Stop, Start engines. Future headaches!

billyboy01

With all the new cars and coming cars, all having this stop start engine technology. Do you think this technology is going to lead to problems in a few years in the second hand market! Is it just something else to go wrong!

mickdw

Im sure some models will have weaknesses while others wont much like with all existing tech. Still it is certainly adding much complexity to the systems for what many would argue is little gain.

EPM

Stop start is a con. Bar emission regulations they don't save that much in the real world.

-Corkie-

EPM wrote: »

Stop start is a con. Bar emission regulations they don't save that much in the real world.

Good thread. Re stop start it cannot be good for turbos swithcing off like that. I know you can choose to stop but most people wont know that.

ShadowHearth

Useless... Start-stop on 1.6 diesel... Like focus etc...

For turbos it will be a death sentence.


I heard these systems on big engined supercars, but on ****y family car?

It will go wrong, and it will cost alot to repair.

I would honestly love to know how much fuel this crap saves. Would not that sort of system hard on batteries and starter motor?

beachlife

Anything post 2008 will be almost worthless in a few years time (well diesel anyway). We are seeing 08 vehicles with repair bills totaling 5,000 to 7,000 thousand for a years driving!!!

mickdw

beachlife wrote: »

Anything post 2008 will be almost worthless in a few years time (well diesel anyway). We are seeing 08 vehicles with repair bills totaling 5,000 to 7,000 thousand for a years driving!!!

What problems? Injectors, DMF, DPF, Turbos?

beachlife

Drive cycles!!!

If you don't happen to fit into the correct drive cycle then you will be replacing parts to beat the band.
Do NOT buy a diesel if your milage is less than 40k a year only then will you do enough motor way miles to make the software/hardware work.

shedweller

mickdw wrote: »

Im sure some models will have weaknesses while others wont much like with all existing tech. Still it is certainly adding much complexity to the systems for what many would argue is little gain.

+1

I believe there have been changes made (better seals) to allow turbos to withstand being cooked a little more when turned off. Same for shell bearings with hard anodised coatings iirc.

In fairness, very few people, with the exception of motors members, pay any attention to their turbo.
I would hazard a guess that modern cars will have devalued so much by the time turbos give trouble that it would be pointless to repair them.

beachlife

just thinking of the last turbos i replaced, 08 audi ,07 focus, 06 transporter,and lots of older stuff.Turbos go all the time,whether it be down to poor(no) maintenance or ignoring other problems(like the mil or glow plug light flashing )Just look in the auto trader to see how many turbo suppliers there are in the country

kirving

Well, the gains can be apparently up to 10% according to manufacturers.

Obviously thats in city driving, where journeys tend to be shorter anyway, so savings will be reduced if the car is used for long trips. That said, a small saving over the life of the car will quickly add up.

The various systems differ slightly, but I think the BMW system just uses a more robust starter motor than usual, with a more powerful battery that is charged under braking. They're the two main thinks that could go there. Doesn't seem too complicated as I understand it.

Another system monitors the position of the pistons when the engine stops and injects fuel into the correct cylinder before igniting it.

It's not rocket science really, so I think people need to give it more of a chance.

beachlife

Some of the stop start cars use a kind of alternator that is a motor aswell
The car starts first thing in the morning on the "normal" starter,then when up to temp and stopping in heavy traffic the alt will restart using the aux belt
This way you get a seemless restart that can take as little as 400 milli seconds

Dartz

Can't most of them be disabled IIRC, if you're worried about it that much?

Also remember that engines use very little fuel at idle, so the benefits are dubious at best.

mb1725

Fiat tried that about 20 years ago. Anyone remember the Fiat Regatta 'Citymatic' from the 1980's? http://www.italiaspeed.com/2009/cars/fiat/02/regatta_es/1602.html

Daegerty

When i was a wee lad i was always told the engine wears out the most while it's being started. is that no longer true, or was it ever true?

RandomAccess

Daegerty wrote: »

When i was a wee lad i was always told the engine wears out the most while it's being started. is that no longer true, or was it ever true?

