Reform of Stormont

Bottle_of_Smoke

Was listening to a debate with representatives from 6 of the major parties in northern ireland a few nights ago

They were having a debate about ministry holders focused mostly on education. The entire set up is a farce. There's specific and multiple rivalries, agendas and personality clashes between each and every party.

There's a real lack of incentive within the system. Each party knows it will be in power with some form of political influence. This coupled with the large salary politicians take satisfies their personal amibitions. There are very few politicians run for election to national government who love their country. Most just want the high salary and sense of power (Even the average industrial wage Sinn Fein MLAs take is well higher than many; if not most Irish citizens. That's no attempt at a dig it is simply a fact and kudos to them for taking less than that they are legally entitled to)

At least with the Dail its a voluntary coalition so aspiring TDs know they could be in opposition and "only" get the money; not the power. God knows theres never been a decent government but if each party was guaranteed a place it would be even worse (if such a thing is possible)

After the elections pretty much everything is the same. The combined nationalist parties lost a seat in total and combined unionists gained 1 or 2. nothing major.

So is the northern assembly to continue like this indefinitely or will it go to voluntary coalition at some point? In that scenario unionists could easily form a coalition without nationalists which is a problem for obvious historical reasons.

Are there alternatives to power sharing in its current form and "normal" government?The way things are the parliament just seems like a waste of money

Cakes.

The way I see it is, if a Unionist party gets into Government alone they would treat Nationalists unfairly, as has been done in the past. Same thing would happen if a Nationalist party got in alone but towards Unionists and maybe on a smaller scale, as they know what it is like to be treated unfairly.

So a compromise is met in the middle, having both Unionist and Nationalists in Government together.

Maybe someday when the 'National Question' is answered there can be a normal government in Northern Ireland. But there may also be No Government in Northern Ireland at all when that question is answered.

KeithAFC

Cakesofrice wrote: »

The way I see it is, if a Unionist party gets into Government alone they would treat Nationalists unfairly, as has been done in the past. Same thing would happen if a Nationalist party got in alone but towards Unionists and maybe on a smaller scale, as they know what it is like to be treated unfairly.

So a compromise is met in the middle, having both Unionist and Nationalists in Government together.

Maybe someday when the 'National Question' is answered there can be a normal government in Northern Ireland. But there may also be No Government in Northern Ireland at all when that question is answered.

The national question is answered. What people don't understand about that, is beyond me.

Jim236

KeithAFC wrote: »

The national question is answered. What people don't understand about that, is beyond me.

If you say so.

PatsytheNazi

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Was listening to a debate with representatives from 6 of the major parties in northern ireland a few nights ago

They were having a debate about ministry holders focused mostly on education. The entire set up is a farce. There's specific and multiple rivalries, agendas and personality clashes between each and every party.

There's a real lack of incentive within the system. Each party knows it will be in power with some form of political influence. This coupled with the large salary politicians take satisfies their personal amibitions. There are very few politicians run for election to national government who love their country. Most just want the high salary and sense of power (Even the average industrial wage Sinn Fein MLAs take is well higher than many; if not most Irish citizens. That's no attempt at a dig it is simply a fact and kudos to them for taking less than that they are legally entitled to)

At least with the Dail its a voluntary coalition so aspiring TDs know they could be in opposition and "only" get the money; not the power. God knows theres never been a decent government but if each party was guaranteed a place it would be even worse (if such a thing is possible)

After the elections pretty much everything is the same. The combined nationalist parties lost a seat in total and combined unionists gained 1 or 2. nothing major.

So is the northern assembly to continue like this indefinitely or will it go to voluntary coalition at some point? In that scenario unionists could easily form a coalition without nationalists which is a problem for obvious historical reasons.

Are there alternatives to power sharing in its current form and "normal" government?The way things are the parliament just seems like a waste of money

No. There are no alternatives to power sharing as the unionists cannot be trusted to run the statelet fairly. It would be back to " not having a Catholic about the palce " like back in the ' good old days ' of unionism 1921 -1969.

