Hydrogen question

yeppydeppy

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and it is a combustible gas so why can't it be used to fuel cars the way LPG is?

robtri

it can and it does Honda Insight....

while it is the most abundant element in the universe, it is always attached to other elements.. like O... producing water H20...
the problem arises in seperating the hydorgen element from what it is attached too...

hydrogen is very usable, but there are a myriad of other issues around it... producing it, storing it and transporting it..

bladespin

Storage and handling are the main problems with hydrogen.

Cookie_Monster

bladespin wrote: »

Storage and handling are the main problems with hydrogen.

not really.

cheap, energy efficient production of hydrogen is next tom impossible currently without huge fossil fuel input. that's the real problem. H can already be stored and transported safely enough with a membrane of some sort that was announced recently.

Capt'n Midnight

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not really.

cheap, energy efficient production of hydrogen is next tom impossible currently without huge fossil fuel input. that's the real problem. H can already be stored and transported safely enough with a membrane of some sort that was announced recently.

I'd like to know more about the membrane.



Rough rules of thumb if you have Hydrogen
you are loosing up to 1% a day due to evaporation/diffusion
and you use compressed Hydrogen to get a decent energy density about 10% of the enegry is used in compression
It's the lightest liquid / gas, this means it's impractical in applications where weight isn't an overriding concern.

you'd be better off fixing the hydrogen into methanol and using that in petrol engines / fuel cells.

Hydrogen is an Energy store. It doesn't exist in appreciable amounts in our oxygen rich atmosphere so you have to make it and that takes energy. Even if you use fuel cells you are probably getting less well to wheel efficieny than using diesel

Neodymium

The most common ways of producing hydrogen are electrolysis and using fossil fuels to produce hydrogen.

Currently with electrolysis it requires more energy to remove the hydrogen from whatever it is attached to (usually water) than the amount of energy which is released from burning the hydrogen, so it's a false economy.

The other most common method is the steam reforming of fossil fuels but this also requires alot of energy.

There are researchers in UCD at the moment looking at using iridium as a catalyst to produce hydrogen. Link here

Capt'n Midnight

Neodymium wrote: »

Currently with electrolysis it requires more energy to remove the hydrogen from whatever it is attached to (usually water) than the amount of energy which is released from burning the hydrogen, so it's a false economy.

And that will remain the case until the laws of physics change and then we're talking rips in space time continuium


BTW Plants have been harvesting sunlight to do this for quite a while, again with the trick of linking small steps in energy to carry out a reaction that can't be done directly.

Saw one a while back for a solar panel to convert carbon dioxide into carbon monoxide (poisonous but useful as a gaseous fuel or to make liquid fuel) and oxygen -- the sunlight only provided half the power as yet

Cookie_Monster

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I'd like to know more about the membrane.

so would I but I couldn't find anything when I went to search. I'm fairly sure it was on Discovery channel that I saw it, in relation to transporting it

yeppydeppy

Thanks for all the responses. All I have to do now is come up with an easier, cheaper way of producing hydrogen and I'll be as rich as Bill Gates. I wonder how far away from a hydrogen cloud in space Earth is?

djpbarry

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I wonder how far away from a hydrogen cloud in space Earth is?

About 150 million km.

Capt'n Midnight

yeppydeppy wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses. All I have to do now is come up with an easier, cheaper way of producing hydrogen and I'll be as rich as Bill Gates. I wonder how far away from a hydrogen cloud in space Earth is?

Delta V is quite high allright



some algae give off hydrogen, you can use waste heat from powerstation cooling water to grow them in and they can help balance the carbon dixode from the power stations too

gman2k

yeppydeppy wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses. All I have to do now is come up with an easier, cheaper way of producing hydrogen and I'll be as rich as Bill Gates.

Nuclear power stations can produce cheap electricity at off peak times, which is an efficient way to energise the hydrogen production process.

mccabecc

I think that oil companies have such influence that inhibit progress in this areas(hydrogen, electric vehicles) because if concerns would stop producing cars for oil than they would lose everything.

djpbarry

mccabecc wrote: »

I think that oil companies have such influence that inhibit progress in this areas(hydrogen, electric vehicles) because if concerns would stop producing cars for oil than they would lose everything.

I’d be surprised if so-called “oil companies” were not at the forefront of such research. Oil isn’t going to last forever, so any “oil company” that isn’t prepared to diversify isn’t going to last very long.

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

I’d be surprised if so-called “oil companies” were not at the forefront of such research. Oil isn’t going to last forever, so any “oil company” that isn’t prepared to diversify isn’t going to last very long.

most of them are they spend shed loads of money each year on R&D into alternative energy sources... as far as i remember BP is big into Hydrogen

Capt'n Midnight

mccabecc wrote: »

I think that oil companies have such influence that inhibit progress in this areas(hydrogen, electric vehicles) because if concerns would stop producing cars for oil than they would lose everything.

if you have hydrogen , carbon dioxide and enegry you can make methanol. Or Hydrogen and Coal. Or just Coal.

methanol is a near direct replacement for petrol , it's been used instead of petrol since 1965 (!) in the Indianapolis 500. (Though recently there is a switch to ethanol)

Oil companies have the distibution neworks and refineries so even if you could invent a cheap as water fuel you would still have to deal with the oil companies and The Revenue.

Amateurish

It can but...
-hydrogen doesnt so much burn as explode causing difficulties in the engine
-the energy density of unpressurised hydrogen is pretty low compared to lpg so at atmospheric pressure hydrogen a tank wont get you far at all
Once you pressurise it or otherwise store it - a fuel cell is a more efficient use of the hydrogen and avoids any issues like production of carbon monoxide or nitrous oxide that you'd get from burning h2 in air like a car does. Also a fuel cell car is ready made to make use of regenerative braking so helping efficiency.
Electrolysis powered by wind, water or the sun (at efficiencies of up to 89% - find a fossil fuel process that matches that and I'll invest) could be the key to harmonising electricity production with use - be it on large scale plants or when you plug in your h2 powered car into the mains to charge or maybe supply the grid depending on need.
If you really want an internal combustion engine on h2 producing only water..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJVzySk0Pks