Friction between Orange and Green regiments in WW1 ?

PatsytheNazi

So it seems all wasn't so rosy as some would like to portray between the soldeirs form Ireland in WW1. Shouldn't come as a big surpirse. A guy I went to school with and who joined the Guardsa and was stationed on the border in Donegal told me at various times in the 80's it wasn't uncommon for the Gurads and the UDR to be giving each other ' pleasentires' ( the two fingers etc ) across at each other Anyone have any more information on hostility between nationalists and unionists in WW1 ?

" If this statement seems incredible to persons who have implicit faith in the unvarying discipline enforced in all units of the British army, let it be remembered that what I have just said was stated by a British officer at Colthurst's court martial. More, it is easy to prove that there was open animosity between all the Irish regiments, as regards those recruited in the north-east and in the south of Ireland. Although they all wore the British uniform and served the same king, they were bitterly hostile to one another. Between the Royal Irish Rifles, for instance, and the Dublin Fusiliers there was constant friction. The former was an Orange regiment from Belfast.
" Through my family's connections with the British military forces I had become acquainted with Captain T. Wilson, then a despatch rider in the Dublin Fusiliers. I appealed to him after rumours had reached me that my husband was being held prisoner in Portobello Barracks to go there and make enquiries. He refused point blank, asking me if I wanted him to go to his death. When he realised I didn't understand the situation, he explained. He dared not go near the Royal Irish Rifles. He was a Catholic ! "

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Michael_Collins_own_Story/12SHEEHY_SKEFFINGTON.html

The Scientician

Were any of these groups organised by county? From the tales my dad told me of various of our relatives over in the US around the same time there used to be war between say lads from Cork and Dublin, and Mayo and Tyrone etc. So mix in a bit of sectarianism and kablamo I can imagine it was common enough for there to be fistycuffs.

PatsytheNazi

The Scientician wrote: »

Were any of these groups organised by county? From the tales my dad told me of various of our relatives over in the US around the same time there used to be war between say lads from Cork and Dublin, and Mayo and Tyrone etc. So mix in a bit of sectarianism and kablamo I can imagine it was common enough for there to be fistycuffs.

I have heard of drunken punch ups over in America between the various counties, or even trades i.e. carpenters v brickies etc Nothing like the anamosity between nationalists and unionists. I believe that nationalists from the north joined the 10th Irish Division while the unionists joined the 36th Ulster Division. It was said that if a Catholic had the misfortune to be in the 36th Ulster Division he had more to fear of getting it in the back from the unionists beside him than the Germans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_(Irish)_Division

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_(Ulster)_Division

R.Dub.Fusilier

good question PatsytheNazi.

i would find it hard to believe that there wasn't friction between both sides, after all it was only they could have been killing each other here in Ireland if it wasn't for the start of WW1.

i was talking to a bloke from Derry whos grandfather came south to join the RDF rather than take a chance and end up in a unionist regiment, of course we can only take his word on it but its not beyond belief.

owenc

The Scientician wrote: »

Were any of these groups organised by county? From the tales my dad told me of various of our relatives over in the US around the same time there used to be war between say lads from Cork and Dublin, and Mayo and Tyrone etc. So mix in a bit of sectarianism and kablamo I can imagine it was common enough for there to be fistycuffs.

Oh dear god americans are complete nutters when it comes to irish they are actually worse than the republicans themselves and that says something!? I'm not surprised this occured, they talk as if they are from here , i'd like to throttle one of my american relatives who seems to think hes lived here all his live and hes been through the troubles and all.. oh please...:rolleyes: Thats hardly sectarian tho because those areas have hardly any protestants. I would say that the areas were the most trouble was would've been up here (yayy :rolleyes: ) due to the whole ira and uvf being in procress etc... :rolleyes: Just wondering would the ww1 trouble include the b specials? Hmmm....

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I have heard of drunken punch ups over in America between the various counties, or even trades i.e. carpenters v brickies etc Nothing like the anamosity between nationalists and unionists. I believe that nationalists from the north joined the 10th Irish Division while the unionists joined the 36th Ulster Division. It was said that if a Catholic had the misfortune to be in the 36th Ulster Division he had more to fear of getting it in the back from the unionists beside him than the Germans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_(Irish)_Division

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_(Ulster)_Division

Erm no that is incorrect and a major generalisation, i had relatives in both families who were both in the UVF and in the Royal irish regiment its not a catholic thing you are totally wrong infact i was told by a local genealogist that the Royal irish regiment was 50/50 leading to the protestant side a bit. Just by looking at the presbyterian roll of honour it would seem that up here nearly all of the protestants were in the royal irish regiment and not the 36th ulster division i think thats a belfast thing..