That most likely referred to cold starting.
I think i read that the stop start systems only operate after the engine has fully warmed up, but no idea where i saw that..

shogunpower

some of these new cars have electric auxilary oil pumps which keeps pumping oil after the engine turns of which is a god send to the turbos so theres no problem there. the only extra wear that i can see the on the gears on the flywheel.

pajo1981

I've a stop-start TD car with nearly 100k on it and... everything works.

Cars have never been as reliable - the moonbats and geisha worshipers are wrong.

Works a treat on my 07 Prius just shy of 50,000 miles.

Really happy with it!

Dont be at yourself

RandomAccess wrote: »

That most likely referred to cold starting.
I think i read that the stop start systems only operate after the engine has fully warmed up, but no idea where i saw that..

That's at least true of the Fiat Start/Stop system.

Henry Ford III

How do these systems actually work?

After the engine cuts and power is called for does the system crank over the engine until it fires up?

How quick and seamless could it be? It could strain the battery and starter motor so presumably these are uprated?

pajo1981

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How do these systems actually work?

After the engine cuts and power is called for does the system crank over the engine until it fires up?

How quick and seamless could it be? It could strain the battery and starter motor so presumably these are uprated?

It fires up the engine when you push the clutch down. By the time you put her in gear, she's ready to go.

merc3ps

My '00 Honda Insight has stop-start. It only activates when the engine is warm.

I think in the Prius the car starts off on the electric motor and I've no clue what starts the engine, maybe it's like giving a push start?

But you wouldn't notice it at all! The hybrid system really makes a difference compared to the TDI A4!

unkel

beachlife wrote: »

Anything post 2008 will be almost worthless in a few years time (well diesel anyway). We are seeing 08 vehicles with repair bills totaling 5,000 to 7,000 thousand for a years driving!!!

There's a lot to say for buying a brand new diesel with a long warranty. A diesel costs the same as a petrol these days, because of the lower VRT. Then there's the lower motor tax and the substantial saving on fuel, especially if you do a high mileage

But I fear you'll be right about a few years down the line. We might be seeing 5 or 6 year old diesel cars being scrapped because they're no longer economic to repair

Low CO2 fuel emissions = saving the environment?

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid

PaddyFagan

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its instant on the VAG group cars that I have driven, they have uprated start motors to cope with the extra workload. I still think its a bit of a gimmick, if the car desiginers took 2-5% off the weight off the car it would save more on fuel without adding extra tech.

While I have to agree from a technical perspective - I think a lot of these things are about social engineering - the bigest influnce on the economy of a car is the driver. I think the more "in your face" systems, like the auto start-stop and (more clearly) gear change indicators are more about influncing driver behaviour and getting them thinking about economy.

I've driven a few BMWs with the system and never had a problem with it - they all have a button on the dash to switch the system off if it bugs you. Certainly in them it only kicks in when the engine is hot - it also restarts the engine if it starts to cool down too much. I've also experienced it stop cutting the engine if you stop and start a few times quickly in succession (queuing for a roundabout for example).

There many be unexpected wear and tear issues with these over time, but I think the obvious candidates - starter motors and such like - will have been considered before these systems are installed....

Paddy

Idleater

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its instant on the VAG group cars that I have driven, they have uprated start motors to cope with the extra workload. I still think its a bit of a gimmick, if the car desiginers took 2-5% off the weight off the car it would save more on fuel without adding extra tech.

I have it in the MiTo and I don't notice it at all in terms of "slow to re-start". It's much quicker than starting with the key the first time. IIRC in the Fiat/Alfa setup, when the SS kicks in it stops at a certain point in the ignition cycle so that restarting simple. Clutch in, engage gear, release clutch as per normal.

Like I posted in a similar thread before, I'm fairly sure that manufacturers (in my case Fiat/Alfa) have factored in the start and stop functionality in conjunction with engine and turbo development. I know in my case too, the Multiair technology is particularly easy on engine components by altering the pressure in the turbo via a direct external feed as well as the exhaust gas.

