sign-off

muffler

I'd rather we stuck with the OP's query. Anything else can be discussed in a new thread or by PM.

Cheers.





.

martinn123

rebelontour wrote: »

Hi everyone,

The builder is still around as he has not completed the snag list yey (even though he has tld the architect he has). -I got the architect over to see for himself and he noticed in the landing upstairs (where there is no carpet yet) that the builder has installed a much cheaper timber floor than what is specified in the plans. There was to be some sort of soundproofing membrane put down as well but that was not done.

When the carpet guy came and lifted it he showed me the timber floor was liek a patchwork quilt from where they had cut to access joists. It was extremely uneven - hence the lumpy carpet.

We have the bathroom completely tiled and that floor is very spring as he nailed the timber flor down as opposed to screwing them in and the tiler says they could crack in a few years.

fair enough SYD, your explanation of inspection and supervision, however what's mentioned above, sounds like items an Architect should notice whatever the reason for a visit, items were not covered up.In my opinion however not having explained the difference at the outset, the Architect will rely on this to avoid any liability.So the OP was left to rely on the carpet man and the tiler to ensure his home is built correct

martinn123

muffler wrote: »

I'd rather we stuck with the OP's query. Anything else can be disused in a new thread or by PM.

Cheers.

Sorry I was typing as you posted,

sinnerboy

martinn123 wrote: »

At the risk of upsetting the Architects who regurarly post here, yours sounds a total muppett.4 inspections, what did he inspect......... he specifies soundproofing, and now speaks to some specialist who says it makes no difference......so why did he specify in the first place......... now he says he has to give the builder the chance to rectify all the mistakes, he missed at the inspections......I know he is paid, but I would be reminding him he has issued certs to your Bank for work which is not up to scratch.........what does your solicitor think of all this, or is he related to the builder as well.

At the risk of upsetting you , you don't understand the points made by others here. Mortgage drawn down payment inspections are only that. To ensure that the value of works = drawdown claim. Detailed compliance with spec is another issue. Only a full appointment pays for this level of inspection.

Big penny dropping moment here - Works may not be fully compliant with the spec but they may yet may hold the value of the drawdown claim . The purpose of such an appointment is to protect the banks and no else.

And as to the value of certifications queried by Lotwan - well try raising finance on a property in future without them!

OP - out of curiosity - would you have appointed an architect at all if the mortgage provider had not insisted ? The reason I ask is that some with enough cash and who don't need to borrow often "don't see the need" for an architect as "the builder knows what he's doing" . Which paradoxically is exactly why an architect is need in the first place - full appointment.

LoTwan

martinn123 wrote: »

And the architect is contracted to check that the work is done to spec, so not realising the builder is at fault, is who's job, the OP?

My own opinion is that anyone who chooses to not employ someone to site supervise either blindly trusts that the contractor/individual tradesmen will adhere to the spec (a decision that is reached through research & recommendations) or opts to supervise/monitor/inspect themselves (to the limit of their abilities)

OP... have you checked whether the contractor has stuck to your other specs (airtightness, insulation, cold bridging etc). Have all of these been certified for the BER?

LoTwan

martinn123 wrote: »

Sorry I was typing as you posted,

Me too & I'm on my phone so it's SLOW!

muffler

martinn123 wrote: »

Sorry I was typing as you posted,

LoTwan wrote: »

Me too & I'm on my phone so it's SLOW!

LoTwan

<SNIP>

LoTwan

rebelontour... how did you get on with the builder?

rebelontour

sorry about the delay with coming back lads....been waiting to hear.

Had a heated meeting with architect and he has met with builder and started with the viewpoint that I want it completely finished as spec. This will involve all walls upstairs being knocked and a lot of disruption which I would rather avoid. Obviously builder is not liking what he hears but knows that I am within my rights. Arch then suggests a plan b - that he lifts the floor in all the rooms except the bathroom and replaces with intended floor, screws it in this time and glues it to joist. Has given the builder a sum that the bathroom will cost to replace and the builder has gone to consider that sum. He is happy with all other demands - repaint upstairs and timeline desired. I have spoken to a few builders who reckon that if i was to knock everything upstairs that it is not going to do the house any good, hence why I am happy with plan b as long as suitable compensation is set aside for bathroom. I have also pointed out that i have no faith/trust in builder so arch has suggetsed we het dynarod to put camers into drains etc to check quality. Arch will also inspect joists in every room when existing floor lifted.