Jim236

You only need to listen to the words of Tom Elliot to realise we are nowhere a stage where we can have voluntary coalitions, which would inevitably be Unionist-dominated. You may as well just stick up a sign outside Stormont saying "No Nationalist Need Apply", because we would just return to the days of Unionist-controlled government, leaving 45% of the North's population completely unrepresented in government.

Bottle_of_Smoke

It wouldn't be quite the same in that anti-discrimination legislation of the modern PC world would prevent the abuses that went on in the past.

The problem areas would be things like language and culture. It is a pity the nationalist side isn't just a bit bigger because if the unionists had to depend on the Alliance party for support I wouldn't have a problem with voluntary coalition. As is, DUP + UUP + Jim Allistair would have a one seat majority. Some independet unionist MLAs would likely support too.

southsiderosie

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Are there alternatives to power sharing in its current form and "normal" government?The way things are the parliament just seems like a waste of money

Regardless of the institutional setup, there will never be 'normal' politics in Northern Ireland until its politicians are responsible for BOTH raising and spending revenue, not just spending it. It's much easier to dick around on other people's money.

nordydan

southsiderosie wrote: »

Regardless of the institutional setup, there will never be 'normal' politics in Northern Ireland until its politicians are responsible for BOTH raising and spending revenue, not just spending it. It's much easier to dick around on other people's money.

A lot of truth in this. Historically I believe the attitude of the old Stormont regime would have been somewhat less extreme if they had to balance the books every year. This is still not a concept that has caught on.

When it does, there will be a very different attitude to the more petty sectarian issues in NI

mistermouse

The National Question not only has not been answered nor has it really been asked properly.

The British I dare say have not wanted Northern Ireland for many years, the Republic haven't really either in general, even through the boom times. Most southerners didn't really loose too much sleep over it.

But Unionists and Nationalists do really need to look at what they have now. The DUP and Sinn Fein have started to realise that. The DUP realise they dare not contemplate the alternative of joint rule. The UUP Leaders attempt to out DUP them was pretty pathetic last week and at least ten years too late.

There still needs to be compromise on the hardline elements and many in Northern Ireland are happy just to be getting on with life, many in the border counties are happy to have the choice.

But one thing is probably true, learn to get on cos the Britain and the Republic don't want you as you are. The Irish probably would like you in a perfect world, the UK find you a pain in the arse.

If you think the national question has been settled, ask the uk as a whole.

Jim236

mistermouse wrote: »

The National Question not only has not been answered nor has it really been asked properly.

The British I dare say have not wanted Northern Ireland for many years, the Republic haven't really either in general, even through the boom times. Most southerners didn't really loose too much sleep over it.

But Unionists and Nationalists do really need to look at what they have now. The DUP and Sinn Fein have started to realise that. The DUP realise they dare not contemplate the alternative of joint rule. The UUP Leaders attempt to out DUP them was pretty pathetic last week and at least ten years too late.

There still needs to be compromise on the hardline elements and many in Northern Ireland are happy just to be getting on with life, many in the border counties are happy to have the choice.

But one thing is probably true, learn to get on cos the Britain and the Republic don't want you as you are. The Irish probably would like you in a perfect world, the UK find you a pain in the arse.

If you think the national question has been settled, ask the uk as a whole.

In a poll conducted in 2006 for the Sunday Business Post, 80% of people in the Republic said they wanted a United Ireland. In 2007, the British Social Attitudes Survey found that 40% of Britons supported Irish reunification, against 32% who supported the North remaining in the UK. So there is clearly widespread support for Irish Unity across both countries.

We haven't had any large-scale polls since then so to anyone that dismisses them, they're all we have to go by, but I would be very surprised if support for a United Ireland has reduced since the recession as it was never dependent on the state of the economy.