PaddyFagan

PaddyFagan wrote: »

While I have to agree from a technical perspective - I think a lot of these things are about social engineering - the bigest influnce on the economy of a car is the driver. I think the more "in your face" systems, like the auto start-stop and (more clearly) gear change indicators are more about influncing driver behaviour and getting them thinking about economy.

I've driven a few BMWs with the system and never had a problem with it - they all have a button on the dash to switch the system off if it bugs you. Certainly in them it only kicks in when the engine is hot - it also restarts the engine if it starts to cool down too much. I've also experienced it stop cutting the engine if you stop and start a few times quickly in succession (queuing for a roundabout for example).

There many be unexpected wear and tear issues with these over time, but I think the obvious candidates - starter motors and such like - will have been considered before these systems are installed....

Paddy

I agree paddy to a point, but I think the prius works and that's got crap loads of technology + they are proven to be reliable up to 300,000 miles. And it does make a difference in consumption and I used to be a major diesel fan. But I got the prius for a really good price and the cheapest diesel I could find was at least 4-5k more expensive with 30-40000 more miles on the clock! Diesel is not always the best choice any more, And our tax is based solely on C02 emissions when in fact there is far more dangerous and toxic emissions from diesels that we should worry a lot more about, instead the Irish Government gives cheaper tax on the most polluting cars, that is Diesels! And diesel fuel. Wait until the E.U Diesel tax comes into force in a few years, I can guarantee people will not be driving Diesels in a few years time!

I would really love the new model prius! I'm converted dare I saw it!

Wait until 2014 and you will see how expensive Diesel cars will get with the Euro 6 emissions!

Even Mercedes say in the near future they will have to consider the possibility of not making Diesel cars because it will be a headache to control emissions, and lets face it the good old days of simple diesels are long gone, that's what I really liked about them!

Mercedes fuel cell on the way 2015! Priced similar to diesel hybrid, or maybe end up being a lot closer to diesel car prices then?

And the Irish Government are putting all their money into charging infrastructure and battery car grants and the E.S.B too, madness!

Idleater

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Slightly off topic but how have you found the Multiair engine? I have heard rumour of less than stellar Mpg. Its a great design from the FIAT engine boys.

I've the 1.4 turbo petrol (135) and find it great. A really large amount of torque from really low down (1750 +) and the mpg actually quite good (obviously not as good as manufacturer quoted values). The twinair (in the new 500) has more disparity between claims and reality.
I'm currently getting between 6.5 and 7.0 l/100 k mixed driving on a tank by tank basis, though mostly openish suburban with the occasional trip through Dublin.

The power is the best part - when in Dynamic mode it has a lovely smooth delivery. No lag or sudden drop off that I noticed when driving diesels with narrow power bands.

Idleater

Idleater wrote: »

I've the 1.4 turbo petrol (135) and find it great. A really large amount of torque from really low down (1750 +) and the mpg actually quite good (obviously not as good as manufacturer quoted values). The twinair (in the new 500) has more disparity between claims and reality.
I'm currently getting between 6.5 and 7.0 l/100 k mixed driving on a tank by tank basis, though mostly openish suburban with the occasional trip through Dublin.

The power is the best part - when in Dynamic mode it has a lovely smooth delivery. No lag or sudden drop off that I noticed when driving diesels with narrow power bands.

6.5 and 7.0 l/100 km

Prius 4.1-4.5 l/100km easy. Motorway 5.3.5.5

Now when I convert it to plugin 2.3 l/100km mixed or all ev mode 20 miles

And it's not a slow car at all!

pajo1981

Mercedes fuel cell on the way 2015!

Pigs will fly.

Priced similar to diesel hybrid, or maybe end up being a lot closer to diesel car prices then?

Flying pigs again.

And the Irish Government are putting all their money into charging infrastructure and battery car grants and the E.S.B too, madness!

Battery powered cars exist. Fuel cell powered cars (not including the half million dollar insight) don't.

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But your driving a Prius, id prefer to walk.

Yeah sure there are much nicer cars around, I love my brothers A5 and it's really fun to drive, but he has plenty of money and I don't, and I wouldn't waste it on brand new cars either, Economics was my decision in buying the car, cheaper to run than the A4, less maintenance, cheaper maintenance, etc, got it for a bloody good price!