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

good question PatsytheNazi.

i would find it hard to believe that there wasn't friction between both sides, after all it was only they could have been killing each other here in Ireland if it wasn't for the start of WW1.

i was talking to a bloke from Derry whos grandfather came south to join the RDF rather than take a chance and end up in a unionist regiment, of course we can only take his word on it but its not beyond belief.

I would agree with that don't listen to stories from auld folk from here as they seem to make up a pile of nonsense about the other side or else they make it sound worse than it actually was... i find it ever so hard to beleive some of the stories they come out with.

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

Erm no that is incorrect and a major generalisation, i had relatives in both families who were both in the UVF and in the Royal irish regiment its not a catholic thing you are totally wrong infact i was told by a local genealogist that the Royal irish regiment was 50/50 leading to the protestant side a bit. Just by looking at the presbyterian roll of honour it would seem that up here nearly all of the protestants were in the royal irish regiment and not the 36th ulster division i think thats a belfast thing..

Appearently the link and information I have in the OP is according to owenc " a major generalisation " while him talking to a local genealogist is supposed to be concrete proof. I suppose the animosity cannot be measured and indeed the British army and obidient press would have covered up and pretended everything was rosy between both sides.

It is quite possible that in your words nearly all of the protestants in your area were in the royal irish regiment. But like R.Dub.Fusilier I find it hard to believe that animosity didn't exist after all both had two completely different hopes at the end of the war, nationalists for Home Rule and unionists against it.

jonniebgood1

This should be a very interesting subject Patsy/ Owen- The views of the southern recruits and northern recruits would surely have changed as the war progressed given events in Ireland. Unionist and Nationalist supporters signed up for different reasons:

Nationalists, for whom the establishment of an Irish 'home rule' parliament in Dublin had been the principal political aim for most of the 19th century, were committed to the war effort by their leader, John Redmond, in September 1914.

This was on the grounds that the necessary legislation had been passed (though in fact it was suspended for the duration of the war), and that the 'freedom of small nations' (such as Belgium or Serbia) was that of Ireland as well. The plight of gallant, Catholic little Belgium, invaded by a militaristic aggressor, was disadvantageously compared with Ireland, achieving freedom (so Redmond argued) within the British Empire, rather like Canada or Australia.

Unionists, who were particularly concentrated in the northern province of Ulster, naturally needed less justification to join up. Having from 1912 organised a sizeable, armed, paramilitary 'Ulster Volunteer Force' (UVF) to oppose home rule and secure the union with Great Britain, they could scarcely stand idly by when Great Britain itself went to war. Despite some jockeying for party advantage, a substantial proportion of the UVF enlisted to form the predominantly unionist and almost wholly Protestant 36th (Ulster) Division. Nationalists, themselves mostly Catholic, joined the other two of Lord Kitchener's 'New Army' divisions raised in Ireland: the 10th (Irish) and 16th (Irish) Divisions.

This is taken from BBC and would suggest as Patsys post that the 36th was mainly Protestant. Perhaps there could be anomolies within this.

The article has what I think is a pertinent point as made by an Irish nationalist :

It was as Tom Kettle, a former nationalist MP who was killed on the Somme serving with the 16th Division, had predicted. 'These men' (the 1916 leaders), he wrote, 'will go down in history as heroes and martyrs; and I will go down - if I go down at all - as a bloody British officer.'