Contract has now be signed also. Builder told no money at all until snaglist completely signed off. So waiting game at the moment to see what builder comes back with.

sinnerboy

Rebelontour - out of curiosity -

On what basis was the architect appointed ?
Full appointment - or - Mortgage draw down inspections ?
IF for mortgage draw-downs only would you have appointed an architect at all if the mortgage provider had not insisted ?

.

rebelontour

hi lads - time for an update.....architect had a reply from builder who has now magically gone from holding his hansds up and admitting he has made a mistaketo arguing the bit on the smallest detail. Claims he does not need to replace part of the floor upstairs as 'its not creaking'. Painter says upstairs will need a repaoint as the matt washable paint can't just be touched up - builder says he will do the painting. Carpets need lifted out f rooms - builder says he will lift them. Tiler price for the bathroom he reckons he can do cheaper with his own tiler which obviously ain't happening. I am now getting a quote for full replacement of all tiles in the bathroom and the architect is happy to leave him sweat. We were supposed to have a meeting a wek ago but when I saw what he deemed 'fair' I instructed the architect to cancel. As I hold the money I am happy to let him sweat until he decides to be realistic - his current attitude is as if WE have made the mistake..unreal...by the way in answer to a question on the previous post the architect was appointed to inspect before each mortgage draw down...

sinnerboy

rebelontour wrote: »

.by the way in answer to a question on the previous post the architect was appointed to inspect before each mortgage draw down...

... and would you have made that appointment if your lender had not made you do so ?

martinn123

sinnerboy wrote: »

Rebelontour - out of curiosity -

On what basis was the architect appointed ?
Full appointment - or - Mortgage draw down inspections ?
IF for mortgage draw-downs only would you have appointed an architect at all if the mortgage provider had not insisted ?

.

OP - out of curiosity - would you have appointed an architect at all if the mortgage provider had not insisted ? The reason I ask is that some with enough cash and who don't need to borrow often "don't see the need" for an architect as "the builder knows what he's doing" . Which paradoxically is exactly why an architect is need in the first place - full appointment.

... and would you have made that appointment if your lender had not made you do so ?

I think its obvious at this point that the appointment was for mortgage drawdowns, so other than make the OP feel worse than he does, given his problems, you have made your point.At this time the Architect is working along-side the OP to rectify the problems, and thankfully he has the final payment in his pocket, so is in a strong bargaining position.Perhaps a Thread to outline the options available when engaging an Architect would be helpful to self-builders rather than trying to make this guy admit he made a mistake, probably as no one explained the options to him.

sinnerboy

To avoid doubt I'm not posting "as moderator" now.

Please don't second guess why I ask these questions and how the OP "feels". He stated early on the architect

has'nt covered himself in glory

. Like so many he seemed not to appreciate the limited scope of the architects appointment for mortgage draw down purposes only.

I'm not looking to embarrass him as he's got plenty of company.

I am interested to know if on reflection if he would have made a full architectural service appointment. Or if he would have made any appointment at all if his lender did not insist.

I declare my bias here upfront - this is partly how I earn a crust.

creedp

Perhaps a Thread to outline the options available when engaging an Architect would be helpful to self-builders rather than trying to make this guy admit he made a mistake, probably as no one explained the options to him.

I would second that point. I made a similar point before as had I been more aware of the pitfalls of a self-build plus the benefits attaching to having an architect in your corner for a self-build whether you go down the road of a direct labour job or a contractor I would certaintly have appointed an architect. As I said at the time nobody I know who has built a house appointed an architect to supervise a build and only one person used an architect to draw up plans. So I became one of the sheep and have sufferred the consequences. I think architects should publicise the benefits to their expertise much more agressively particularly now with revised Building Regs coming down the tracks.