And really at 31 my boy racing days are over (1 head on was enough for me) and usually I'm in the car with my girlfriend and get the bo***x eat off of me if I go over the speed limit, :mad: if I go to over take, I just make the stereo is blasting first! so what's the point? and I have 0 points and don't want any, all too tempting when you got the poke!

The Prius is surprisingly fast though to be honest, and it's a big enough car, and automatic it might not have the shove of a TDI but it's got oodles of torque from the electric motor, and I'm a happy chappy with plenty of torque, makes driving a lot easier! The thing sure climbs hills! Wheel spin and torque steer can be an issue, esp when taking off at blind junctions!

Seriously though fuel is so expensive now, I would rather spend it on something useful than giving it to the Government!

pajo1981

pajo1981 wrote: »

Pigs will fly.



Flying pigs again.



Battery powered cars exist. Fuel cell powered cars (not including the half million dollar insight) don't.

Hi Pajo1981,

Yes the Mercedes fuel cell or the F-Cell B class will be available in 2015 (not in Ireland) it's already on the road for testing purposes.

But of course Ireland will not have a hydrogen infrastructure and the E.S.B are hoping we don't too because they have the most to gain meanwhile normal cars and fuel will get a lot more expensive and people who drive longer distances will have to keep paying it!

The price? well we can speculate until the cows come home, we will have to wait and see. The E.U 6 regulations will however dictate the future for Diesels, and the future E.U diesel tax, shur you would be insane to buy one then no?

Yes the battery car is here, but only for the range and charging issues kind of makes them useless for a lot of people. The Leaf Gen II is supposed to have a range of 200 miles, fine, but if it takes 8 hrs from empty to charge it makes sense it will take 16 hrs to charge twice the capacity etc, fast charging? not possible for domestic users and never will be!


Battery cars are great for a lot of people but I would not buy one because we like to go off for longer drives when the weather is nice, battery car forget it, and not many can afford 30k for an ev and run a 2nd car!

Of course it will be in the end an E.U decision to go hydrogen and we will probably be the last ones that do. The technologies are there to make it I.E Nuclear (Thorium) I created a thread on that already but no one seems to be interested!

mickdw

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But your driving a Prius, id prefer to walk.

My only experience of stop start is in the lexus gs 450h. These hybrid systems are really different and shouldnt be compared with stop start cars where the engine has to be restarted each time as opposed to the hybrid cars electric propulsion.

The hybrid system is obviously much more suited to stop start with the electric motors being always at the ready meaning no restarting of the engine being needed. I have to say that when the petrol engine does start in that lexus 3.5 V6, it is absolutely seamless. Cant see how a 1.6 tdi would be so nice though.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

My only experience of stop start is in the lexus gs 450h. These hybrid systems are really different and shouldnt be compared with stop start cars where the engine has to be restarted each time as opposed to the hybrid cars electric propulsion.

The hybrid system is obviously much more suited to stop start with the electric motors being always at the ready meaning no restarting of the engine being needed. I have to say that when the petrol engine does start in that lexus 3.5 V6, it is absolutely seamless. Cant see how a 1.6 tdi would be so nice though.

3.5 V6, oh the envy!

pajo1981

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Pajo1981,

Yes the Mercedes fuel cell or the F-Cell B class will be available in 2015 (not in Ireland) it's already on the road for testing purposes.

But of course Ireland will not have a hydrogen infrastructure and the E.S.B are hoping we don't too because they have the most to gain meanwhile normal cars and fuel will get a lot more expensive and people who drive longer distances will have to keep paying it!

The price? well we can speculate until the cows come home, we will have to wait and see. The E.U 6 regulations will however dictate the future for Diesels, and the future E.U diesel tax, shur you would be insane to buy one then no?

Yes the battery car is here, but only for the range and charging issues kind of makes them useless for a lot of people. The Leaf Gen II is supposed to have a range of 200 miles, fine, but if it takes 8 hrs from empty to charge it makes sense it will take 16 hrs to charge twice the capacity etc, fast charging? not possible for domestic users and never will be!