It is a relief that now almost 100 years on that people are beginning to see that Irish soldiers fought in WWI for Irish nationalist reasons as opposed to alternative motives.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/ireland_wwone_01.shtml

There is a memorial in Belguim called the 'island of ireland' that is interestingly dedicated to both the 10th and 36th divisions for a battle that they fought alongside each other:

This unusual memorial is dedicated to all Irishmen from whatever political persuasion or tradition who served and died in World War I, especially in the three divisions raised in Ireland of the BEF (British Expeditionary Force): the 36th (Ulster) Division, the 10th Division and the 16th Division.

http://www.ww1westernfront.gov.au/messines/
This would suggest that animosity between them was at the level of a grudge but they pulled together when necessary.
I would be interested to read more about any perceived problems between the divisions?

kabakuyu

owenc wrote: »

Erm no that is incorrect and a major generalisation, i had relatives in both families who were both in the UVF and in the Royal irish regiment its not a catholic thing you are totally wrong infact i was told by a local genealogist that the Royal irish regiment was 50/50 leading to the protestant side a bit. Just by looking at the presbyterian roll of honour it would seem that up here nearly all of the protestants were in the royal irish regiment and not the 36th ulster division i think thats a belfast thing..

Are you confusing the Royal Irish Regiment with the Royal Irish Rifles?
The RIREGT recruited mainly in the south east of Ireland in the counties of Wexford,Waterford,Kilkenny and Tipperary.At the outbreak of war in 1914 the two battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment was more than 90% southern Irish catholic( this is my estimate deduced from the casualty figures published in the Soldiers Died in the Great War).

owenc

kabakuyu wrote: »

Are you confusing the Royal Irish Regiment with the Royal Irish Rifles?
The RIREGT recruited mainly in the south east of Ireland in the counties of Wexford,Waterford,Kilkenny and Tipperary.At the outbreak of war in 1914 the two battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment was more than 90% southern Irish catholic( this is my estimate deduced from the casualty figures published in the Soldiers Died in the Great War).

Hmm no i'm sorry to be rude but i think your confusing the two groups look it up because i'm convinced the mixed one is the RIR because i know loads of people with ancestors who were in the RIR they are all protestants. It seems to be a secondary regiment for protestants to join here if they did not get into the 36th ulster regiment.

owenc

Wait is there a royal irish fusileers? Sorry for the mix up i think that might've been to one. EDIT: yea it was.

kabakuyu

The 36th Ulster was a Division(part of Kitcheners Army formed in 1914) not a regiment, it comprised 3 brigades each consisting of 4 battalions (approx 1000 men in a battalion).
These are the main recruiting areas for the Irish Regiments in the British Army.
Royal IRish Regiment-Wexford,Waterford,Tipperary,and Kilkenny.

Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers-Donegal,Derry,Fermanagh,Tyrone.

Royal Irish Fusiliers-Armagh,Cavan ,Monaghan.

Royal Irish Rifles-Down,Antrim,and Louth.(there was also a tradition of Dublin men joining the rifles as the old 83rd regiment(county of Dublin) formed part of the Royal Irish Rifles.

Connaught Rangers-Galway,Mayo,Sligo,Leitrim,Roscommon.

Royal dublin Fusiliers- Dublin City and County,Kildare.

Royal munster Fusiliers-Cork,limerick,Clare,Kerry.

Leinster Regiment-Meath,Westmeath,Laois,Offaly,Longford.

Irish guards, recruited all over ireland.

owenc

kabakuyu wrote: »

The 36th Ulster was a Division(part of Kitcheners Army formed in 1914) not a regiment, it comprised 3 brigades each consisting of 4 battalions (approx 1000 men in a battalion).
These are the main recruiting areas for the Irish Regiments in the British Army.
Royal IRish Regiment-Wexford,Waterford,Tipperary,and Kilkenny.

Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers-Donegal,Derry,Fermanagh,Tyrone.

Royal Irish Fusiliers-Armagh,Cavan ,Monaghan.

Royal Irish Rifles-Down,Antrim,and Louth.(there was also a tradition of Dublin men joining the rifles as the old 83rd regiment(county of Dublin) formed part of the Royal Irish Rifles.

Connaught Rangers-Galway,Mayo,Sligo,Leitrim,Roscommon.

Royal dublin Fusiliers- Dublin City and County,Kildare.

Royal munster Fusiliers-Cork,limerick,Clare,Kerry.

Leinster Regiment-Meath,Westmeath,Laois,Offaly,Longford.

Irish guards, recruited all over ireland.

Yep thats it royal inniskilling fusilliers. Could i ask why county louth is joined up with down and antrim and not derry down and antrim?

kabakuyu

Have a look at this link,I know its wiki but its accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_Irish_Rifles