Battery cars are great for a lot of people but I would not buy one because we like to go off for longer drives when the weather is nice, battery car forget it, and not many can afford 30k for an ev and run a 2nd car!

Of course it will be in the end an E.U decision to go hydrogen and we will probably be the last ones that do. The technologies are there to make it I.E Nuclear (Thorium) I created a thread on that already but no one seems to be interested!

Yes the battery car is here, but only for the range and charging issues kind of makes them useless for a lot of people.

Actually, for the vast majority of trips, the leaf's range is more than adequate.

8 hour per charge? You can quick-charge to 80% capacity in half an hour.

Batteries are simpler, considerably more efficient, and a commodity item.

Battery cars will continue to improve while fuel cells will stay on the drawing board.


edit:

"but if it takes 8 hrs from empty to charge it makes sense it will take 16 hrs to charge twice the capacity etc, fast charging? not possible for domestic users and never will be! "

Actually the max charge rate of a battery is proportional to its capacity, so no, if won't take double the time to charge.

Charge points can be set up for peanuts - you'll prob see a lot of them around as the e-cars become popular.

pajo1981

pajo1981 wrote: »

Actually, for the vast majority of trips, the leaf's range is more than adequate.

8 hour per charge? You can quick-charge to 80% capacity in half an hour.

Batteries are simpler, considerably more efficient, and a commodity item.

Battery cars will continue to improve while fuel cells will stay on the drawing board.

8 hours Pajo for normal 220 volt domestic charging and only fast charging will be available for now on the motorway network every 50 kms or so, and they have no plans to install them on the Dublin to Waterford motorway for some reason! yes they are suitable for a lot of journeys but for those who commute there is little use for them.

Batteries are improving and it's astonishing what we have in the E-Bike world already or the R.C community! Seriously it makes E.V look years behind, Though in fairness when you are dealing with cars you have to make sure they are ultra safe! I'm talking about charge time, capacity has not improved all that much, (yet)

I think what we might see is not just battery cars or hydrogen but the option of the two or perhaps a plug in hydrogen car, with the option of using cheap electricity for short trips or Hydrogen for longer distance. Though I don't know if car manufacturers will be able to afford to make the two!

And I agree that battery cars are much more efficient, especially when you take into account the fact that it takes so much energy to make Hydrogen, which (at the moment) would be much better put into batteries, however this is where Nuclear comes in for making hydrogen, using Thorium of course and L.F.T.R reactors, it should be our way forward for all our energy needs, we actually don't need fossil fuels and there is no energy crisis, if the oil runs out so bloody what!

I think this discussion belongs in my thread "electric cars and electricity" please someone post there, I'm sad nobody has the interest yet!

Actually the GM Volt is one interesting car, and has the best of both worlds, I can see companies abusing it though by only using petrol and not bothering to charge it while benefiting from reduced taxes! The same happened with flexi fuel cars, people got the vrt reduction and only used petrol because they were scared they might have to get it serviced more often!

The Volt + ethanol provided of course it doesn't interfere with food production! we still need to generate the electricity and renewables are not going to do it, they will only ever play a small part!

pajo1981

Why not use these Thorium reactors to charge conventional batteries, then?

As for domestic charging, the current rating on the supply could surely just be upgraded- to reduce charge times?

I'll check out your other thread in a while.

pajo1981

pajo1981 wrote: »

Why not use these Thorium reactors to charge conventional batteries, then?

As for domestic charging, the current rating on the supply could surely just be upgraded- to reduce charge times?

I'll check out your other thread in a while.

Thorium was not fully developed because the Americans discovered they could not make nukes from them and the Guy who discovered Thorium was a big promoter of it until the nuclear industry sacked him!

India is building Thorium reactors, but I don't think they are the L.F.T.R type, and I'm not sure of the benefits or not of what they are doing, I have not researched that enough.

But it can be done, and would generate employment here, What we could do on this tiny Island is incredible if we only put our minds to it and forget about recession talk and talk about getting us out of it!

Fact we need energy, fossil fuels is costing us what Nuclear would anyway, money point cost 1 Billion to build in 1980 I think it was and they are spending millions on the god damn station to make it E.U emissions compliant! And that's to import more foreign coal!

How much can us Irish take in fossil fuel taxes? my guess is it won't be long before people give up work for the dole because they can't afford to drive or take the bus!

Anyone driving Carlow to Dublin every day and many other commuters are easily spending 100 Euros + a week on fuel, never mind paying for the car and maintenance, how long can that continue, how much more can people take? it's completely unnecessary and mainly because of the tax, and it will get a lot worse in the coming years especially if the E.U get their way and put a E.U tax on diesel! How many people like to go off at weekends or bank holidays, and can't now, how many businesses loose out, the likes of B&B's, hotels, pubs, etc because of fuel prices?

We can import fossil fuels until they run out but that won't change the fact we will need Nuclear some day, but how many more Billions are we going to spend on fossil fuels?

As regarding updating house wiring, it isn't possible, you need 3 phase and that's way too expensive and I doubt the electricity companies have the capacity to allow everyone fast charging, I doubt it very much!

That's why I am a big believer in Hydrogen for transport, I used to think battery e.v's were going to be the answer and to many they are, but for most people they won't! Maybe the option of both?

kona

The prius has alot more to go wrong with it than a diesel. It has two motors and a battery pack, and a fairly complex epicycle geartrain to interconnect the two motors and the Engine.

kona

kona wrote: »

The prius has alot more to go wrong with it than a diesel. It has two motors and a battery pack, and a fairly complex epicycle geartrain to interconnect the two motors and the Engine.

Indeed it has a lot to it, but it has proven itself to be very reliable in the field and last well over 300,000 miles. And the batteries have been very reliable. Tests on batteries have shown very little reduction in capacity after 300,000 miles. Diesels are far from trouble free these days as I know all too well, shame!

Electric motors are very reliable, I think a lot more than Engines, they need 0 maintenance or almost 0, they do fail, but I think given the fact the prius motor engages only for low speed and acceleration, I think they last very long indeed. I have not ever heard of Prius motor or engine failure, I have heard of the transaxel failing due to poor maintenance and failure of the mechanics to carry out essential maintenance on it, but I am aware of it and will be making sure it gets all the maintenance it requires. I could however change the fluid myself!

I think though the Prius has proven to be one of the most reliable cars on the road. I did my research on it and I'm happy with my decision. And it's cheap to service, no cam belts either!

kona

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed it has a lot to it, but it has proven itself to be very reliable in the field and last well over 300,000 miles. And the batteries have been very reliable. Tests on batteries have shown very little reduction in capacity after 300,000 miles. Diesels are far from trouble free these days as I know all too well, shame!

Electric motors are very reliable, I think a lot more than Engines, they need 0 maintenance or almost 0, they do fail, but I think given the fact the prius motor engages only for low speed and acceleration, I think they last very long indeed. I have not ever heard of Prius motor or engine failure, I have heard of the transaxel failing due to poor maintenance and failure of the mechanics to carry out essential maintenance on it, but I am aware of it and will be making sure it gets all the maintenance it requires. I could however change the fluid myself!

I think though the Prius has proven to be one of the most reliable cars on the road. I did my research on it and I'm happy with my decision. And it's cheap to service, no cam belts either!

No cam belts? its hardly pushrod is it? or dosit use gears? Electric motors are so reliable because there are like 4 parts, a ICE has thousands!

kona

kona wrote: »

No cam belts? its hardly pushrod is it? or dosit use gears? Electric motors are so reliable because there are like 4 parts, a ICE has thousands!

Nope, it uses a chain!

yeah motors are super, I can't wait for a proper all E.V!

kona

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, it uses a chain!

yeah motors are super, I can't wait for a proper all E.V!

Mitsubishi and citroen have em on the market. Saw em at the energy show. They wernt spectacular and both share the same technology so theres not much difference.
The Mitsubishi had a hot girl so id go with that! haha